RX-Snake: Engine Related

[Vettezuki]

This is a budget project isn't it? We're going with a carb, the stock tank and a mechanical pump will be fine. I'd consider bending some 3/8 hardline for it, but that's about all that she'll need.

Budget, yes. Ghetto, no. At the moment I see stock tank and electric pump, but we'll see.

[joedls]

I'm growing slightly concerned about finding the necessary parts for the 174. We'll need to have a backup.


Yeah, I'll do some more research this week and see if I can buy the parts somewhere. But if I can't and we don't have any luck at the Long Beach swapmeet, I'd say you're gonna have to go another route.

[Vettezuki]

Just distract Adam while I pull that blower off his Vette. :D

If the 174 doesn't work out, and unless something else free doesn't pop up :), I'd be curious to go Turbo. Sure, there's that turbo manifold thing to deal with, but we might be able to get away with our stock rear end in that case since it won't hit as hard as the roots.

[joedls]

I picked up an oil pan from an 87 Mustang today for $5 at the swap meet, if you wanna use that.

So, you wanna use this?

[Vettezuki]

So, you wanna use this?

Rear, Front, Double Sump?

[Vettezuki]

See poll on direction if the 174 doesn't work out. We still have some flexibility here. The only commitments we've really made are SBF and an NHRA style cage good to 10.

[enkeivette]

I don't like the options, I vote Turbo and IRS. And you forgot yet another option, nitrous.

Bird, hands off my blower! My 3K lb Vette needs it more than our light lil rice rocket.

[Vettezuki]

I don't like the options, I vote Turbo and IRS. And you forgot yet another option, nitrous.

Bird, hands off my blower! My 3K lb Vette needs it more than our light lil rice rocket.

How do you like the new poll option pumpkin-sauce?

[enkeivette]

I'm all about it, squash-puree. I changed FI to forced induc. I read it three times thinking, why is FI (fuel injection) an opposing option to a turbo...

I'm talking to some guy on an RX7 forum right now who has some 3" flares, he's sending me pics. I'll be sure to post.

[Vettezuki]

I'm all about it, squash-puree. I changed FI to forced induc. I read it three times thinking, why is FI (fuel injection) an opposing option to a turbo...

I'm talking to some guy on an RX7 forum right now who has some 3" flares, he's sending me pics. I'll be sure to post.

You transformed pumkin-sauce into squash puree but didn't figure FI was forced induction . . . :leaving:

Let's see what happens with the 174 and what opportunities pop up. I'm going to ask around about spare bits for a 174 with some other sources. The turbo sure would be fun, but it'd be considerably more complex overall to make work right. Not that I'm afraid of that by any means. :drink:

[enkeivette]

What's the low down on this blower? What does it need to spin and compress?

[Vettezuki]

What's the low down on this blower? What does it need to spin and compress?

Shaft housing and end plate:
http://www.motorgen.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13376#post13376

[enkeivette]

With all of the skilled welders on this project we can't fix that end plate? What's wrong with the shaft housing?

[Vettezuki]

It's looking kinda bleak on the 174. I talked to Troy at Ford Performance Solutions today and he said he used to run one long ago, and several broken units came through his shop, but nobody wanted to touch them; something to the effect of "can't be rebuilt."

He suggested that since B&M now own McLeod we might call over there (local) and see if they just happened to have any blower bits laying around or know somebody that might be able to repair it for a reasonable price. Didn't sound too optimistic though.

[Vettezuki]

FYI: Troy said these blocks are safe to about 550 BHP stock, and with a main support to about 650 BHP.

[94cobra69ss396]

FYI: Troy said these blocks are safe to about 550 BHP stock, and with a main support to about 650 BHP.

If the blower isn't going to be able to be fixed then lets ditch the hydraulic roller and put in a solid flat tappet that will turn some high rpms. Something like this Lunati (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D08601&autoview=sku). Then add a good single plane intake like a Victor Jr. We can also keep the independent rearend and the 4.10 gears.

[Vettezuki]

If the blower isn't going to be able to be fixed then lets ditch the hydraulic roller and put in a solid flat tappet that will turn some high rpms. Something like this Lunati (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D08601&autoview=sku). Then add a good single plane intake like a Victor Jr. We can also keep the independent rearend and the 4.10 gears.

I think this is an excellent baseline fall back, but I'd still like to explore the possibility of other options. What about a Paxton Novi 1000, or other cheap centrifugal? I have the resources to mill a custom bracket. And don't tell me a Mad Max style turbo setup wouldn't be kinda fun. :smack:

[07gtpony]

Ok, at this point, I think a turbo kit would be the cheepest way to go. Get a T70 and boost it to the moon!!!! Should go solid anyways!!! Solid rolller.... Y pipe to single turbo, shit don't even need a intercooler, NOS or METH. Need to spend money on a blow thru carb... or an aftermarket FI system. Carb would be cheeper. :thumbs_up:

[07gtpony]

If you guys going to go N/A Ill take that low compression engine... I have a core you guys can build, a 87 roller 302... Just let me know :thumbs_up:.

[Vettezuki]

Ok, at this point, I think a turbo kit would be the cheepest way to go. Get a T70 and boost it to the moon!!!! Should go solid anyways!!! Solid rolller.... Y pipe to single turbo, shit don't even need a intercooler, NOS or METH. Need to spend money on a blow thru carb... or an aftermarket FI system. Carb would be cheeper. :thumbs_up:

Are there off-the-shelf turbo manifolds for the 289/302? I haven't looked too much.

[07gtpony]

Many guys just flip around stock headers and build a y pipe to the turbo, you can buy turbo kits for a fox all day on ebay. But with it being an Rx7, you can make a custom set of heards, not to hard to make, some header flanges and some U pipes a little experience, a saw to cut pipe and a good welder.

[Vettezuki]

Many guys just flip around stock headers and build a y pipe to the turbo, you can buy turbo kits for a fox all day on ebay. But with it being an Rx7, you can make a custom set of heards, not to hard to make, some header flanges and some U pipes a little experience, a saw to cut pipe and a good welder.

Thanks for the info. We're going to have enough to do as it is, so I would punt on this much fab. I'll check out some of the turbo kits and see if they might work.

I am also considering centrifugal units like the Paxton (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching&item=180322004251&viewitem=).

[94cobra69ss396]

Thanks for the info. We're going to have enough to do as it is, so I would punt on this much fab. I'll check out some of the turbo kits and see if they might work.

I am also considering centrifugal units like the Paxton (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching&item=180322004251&viewitem=).

A centrifugal would be a lot easier then a turbo or twin turbos. I think the only way to make a turbo fit in the engine compartment with the V8 would be to build a complete tube frame and get rid of the strut towers. I don't think all the piping will fit unless you do or it will be really ugly. I also wouldn't use anything less than DOM for the frame which is a lot more money and a lot of work. I would stick to either a roots or centrifugal or N/A.

[Vettezuki]

A centrifugal would be a lot easier then a turbo or twin turbos. I think the only way to make a turbo fit in the engine compartment with the V8 would be to build a complete tube frame and get rid of the strut towers. I don't think all the piping will fit unless you do or it will be really ugly. I also wouldn't use anything less than DOM for the frame which is a lot more money and a lot of work. I would stick to either a roots or centrifugal or N/A.

Ok, then that's that, I want to keep our adventures within the realm of reason for this outing. I'll forget about turbo time . . . this time.

What about that Paxton unit? Are they no bueno? I do have some reasources for desiging and CNC if we keep it under control, like a bracket.

BTW, FMI, is the exhaust port size/spacing on the 89+ 5.0L different than the old 289/302? I'm guessing yes. Just before reading this post, I saw this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Turbo-KIT-for-Ford-5-0L-Dual-Mustang-5-0-Intercooler_W0QQitemZ150321300410QQadiZ2865QQadnZC arQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?ha sh=item150321300410&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318) kit.

[joedls]

BTW, FMI, is the exhaust port size/spacing on the 89+ 5.0L different than the old 289/302? I'm guessing yes.

Same spacing.

[Vettezuki]

Same spacing.

Mmm, so theoretically those kits would fit the motor at least. . .

[Vettezuki]

Just exploring here, but I wonder if there isn't enough room . . .

Here's a 5.0 in an FC, pretty much exactly where we'll be at. There seems to be considerable clearance on the sides of the motor.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/500/484414b.jpg

Here's an off the shelf turbo kit for a 5.0. The entire question is the room where the turbos go, which seem like they'd be somewhat behind the strut towers. This kit is *only* $600 + shipping for everything shown.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/500/MUSTANG1.JPG

[Vettezuki]

I've updated the poll options, removing the axle issue.

NA is obviously the smart easy choice, requiring only a different cam and intake and can use the cheapest fueling solution. Maybe a set of hi-comp pistons. :huh:

Centrifugal can be packaged and is a nice way to make simple power.

Twin Turbo is the most exotic, and may be out of scope for this project for complexity. But IF a 5.0 Kit works, the total real cost between the TT and the Centrifugal is not so great and possibly less since we would no longer have LT header cost, using the turbo manifolds instead.

Personally, I will enjoy any of these. Controlling for budget and difficulty, NA is the smart choice. HOWEVER, the purpose of the car is to be a reasonable challenge for us and to do some promoting for the site. Twin Turbo in front of anything packs a little more punch. :bigthumbsup:

We'll see. The answer may be made for us by circumstance.

[enkeivette]

Looks like those would fit, if not we could pound and cut and persuade. Remember that dude who fit the centrifugal blower with the Vic Jr, the Mighty Demon, and the carb bonnet under a stock hood with stock control arms? :D If there's a will there's a way.

My only concern would be power output. Those are itty bitty Turbos, how much air can they push? With a well aspirated engine those will need to push a lot of air to create any sort of decent boost backpressure.

Ben, don't back down. She needs boost to win the crowd.

[94cobra69ss396]

Looks like those would fit, if not we could pound and cut and persuade. Remember that dude who fit the centrifugal blower with the Vic Jr, the Mighty Demon, and the carb bonnet under a stock hood with stock control arms? :D If there's a will there's a way.

My only concern would be power output. Those are itty bitty Turbos, how much air can they push? With a well aspirated engine those will need to push a lot of air to create any sort of decent boost backpressure.

Ben, don't back down. She needs boost to win the crowd.

I thought the turbos on my buddies GTO were small too but he put down 550rwhp. Also, the guy he bought the kit off of made 630rwhp with a 6.0 that was built more than my buddies 5.7.

Ben, it looks like it might fit as long as there is enough room in front of the engine. Those kits put one of the pipes across the front of the motor which might not fit. I could measure the Cobra and then the RX-Snake to see how they compare.

[Vettezuki]

I thought the turbos on my buddies GTO were small too but he put down 550rwhp. Also, the guy he bought the kit off of made 630rwhp with a 6.0 that was built more than my buddies 5.7.

Ben, it looks like it might fit as long as there is enough room in front of the engine. Those kits put one of the pipes across the front of the motor which might not fit. I could measure the Cobra and then the RX-Snake to see how they compare.

When you get a chance, do some measuring and educated guessing. I'm certainly intrigued by this possibility if the blower doesn't work.

Adam, those are 60 Trim T3/T4 Turbos according to the Ebay ad. Not entirely sure what that means for flow, but keep in mind the upper limit for the block, with main support is about 650 BHP. If we go the turbo route and since this is now a trailer queen I'd seriously consider setting it up for E85. Turbos love that stuff and with the tuning it makes possible, I'm sure we could make all the power the block could handle. Also, they'll spool nice and fast.

[94cobra69ss396]

When you get a chance, do some measuring and educated guessing. I'm certainly intrigued by this possibility if the blower doesn't work.

Okay, this is what we have. The Cobra is 35" from the firewall to the front of the radiator and 33.5" from strut tower to strut tower. The RX is 35" from the firewall to the top mount of the radiator support and 30" to the bottom mount and 33" from strut tower to strut tower. However, I think we could move the radiator forward (we have to make our own mounts anyways for a new radiator) and we would then have enough room.

While I was at it I also measured the axle tubes on the Explorer. They are 20" for the left side and 17" for the right. However, according to Grannys Speed Shop their torque arm kit works for either the Mustang or Explorer 8.8 so we should be able to put one in if that's what you want to do.

'86-'91 RX-7 TA/SA 8.8 Basic Kit includes...
...Torque arm assembly (Mustang or Explorer 8.8)
...Torque arm rear anchor plate
...(5) grade 8 rear cover flange bolts
...Torque arm front yoke / driveline loop assembly
...(2) rubber chassis isolator bushing sets
...(4) Delrin T/A nose bushings
...(2) lower link front bracket assemblies
...(4) lower link front bracket back-up plates w/ (16) bolts/nuts
...(2) lower link rear bracket sets (weld-on)
...(2) lower shock adapter bushings
...watts linkage center pivot assembly (weld-on)
...watts linkage upper/left chassis bracket
...watts linkage lower/right chassis bracket
............................package price...$965.

[Vettezuki]

Okay, this is what we have. The Cobra is 35" from the firewall to the front of the radiator and 33.5" from strut tower to strut tower. The RX is 35" from the firewall to the top mount of the radiator support and 30" to the bottom mount and 33" from strut tower to strut tower. However, I think we could move the radiator forward (we have to make our own mounts anyways for a new radiator) and we would then have enough room.

While I was at it I also measured the axle tubes on the Explorer. They are 20" for the left side and 17" for the right. However, according to Grannys Speed Shop their torque arm kit works for either the Mustang or Explorer 8.8 so we should be able to put one in if that's what you want to do.

'86-'91 RX-7 TA/SA 8.8 Basic Kit includes...
...Torque arm assembly (Mustang or Explorer 8.8)
...Torque arm rear anchor plate
...(5) grade 8 rear cover flange bolts
...Torque arm front yoke / driveline loop assembly
...(2) rubber chassis isolator bushing sets
...(4) Delrin T/A nose bushings
...(2) lower link front bracket assemblies
...(4) lower link front bracket back-up plates w/ (16) bolts/nuts
...(2) lower link rear bracket sets (weld-on)
...(2) lower shock adapter bushings
...watts linkage center pivot assembly (weld-on)
...watts linkage upper/left chassis bracket
...watts linkage lower/right chassis bracket
............................package price...$965.

Okily-dokily, if the 174 don't work, we're going TT. No guts, no glory.

I'm still mulling over diff options.

[BRUTAL64]

Okily-dokily, if the 174 don't work, we're going TT. No guts, no glory.

I'm still mulling over diff options.

Turbos---are you sure you want to go that way?? Seems like a lot of work to do what a bolt on or belt driven super charger can do more simply. Turbos that I have had to deal with over the years were ALWAYS a pain in the ass. :judge:


My Dad has had a Vortec on his truck for over 15 years and it has NEVER needed any work!!!!!!!

[joedls]

Not entirely sure what that means for flow, but keep in mind the upper limit for the block, with main support is about 650 BHP.


If you plan on pushing that block to 650 HP, you should probably invest in a valley girdle as well.

[94cobra69ss396]

If you plan on pushing that block to 650 HP, you should probably invest in a valley girdle as well.

I've read in Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford that the valley is actually the weakest link in the block. I don't have either on the Cobra but I'm only pushing around 500hp. Although it is also a daily driver and does see the track.

[Vettezuki]

If you plan on pushing that block to 650 HP, you should probably invest in a valley girdle as well.

These bits a are a little new to me. Troy mentioned a "main support" and that it's necessarry to safely push to 650BHP. Is a "main support" the same thing as a valley girdle?

Overall, I'm hoping we can fix the 174, it'll be plenty of power for hooliganism and rather cheaper overall. However, the idea of a TT is kind of exciting, so if the 174 doesn't work it'll be fun. Running E85 with even a pretty moderate TT setup, pushing 650BHP out of the 302 with the new heads shouldn't be that difficult. And then, boys and girls, we have a bit of a beast on our hands.

[Vettezuki]

Turbos---are you sure you want to go that way?? Seems like a lot of work to do what a bolt on or belt driven super charger can do more simply. Turbos that I have had to deal with over the years were ALWAYS a pain in the ass. :judge:


My Dad has had a Vortec on his truck for over 15 years and it has NEVER needed any work!!!!!!!

Turbos make a really cool sound and they look neat.:judge: The kids will love it and it's a bit of a crossover back into "import" thinking. I don't want to fully tip my hand, but there is a method to my madness.

[94cobra69ss396]

These bits a are a little new to me. Troy mentioned a "main support" and that it's necessarry to safely push to 650BHP. Is a "main support" the same thing as a valley girdle?

Overall, I'm hoping we can fix the 174, it'll be plenty of power for hooliganism and rather cheaper overall. However, the idea of a TT is kind of exciting, so if the 174 doesn't work it'll be fun. Running E85 with even a pretty moderate TT setup, pushing 650BHP out of the 302 with the new heads shouldn't be that difficult. And then, boys and girls, we have a bit of a beast on our hands.

The main support and the valley girdle are two different things. The main support ties all the main caps together. The valley girdle is like a truss that stiffens the valley to help keep the block from flexing.

[BRUTAL64]

The main support and the valley girdle are two different things. The main support ties all the main caps together. The valley girdle is like a truss that stiffens the valley to help keep the block from flexing.

:thumbs_up: Right on.

[BRUTAL64]

Turbos make a really cool sound and they look neat.:judge: The kids will love it and it's a bit of a crossover back into "import" thinking. I don't want to fully tip my hand, but there is a method to my madness.

Ya da boss!:D

[joedls]

The main support and the valley girdle are two different things. The main support ties all the main caps together. The valley girdle is like a truss that stiffens the valley to help keep the block from flexing.

I've actually seen 302 blocks that split right down the middle of the valley. That's why I installed a valley girdle and main girdle on my 347 stroker once I cranked it up over 550 HP.

[94cobra69ss396]

Here's a DSS main support system.

http://www.dssracing.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/main%20support%20features.gif

Here's a valley girdle.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/images/VG350-1.gif

[Vettezuki]

Here's a DSS main support system.

Here's a valley girdle.



So, out of curiosity, what's the safe upper limit for BHP when using BOTH. As I recall, Troy said 650BHP with only a main support.

[joedls]

So, out of curiosity, what's the safe upper limit for BHP when using BOTH. As I recall, Troy said 650BHP with only a main support.


I'm not sure, but I wouldn't try to make 650 HP on one of these blocks without a valley girdle.

[07gtpony]

Wow, you guys are throwing out some big number for horse power!!! How fast you guys want to go???? 650HP??? This is not a fat ass termi you guys are building... 450hp your going high 10s??? You guys are planing to build to much power, its almost overkill. 650hp with about the same weight your mid 9s. And any one really drive something that light with that power? Boost is nasty, when it hits, you better grab on to your nuts and keep your eyes down track. I think traction is going to be your main issuse. Anyone ever throw out the idea of a 11:1 set up with some spray?

[Vettezuki]

Wow, you guys are throwing out some big number for horse power!!! How fast you guys want to go???? 650HP??? This is not a fat ass termi you guys are building... 450hp your going high 10s??? You guys are planing to build to much power, its almost overkill. 650hp with about the same weight your mid 9s. And any one really drive something that light with that power? Boost is nasty, when it hits, you better grab on to your nuts and keep your eyes down track. I think traction is going to be your main issuse. Anyone ever throw out the idea of a 11:1 set up with some spray?

In order for Sean to have a chance at running 11s, we have to build a 9 second car. . . :smack:

I'm just exploring the upper ranges of what's possible with the base materials we have. This is not a plan of what we're building. The purpose of the car isn't just to be a practical Get'r Done car, otherwise I'd definitely go hi comp + NO2.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

PS We *might* go twin turbo on RX-Snake. And especially because it's off road only, I'm thinking maybe to go E85. We're going to need some of your experience if we do.

ya for sure im down to help where i can. are u still gonna keep it carbed twin turbo or go throttle body/fuel injection?

also for a turbo dont ever get a turbonetics always go garret....and if you have the money twin scrolled turbo will help out spool up...it should be relatively cheap if you making your own exhaust system.....which means i can do anti-lag on a V-8 OMG!!! i just creamed.

[Vettezuki]

ya for sure im down to help where i can. are u still gonna keep it carbed twin turbo or go throttle body/fuel injection?

also for a turbo dont ever get a turbonetics always go garret....and if you have the money twin scrolled turbo will help out spool up...it should be relatively cheap if you making your own exhaust system.....which means i can do anti-lag on a V-8 OMG!!! i just creamed.


The idea is to be bad ass on a budget and interesting. So probably Blow Through Carb (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8065852009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=) instead of TBI. She'll be a trailer queen so it's okay to be a bit of a bitch.

As for turbo kits, I was looking at one of the dumb cheap eBay Fox Body Turbo Kits. Let me get the link . . .

Ah here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Turbo-KIT-for-Ford-5-0L-Dual-Mustang-5-0-Intercooler_W0QQitemZ150321300410QQadiZ2865QQadnZC arQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?ha sh=item150321300410&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318) it is. Tel me what you see good and bad. We'll deal with the fitment. Our displacement is 5L. Considering this car will be well below 3,000lbs race weight, probably something on the order of 500WHP is plenty.

[big2bird]

ITHINKI would start with a basic N/A, work the bugs out. Dial in the suspension/fuel/brake/handling/safety/practical issues first. THENstart adding/modifying/changing stuff. You have to start somewhere, and walking before running is always good. Work out the basics first. It's not like you can't/won't be changing things when it's done. Race cars constantly morph.:thumbs_up:

[94cobra69ss396]

Bird, a lot of us that are working on this car already have the experience needed to build the engine with the blower, me for an example. This engine with the blower is basically the same that I built for my Cobra. I also built my Chevelle which has gone as fast as 10.35 on a set of 26x8.5/14 M/T slicks so I think we can make the RX-Snake hook up on a little wider tire.

I think if we can't get the blower fixed that we should go N/A but if we can fix the blower we should definitely bolt it on.

[Vettezuki]

Bird, that's certainly wise and prudent advice. If I were doing this by myself, or with only one other person who kinda knew what he was doing, that's certainly the method I would use. I believe this case, there's a enough manpower and knowledge to go somewhat more for the one shot one kill approach. Though I'm sure crap is gonna break and need tweaking in any case.

Since the turbos, IF we go turbo, might require additional clearancing in the engine bay I would want to do them early, so it can be done nicely as part of the body work and paint. In other words, I wouldn't want to NA have that dialed in, then switch to turbo, and find we have to bang and cut, not to mention use a different carb and headers. We have tuning tools (LM2) and resources. Anyway, I'm still looking for 174 parts. There is a blower service here in La Habra that could probably fix it, but the repair to the 174 would be more than the Fox Body TT kit, so that's not too appealing.

[joedls]

There is a blower service here in La Habra that could probably fix it, but the repair to the 174 would be more than the Fox Body TT kit, so that's not too appealing.

Funny. I just emailed them to ask about purchasing the parts.

[joedls]

A little inspiration. This a video of the engine I had built for my 68 GT/CS with the Holley 174 blower. This was with 8 PSI of boost, before I increased it to 12 PSI and added water/methanol.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/th_1377.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/?action=view&current=1377.flv)

[94cobra69ss396]

A little inspiration. This a video of the engine I had built for my 68 GT/CS with the Holley 174 blower. This was with 8 PSI of boost, before I increased it to 12 PSI and added water/methanol.

Do you have the dyno sheet from this session? Is this the same cam or equivalent to what's in the 306 Ben has?

[BRUTAL64]

A little inspiration. This a video of the engine I had built for my 68 GT/CS with the Holley 174 blower. This was with 8 PSI of boost, before I increased it to 12 PSI and added water/methanol.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/th_1377.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/?action=view&current=1377.flv)

Now that's what I'm talking about. Fix the 174 and be done. Simple is always the best. KISS!!!!!:motorsmile::bigthumbsup:

[joedls]

Do you have the dyno sheet from this session? Is this the same cam or equivalent to what's in the 306 Ben has?

I took the raw numbers off the dyno sheet and put them in this graph. The cam has .510/. 534 inch lift, 222/232 degree duration @ .050. I don't know what the specs are for the cam in the 306, but it was milder than this one.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

The idea is to be bad ass on a budget and interesting. So probably Blow Through Carb (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8065852009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=) instead of TBI. She'll be a trailer queen so it's okay to be a bit of a bitch.

As for turbo kits, I was looking at one of the dumb cheap eBay Fox Body Turbo Kits. Let me get the link . . .

Ah here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Turbo-KIT-for-Ford-5-0L-Dual-Mustang-5-0-Intercooler_W0QQitemZ150321300410QQadiZ2865QQadnZC arQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?ha sh=item150321300410&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318) it is. Tel me what you see good and bad. We'll deal with the fitment. Our displacement is 5L. Considering this car will be well below 3,000lbs race weight, probably something on the order of 500WHP is plenty.

OOOHHHH SWEET LAWD!!! dont buy that kit man.........jesus those are baby turbo's id say garrett GT28's at best.....in other words they are stock evo turbo's my friend. that kit is gonna give u the image and feel of a manly turbo because the exhaust side is way to big for that intake side....so it will give you lag and kick in with a punch but you arent gonna gain much from it, because the intake side is so small.

you best bet for finding a cheap turbo would be go to some local distibutor for garrett that will just sell you the basic snail set up ask for 2 GT3071R, or 2 GT3271R, or 2 GT3582......

i think i might be able to get a starion guy to make intake pipes...and maybe exhaust if need be but i havent talked to him in ages.

[Vettezuki]

OOOHHHH SWEET LAWD!!! dont buy that kit man.........jesus those are baby turbo's id say garrett GT28's at best.....in other words they are stock evo turbo's my friend. that kit is gonna give u the image and feel of a manly turbo because the exhaust side is way to big for that intake side....so it will give you lag and kick in with a punch but you arent gonna gain much from it, because the intake side is so small.

you best bet for finding a cheap turbo would be go to some local distibutor for garrett that will just sell you the basic snail set up ask for 2 GT3071R, or 2 GT3271R, or 2 GT3582......

i think i might be able to get a starion guy to make intake pipes...and maybe exhaust if need be but i havent talked to him in ages.

Thanks for the info. :thumbs_up: I really am hoping to get the 174 working, for simplicity, power, cost. But turbos are the siren song of the deep. Plus it would give us some rice appeal. :smack: We'll see what this blower service has to say.

[BRUTAL64]

But turbos are the siren song of the deep. Plus it would give us some rice appeal. :smack:
Siren Song?????????????
This time I do NOT want the drugs you are taking. Turbos are a PAIN in the ASS. :suicide:



But whatever you decide to do I'll be here to watch.:smack:

[Vettezuki]

Siren Song?????????????
This time I do NOT want the drugs you are taking. Turbos are a PAIN in the ASS. :suicide:



But whatever you decide to do I'll be here to watch.:smack:

CornFed gets 500+AWHP out of 2L using a little hair dryer and hippy juice, and he only melted one engine learning how to do it so I don't see what the big deal is. :laugh:

BTW, once we firm up on what intake and headers will be going with the heads, you'll be doing more than watching . . . :smack:

[BRUTAL64]

CornFed gets 500+AWHP out of 2L using a little hair dryer and hippy juice, and he only melted one engine learning how to do it so I don't see what the big deal is. :laugh:

BTW, once we firm up on what intake and headers will be going with the heads, you'll be doing more than watching . . . :smack:



Well, all this talk about turbos has PONYBOY (07gtpony) wanting me to tell you guys he WANTS the 174 no matter the condition.:drink::p


BUT< now that I think of it I can put the 174 under my hood.

[joedls]

Well, all this talk about turbos has PONYBOY (07gtpony) wanting me to tell you guys he WANTS the 174 no matter the condition.:drink::p


BUT< now that I think of it I can put the 174 under my hood.


Nope. If we can't get it running for RX Snake, I'm gonna hang on to it. Eventually I'll find a used one at a swapmeet I can use for parts. I've seen them before, just didn't need them then.

[joedls]

Well, all this talk about turbos has PONYBOY (07gtpony) wanting me to tell you guys he WANTS the 174 no matter the condition.:drink::p


BUT< now that I think of it I can put the 174 under my hood.

And tell PONYBOY to quit lusting for my shit. ;)

[BRUTAL64]

Nope.

I don't like NOPE. No, sir not at all. :rant:












:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[joedls]

I don't like NOPE. No, sir not at all. :rant:










Hahaha. You're still mad cuz I said you were old.

[BRUTAL64]

Hahaha. You're still mad cuz I said you were old.

Now, you've done it. I was going to let you hang around PONYBOY and me so people would think you were cool. Not going to happen now.:smack:

[joedls]

I was going to let you hang around PONYBOY and me so people would think you were cool. Not going to happen now.:smack:


Thank you!!!!

[BRUTAL64]

Thank you!!!!

PONYBOY said he'll let you have the 174 back any time you want. Well?:huh:

[joedls]

PONYBOY said he'll let you have the 174 back any time you want. Well?:huh:


Tell PONYBOY I said he has to get his own toys because I heard he doesn't play well with others.

[Vettezuki]

From Supercharger USA:

Hi Ben

No, I don't have a snout or a bearing plate. We repair, but don't replace since there are no parts left

Sorry buddy

Thanks

[BRUTAL64]

From Supercharger USA:

Hi Ben

No, I don't have a snout or a bearing plate. We repair, but don't replace since there are no parts left

Sorry buddy

Thanks

So how much to repair?

[Vettezuki]

So how much to repair?

About $700. But as I read this, they wouldn't be able to do it, since they don't have the replacement parts, unless they were going to try and weld it up and fab it back together somehow.

Say Joe, uh, how did this thing break in the first place?

[joedls]

Say Joe, uh, how did this thing break in the first place?



http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/crash.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/crash3.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

About $700. But as I read this, they wouldn't be able to do it, since they don't have the replacement parts, unless they were going to try and weld it up and fab it back together somehow.

Say Joe, uh, how did this thing break in the first place?

Ok, lets get the MINDS together and look at this thing. I have some pretty good welder connections, as I'm sure all of us do. Lets not give up yet.:drink:

[Vettezuki]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/crash.jpg . .


Mmmm, who was driving when this went down? :sm_up_there:

[Vettezuki]

How does the Holley 174 compare to the Magna Charger MP112?

This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MP112-Carburated-Supercharger-SBC-SBF_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116Q QitemZ160308542708QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPart sQ5fAccessories) is brand new and pretty cheap, though we'd have to figure out something for the manifold. I could have an adapter made for this blower to the 174 manifold as a possibility.

[joedls]

Mmmm, who was driving when this went down? :sm_up_there:


Me.

[joedls]

How does the Holley 174 compare to the Magna Charger MP112?

This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MP112-Carburated-Supercharger-SBC-SBF_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116Q QitemZ160308542708QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPart sQ5fAccessories) is brand new and pretty cheap, though we'd have to figure out something for the manifold. I could have an adapter made for this blower to the 174 manifold as a possibility.

I don't think it would work. The nose is on the wrong side. The distributor would interfere.

[Vettezuki]

Me.

Oh Fu*k. (**) Maybe we should put a B18 in it and call it the RX-Hamster instead. . . Leedom, I need a new logo stat.

[enkeivette]

From Supercharger USA:

Hi Ben

No, I don't have a snout or a bearing plate. We repair, but don't replace since there are no parts left

Sorry buddy

Thanks


Ship it out, have them repair it! Who cares about parts availability in the future? Once it's spruced up it should be good for another 100K miles.

[Vettezuki]

Ship it out, have them repair it! Who cares about parts availability in the future? Once it's spruced up it should be good for another 100K miles.

The way I read their response was that it was beyond repair, because those parts were too damaged and they don't exist to be replaced. However, I sent them an emails to follow. Ron also gave me a place to try.

[big2bird]

Ship it out, have them repair it! Who cares about parts availability in the future? Once it's spruced up it should be good for another 100K miles.

:laugh::laugh:

[big2bird]

Bird, a lot of us that are working on this car already have the experience needed to build the engine with the blower, me for an example. This engine with the blower is basically the same that I built for my Cobra. I also built my Chevelle which has gone as fast as 10.35 on a set of 26x8.5/14 M/T slicks so I think we can make the RX-Snake hook up on a little wider tire.

I think if we can't get the blower fixed that we should go N/A but if we can fix the blower we should definitely bolt it on.

I did not mean to imply you guys cannot. Factually, the engine is my last concern. It's a given the engine can be built.

[big2bird]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/crash.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/crash3.jpg

I won't even ask. That had to hurt like hell though.

[big2bird]

Turbos are a PAIN in the ASS. :suicide:





:thumbs_up::thumbs_up::thumbs_up::thumbs_up::thumb s_up::thumbs_up:

[SeanPlunk]

I won't even ask. That had to hurt like hell though.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said the giant round crack is where his head hit the windshield. If I know Joe though, it'll be better than ever when he's done with it :bigthumbsup:

[Vettezuki]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said the giant round crack is where his head hit the windshield. . .

That explains a lot. . .

[joedls]

I won't even ask. That had to hurt like hell though.


Yeah, it hurt. The paramedics couldn't believe I was never unconcious. Spent 4 days in the hospital.

The AC hoses were tied up to the export brace with zipties. A couple of them broke and the hoses dropped down just enough to interfere with the throttle linkage. I couldn't get the accelerator to move. When it did, it pushed past the hose to WOT. The hose wouldn't allow the linkage to return. I hit that loading dock wall ~60 MPH.

[joedls]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said the giant round crack is where his head hit the windshield. If I know Joe though, it'll be better than ever when he's done with it :bigthumbsup:

Yep, that was my head. The car is currently under construction. :bigthumbsup:

[joedls]

That explains a lot. . .


Hey, no comments from the curly-headed section.

[SeanPlunk]

Hey, no comments from the curly-headed section.

Call him a hippie, he loves that :rolling:

[joedls]

Call him a hippie, he loves that :rolling:

OK. No comments from the hippie section.

[Vettezuki]

OK. No comments from the hippie section.

Technically it's a Jew-fro. Which I think you'd understand:

http://motorgen.com/forum/customprofilepics/profilepic773_4.gif

As for the hippie comment; I'll let it slide . . . this time.

[SeanPlunk]

OK. No comments from the hippie section.

:hippy:
















:whistle:

[joedls]

Technically it's a Jew-fro. Which I think you'd understand:

http://motorgen.com/forum/customprofilepics/profilepic773_4.gif

As for the hippie comment; I'll let it slide . . . this time.


I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice that pic from 1979. I could actually write a book about my adventures in the summer of '79.........

[joedls]

As for the hippie comment; I'll let it slide . . . this time.

Before you get crazy, you might wanna remember I hit that wall ~60 with nothing more than a lap belt and didn't get knocked out. Just saying........

[Vettezuki]

Before you get crazy, you might wanna remember I hit that wall ~60 with nothing more than a lap belt and didn't get knocked out. Just saying........

I once did a swan dive off the bridge in front of Universal ampither into about 18 inches of water. To re-enact properly, fill up a kiddie pool on your drive way and dive into it . . . from your roof. I didn't get knocked out either, but you might notice my nose is crooked. My friend who followed me . . . not so lucky.

So, in conclusion, you and me have similar awesome taste in hair style, tough, and not so bright probably. . . . but I can drive. Or at least I've never crashed into a loading dock. :nutkick: ;)

EDIT: I just read the reason for said incident. Yikes! BTW, this is why ya'lls be signing a little release of liability form to drive RX-Snake.

[Vettezuki]

Yeah, it hurt. The paramedics couldn't believe I was never unconcious. Spent 4 days in the hospital.

The AC hoses were tied up to the export brace with zipties. A couple of them broke and the hoses dropped down just enough to interfere with the throttle linkage. I couldn't get the accelerator to move. When it did, it pushed past the hose to WOT. The hose wouldn't allow the linkage to return. I hit that loading dock wall ~60 MPH.

I'm no CSI, but I don't see any skid marks from brakes or sliding. And judging by the angle of the car, did you jump over the parking stops and hit that wall straight on?

[joedls]

I'm no CSI, but I don't see any skid marks from brakes or sliding. And judging by the angle of the car, did you jump over the parking stops and hit that wall straight on?


Skid marks from the brakes are on the pavement in the parking lot, Yup, flew right into that wall.

[joedls]

So, in conclusion, you and me have similar awesome taste in hair style


Actually, no, we don't. That was my hairstyle in 1979. Definitely not the way I wear my hair today. :D

[BRUTAL64]

That explains a lot. . .

In this case, he really did hit his head.:censored:

[BRUTAL64]

I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice that pic from 1979. I could actually write a book about my adventures in the summer of '79.........

Yea, the Summer of "79---a big blur. :smack:

Disco was big then and or course the women were..................friendly.

[joedls]

In this case, he really did hit his head.:censored:


Hey, no comments out of the senior citizen section, either.

[BRUTAL64]

Hey, no comments out of the senior citizen section, either.

Yea, and............................................... .

[Vettezuki]

So I have kind of a little lull here where the car is at Ron's and we're waiting to find out what the score is going to be on the blower. Say, what colors were ford blocks . . . ? Probably just gonna go with a nice hi temp flat black, but out of curiosity were they any colors like the Chevy blocks?

[big2bird]

Ford Blue:D

[94cobra69ss396]

Ford Blue:D

That's the color I painted the engine in the Chevelle, Dark Ford Blue.

[Vettezuki]

That's the color I painted the engine in the Chevelle, Dark Ford Blue.

Recommended brand/type of paint for block? Is there an "official" provider of the real Ford Blue. May as well do it right if I'm going to bother.

[94cobra69ss396]

Recommended brand/type of paint for block? Is there an "official" provider of the real Ford Blue. May as well do it right if I'm going to bother.

I still have a can in the garage. Give a few and I'll let you know what it is. If it doesn't rain I'll be working on the cage tomorrow. Do you and Adam want to come out to see it?

[joedls]

Recommended brand/type of paint for block? Is there an "official" provider of the real Ford Blue. May as well do it right if I'm going to bother.

I have a can of something I used to match up my intake with the engine paint on my 347. It was almost a perfect match. I'll look when I get home. I can't remember the brand off the top of my head, but I know I bought it at Home Depot and it was Safety Blue.

[Vettezuki]

I still have a can in the garage. Give a few and I'll let you know what it is. If it doesn't rain I'll be working on the cage tomorrow. Do you and Adam want to come out to see it?

Let me touch base with Adam and see what he wants to do. I'd like to. Please PM with your address. If we do, how's Sunday late morning/midday?

[Vettezuki]

I put the engine on my new stand last night, didn't drop it or anything. I go to get the heads in an hour or so. Last week they sent the wrong castings. Maybe I'll pull a head tonight and see what kind of valve reliefs we have put up some pics of the heads.

[94cobra69ss396]

Let me touch base with Adam and see what he wants to do. I'd like to. Please PM with your address. If we do, how's Sunday late morning/midday?

Sunday is good. PM sent with address.

[Vettezuki]

Just FYI,

I'm pretty much striking out everywhere I look for 174 parts, and the blower services aren't getting back to me. I would be interested in going NA if the 174 doesn't work, but if we do, I'd like to make it kinda gnarly by going to a nasty solid cam/lifters (would also have to change springs since they're being setup for the mild hydraulic blower cam we have now). I think this is pretty much what Ron and Bird had in mind. But the big thing I'd like to try in this case is to go E85. That would be our challenge as well as our little talking point. I'm guessing, but an aggressive E85 tune (cool charge, 105~ octane) on a high spinning big cam, LT headers, etc. should be good for hi 300s maybe even crack a 400 to the wheels on the 306. We could also keep the IRS and that plus not having the blower means the car would be quite a bit lighter, maybe down to <=2,500lbs.

[BRUTAL64]

Just FYI,

I'm pretty much striking out everywhere I look for 174 parts, and the blower services aren't getting back to me. I would be interested in going NA if the 174 doesn't work, but if we do, I'd like to make it kinda gnarly by going to a nasty solid cam/lifters (would also have to change springs since they're being setup for the mild hydraulic blower cam we have now). I think this is pretty much what Ron and Bird had in mind. But the big thing I'd like to try in this case is to go E85. That would be our challenge as well as our little talking point. I'm guessing, but an aggressive E85 tune (cool charge, 105~ octane) on a high spinning big cam, LT headers, etc. should be good for hi 300s maybe even crack a 400 to the wheels on the 306. We could also keep the IRS and that plus not having the blower means the car would be quite a bit lighter, maybe down to <=2,500lbs.


I'm using hydraulic roller springs with my Soild lifter cam. It's just me though.
We sell Comp Cams here (not a fan) and ALWAYS use the springs Comp Cams says to use.:drink:



Here's a "Brutal" question: If we go NA, are we using ONE or TWO carbs?:sm_laughing:

[Vettezuki]

I'm using hydraulic roller springs with my Soild lifter cam. It's just me though.
We sell Comp Cams here (not a fan) and ALWAYS use the springs Comp Cams says to use.:drink:



Here's a "Brutal" question: If we go NA, are we using ONE or TWO carbs?:sm_laughing:

One. :smack: FMI, knowing what cams would you recommend.?

[joedls]

One. :smack: FMI, knowing what cams would you recommend.?

Webers!!!!!!!

[Vettezuki]

Webers!!!!!!!

Cams?

[BRUTAL64]

Webers!!!!!!!

Edelbrook Performers carbs are made by Weber.:thumbs_up:

[joedls]

Cams?

See pic above

[94cobra69ss396]

Just FYI,

I'm pretty much striking out everywhere I look for 174 parts, and the blower services aren't getting back to me. I would be interested in going NA if the 174 doesn't work, but if we do, I'd like to make it kinda gnarly by going to a nasty solid cam/lifters (would also have to change springs since they're being setup for the mild hydraulic blower cam we have now). I think this is pretty much what Ron and Bird had in mind. But the big thing I'd like to try in this case is to go E85. That would be our challenge as well as our little talking point. I'm guessing, but an aggressive E85 tune (cool charge, 105~ octane) on a high spinning big cam, LT headers, etc. should be good for hi 300s maybe even crack a 400 to the wheels on the 306. We could also keep the IRS and that plus not having the blower means the car would be quite a bit lighter, maybe down to <=2,500lbs.


I think the hydraulic roller springs will work fine with a solid flat tappet. They usually have a higher spring rate for heavier weight of the lifters but that will work well because we need more spring pressure for the higher rpm.

Check to see what the open and closed spring rates are when you pick up the heads. Also check to see what the max lift he says you can use. We can check to see what the cam manufacturer recommends for the cam we want to run and compare.

I'm also not using the springs that are recommended for my cam. I'm running a solid roller that needs more spring pressure with springs designed for a flat tappet cam but because I only turn 6500 they worked fine. I accidently over rev'd the engine doing a burnout when I first put it together and hit valve float at 7200. Now after 2 years of racing the engine stops pulling after 6000.

[BRUTAL64]

One. :smack: FMI, knowing what cams would you recommend.?


Ok, what rear gear are WE going to run? Are you thinking flat tappet or solid roller??


Just thinking tunnel ram with TWO 500 performers or 360 Holleys.

[94cobra69ss396]

Ok, what rear gear are WE going to run? Are you thinking flat tappet or solid roller??

I would say flat tappet due to cost.

[Vettezuki]

Ok, what rear gear are WE going to run? Are you thinking flat tappet or solid roller??


Just thinking tunnel ram with TWO 500 performers or 360 Holleys.

The axle we have is a 4.1. I'd run a fairly short tire (26~) for aesthetic reasons. That means this little mill would need to spin to reach higher speeds.

Why two carbs? What's the theory?

What's the real difference in cost between flat tappet and solid roller? What's the performance "hit" for flat tappet vs. solid roller if the intent is to spin the hell out of a 5L? Also what about durability and maintenance? I don't know much about this subject, but does a solid roller setup require regular tweaking because of the lash with the lifters? Sorry, I just don't know much about this detail of engine internals.

[Vettezuki]

See pic above

Sorry, I'm behind a firewall and couldn't see. Had to "step outside". This looks awesome . . . and expensive. :smack:

[BRUTAL64]

I would say flat tappet due to cost.

Here's a start:


# 31-641-5 600 I 593 E lift Dur at .050- 265 I 276 E with LSA of 106.

This, of course is just a guide line.

[BRUTAL64]

Why two carbs? What's the theory?





Well, the "WOW" factor and better balance for each runner on a Tunnel Ram.

One barrel for each port. KINDA like FI.;)

Cost for a cam kit in Solid lifter is much better than a Roller by about 4x.

[Vettezuki]

Just picked up the heads. I'll put up some pics later. Because the first castings that were sent out were the wrong ones they threw in some bowl work, whatever that means. :smack:

SPRINGS
Seat Pressure 150lbs.
Open Pressure, he said he couldn't give an exact number without knowing the exact cam, but based on what I told him (.540 lift, hydraulic roller) he said high 300s low 400s max.
He said they'll safely support .700 lift

BASIC CAM RECOMMENDATION
He said we could run a solid flat tappet with these springs, BUT unless we were going to port the heads and were willing to be careful with break in and do maintenance, there wasn't really that much advantage. He recommended sticking with a nice big high lift hydraulic roller and be done with it for simplicity's sake. Basically it's the point of diminishing returns.

[Vettezuki]

What are the blower dynamics of the MagnaCharger MP112 vs. the Holley 174?

As I mentioned earlier, there is a seller on eBay that has brand new MP112 carburated models for $500 (just the blower, no intake or pulleys). Pacific Performance, where I got the heads, actually made and apparently still has in stock a couple offset Dizzie drives that take an MSD cap. They were specifically designed to give clearance to Roots blowers on 289/302 SBF. We'd have to modifiy an intake or create and adapter for the MP112, as well as figure out front drive, but this is possible. Just throwing it out as an option. I'll call PSE on Monday to see what they can do with the 174.

[Vettezuki]

Well, the "WOW" factor and better balance for each runner on a Tunnel Ram.

One barrel for each port. KINDA like FI.;)

Cost for a cam kit in Solid lifter is much better than a Roller by about 4x.

Tunnel Ram seems to be a type of intake, not a specific model. Were you thinking this kinda thing?

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/Tunnel_Ram.JPG

[big2bird]

Tunnel Ram seems to be a type of intake, not a specific model. Were you thinking this kinda thing?

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/Tunnel_Ram.JPG

Yes. A high rise/tunnel has equal length runners. Also, with 4 carbs, you have one venturi per cylinder, and with seperate runners, you eliminate the 7-8 issue. (5-7 on chevy). It's about balance.
You will also notice the runners are "Free air", read as cooler/denser charge.

[Vettezuki]

Please define the 7-8 issue and free air.

[big2bird]

On a normal intake, the cylinders 7-8 fire sequentially, sending the charge down the same runner for both , one right after the other. Therefore, 8 does not get an equal charge.
"Free air", meaning heat is not transferred from the engine interior/water jackets to the intake runners.

[94cobra69ss396]

Please define the 7-8 issue and free air.

Those cylinders tend to run leaner due to the fuel not traveling to them as well. I think a tunnel ram is a little much for this engine though. I would run something like a Victor Jr instead. It would work just as well and would not cost as much (only need one carb) or have the same complexity to install.

[big2bird]

Balance is everything in an engine. V-8's are , forgive me, inherently a POS.
Boxer engines are much better by design, IE, the pistions directly oppose each other, therefore balancing each other naturally, with no counterweights, and very little harmonics. Add individual intake runners like webers, they rev up much higher without internal forces trying to tear them apart. Capische?

[big2bird]

Those cylinders tend to run leaner due to the fuel not traveling to them as well. I think a tunnel ram is a little much for this engine though. I would run something like a Victor Jr instead. It would work just as well and would not cost as much (only need one carb) or have the same complexity to install.

Yes and no and yes and no and yes and...................:laugh:

[94cobra69ss396]

On a normal intake, the cylinders 7-8 fire sequentially, sending the charge down the same runner for both , one right after the other. Therefore, 8 does not get an equal charge.

I need more info on this because I'm not sure I understand. First, I think the cam that is in the engine has a firing order of 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 instead of the older firing order of 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. But lets say it has the older one. If the air/fuel is already traveling to 7 then 8 opens wouldn't 8 actually fill better than say 1 would because the air/fuel is already being sucked that direction? For 1 the air/fuel has to change direction from the back driverside to the front passenger side so wouldn't 1 get less then 8?

[joedls]

First, I think the cam that is in the engine has a firing order of 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 instead of the older firing order of 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8.

You would be correct. I figured this out when I first fired up this engine and used the old firing order. Wouldn't start. Scratched my head, remembered that the engine was not a 68, switched the wires, and she fired right up.

[94cobra69ss396]

You would be correct. I figured this out when I first fired up this engine and used the old firing order. Wouldn't start. Scratched my head, remembered that the engine was not a 68, switched the wires, and she fired right up.

How did you adjust the valves if you were using the wrong firing order?

[joedls]

How did you adjust the valves if you were using the wrong firing order?


I didn't. Someone else built the engine. I just installed it in the car.

[Vettezuki]

Balance is everything in an engine. V-8's are , forgive me, inherently a POS.
Boxer engines are much better by design, IE, the pistions directly oppose each other, therefore balancing each other naturally, with no counterweights, and very little harmonics. Add individual intake runners like webers, they rev up much higher without internal forces trying to tear them apart. Capische?

Caporsche.

[Vettezuki]

Some Pics of the Heads. Click on the pics for Hi-Res.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_3.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6347)

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_1.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6348)

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_4.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6346)

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_2.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6345)

[big2bird]

I need more info on this because I'm not sure I understand. First, I think the cam that is in the engine has a firing order of 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 instead of the older firing order of 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. But lets say it has the older one. If the air/fuel is already traveling to 7 then 8 opens wouldn't 8 actually fill better than say 1 would because the air/fuel is already being sucked that direction? For 1 the air/fuel has to change direction from the back driverside to the front passenger side so wouldn't 1 get less then 8?

That just moves the issue to 6-5.

Do a search. You will find the rear piston on both Chevies and Fords run lean, burn/crack pistons, burn oil first, etc.

[94cobra69ss396]

That just moves the issue to 6-5.

Do a search. You will find the rear piston on both Chevies and Fords run lean, burn/crack pistons, burn oil first, etc.

Then that would mean the front drivers side piston would run lean on this engine.

[94cobra69ss396]

Some Pics of the Heads. Click on the pics for Hi-Res.

[http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_2.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6345)

Are you going to have Glenn blend the combustion chambers? Those sharp edges they cut for the large valves need to be cleaned up.

[Vettezuki]

Are you going to have Glenn blend the combustion chambers? Those sharp edges they cut for the large valves need to be cleaned up.

Once we know what intake and headers we'll be using for sure, he's gonna look at and touch up all three.

[Vettezuki]

BREAK IN
The head guy was pretty emphatic that you had to be strict about break in procedure for a solid flat tappet cam. Someting to the effect of once installed the motor needed to go straight to 2,500rpm and stay there for 20 minutes. How the heck do you do that on a new motor that isn't tuned for the intake and carb etc. Can you just get it in the ball park with the existing mild hydraulic cam so it start and runs relatively smooth and rich enough not to melt down, then switch the cams and do the break in, then final tuning. :huh:

BALANCED ROTATING ASSEMBLY
Since the principle advantage of the Solid Flat Tappet is spinning the motor towards 7k, maybe a little higher, doesn't the assembly need to be fully balanced?

HEAD PORTING
In order for the heads to continue flowing efficiently at this high RPMS, don't they need to be ported?

[big2bird]

BREAK IN
The head guy was pretty emphatic that you had to be strict about break in procedure for a solid flat tappet cam. Someting to the effect of once installed the motor needed to go straight to 2,500rpm and stay there for 20 minutes. How the heck do you do that on a new motor that isn't tuned for the intake and carb etc. Can you just get it in the ball park with the existing mild hydraulic cam so it start and runs relatively smooth and rich enough not to melt down, then switch the cams and do the break in, then final tuning. :huh:
You just set the timing at 16* at static with a 20 * stop bushing, set the idle jet a tad rich and go. Use Dino with 1,200ZDDP level and EOS. I just did this a few weeks back. If you have REALLY stiff springs, the cam makers want you to use Softer springs for break in, then reinstall the supplied springs.
BALANCED ROTATING ASSEMBLY
Since the principle advantage of the Solid Flat Tappet is spinning the motor towards 7k, maybe a little higher, doesn't the assembly need to be fully balanced?
Yes. Centripetal forces are exponential at higher speeds.
HEAD PORTING
In order for the heads to continue flowing efficiently at this high RPMS, don't they need to be ported?
I would do that anyhow.

[big2bird]

I meant rich, but I CAN'T EDIT.:censored:

[Vettezuki]

I meant rich, but I CAN'T EDIT.:censored:

Don't know why you can't edit, and neither does TT. He said he didn't change anything on VM. I'll look into it more, but it's weird. What exact browers are you using?

[Vettezuki]

I would do that anyhow.

Ok. As for balancing I'll ask around and see how much balancing is. Maybe get a new set of pistons if we're going NA. :huh:

[big2bird]

Don't know why you can't edit, and neither does TT. He said he didn't change anything on VM. I'll look into it more, but it's weird. What exact browers are you using?

AT&T Yahoo

[big2bird]

Ok. As for balancing I'll ask around and see how much balancing is. Maybe get a new set of pistons if we're going NA. :huh:

Should be $200-300. Used to be a place in Santa Ana. Ask Glenn.;)

[Vettezuki]

Joe,

Before I go pricing balancing services, was this motor balanced when you had it assembled. I see you have an aftermarket Pro Street balancer. :huh:

[joedls]

Joe,

Before I go pricing balancing services, was this motor balanced when you had it assembled. I see you have an aftermarket Pro Street balancer. :huh:


That engine is balanced.

[Vettezuki]

That engine is balanced.

Ok then. If we can't fix the 174, and we go NA, we'll put in a gnarly flat tappet solid cam. I'll depend on you guys for proper break-in and learning how to check and maintain the valve train.

Joe,
Do remember the static compression of this engine with the E6 heads?

[Vettezuki]

If we can't find the necessary parts to repair the 174 by the Feb. 8 LB Swap Meet, we'll be going down the high strung NA route.

[94cobra69ss396]

Breaking in the engine is easy don't worry about it. If we do go N/A, we're going to want to add a little more compression. I think Joe said that the engine had around 9:1 which is on the low side for N/A. I think something around 12:1 would be right and we should run it on 100 octane. We will have to have the rotating assembly rebalanced if we change the pistons. I only paid $150 when I did the forged pistons in the Cobra.

[Vettezuki]

Breaking in the engine is easy don't worry about it. If we do go N/A, we're going to want to add a little more compression. I think Joe said that the engine had around 9:1 which is on the low side for N/A. I think something around 12:1 would be right and we should run it on 100 octane. We will have to have the rotating assembly rebalanced if we change the pistons. I only paid $150 when I did the forged pistons in the Cobra.


$150 for the balancing or $150 for the pistons? It's not a big deal, just working out pricing for cost benefit for maximum ROI. The place where I bought the heads has their own fully balanced, fully forged stroker kits for about $1,400. This is the absolute outer limits of what I'd even consider, but if a set of pistons and balancing run up past $500, I'd at least think about it.

If we go hi-comp NA, I'd like to go E85. It costs nearly half what 100 octane does, has about 105 octane, and has other nice attributes. Quickfuel has conversion kits for 4150 Holley carbs. I *think* E85 means we could go even a little higher than 12:1. A big cammed, high reving 13.x:1 302 in a 2,500lbs car should move. :smack:

[joedls]

$150 for the balancing or $150 for the pistons? It's not a big deal, just working out pricing for cost benefit for maximum ROI. The place where I bought the heads has their own fully balanced, fully forged stroker kits for about $1,400. This is the absolute outer limits of what I'd even consider, but if a set of pistons and balancing run up past $500, I'd at least think about it.

If we go hi-comp NA, I'd like to go E85. It costs nearly half what 100 octane does, has about 105 octane, and has other nice attributes. Quickfuel has conversion kits for 4150 Holley carbs. I *think* E85 means we could go even a little higher than 12:1. A big cammed, high reving 13.x:1 302 in a 2,500lbs car should move. :smack:


If you would consider $1400 for a rotating assembly, why not get a used blower. I only paid $1500 for that one on ebay. And if you can't find a roots, you can pick up a centri similar to this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__VORTECH-SUPERCHARGER-KIT-86-93-FORD-MUSTANG-302-5-0L_W0QQitemZ220350098760QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20Access oriesQQadiZ2865QQddiZ2811QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ2 0PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotor s_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item22035009876 0&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[Vettezuki]

If you would consider $1400 for a rotating assembly, why not get a used blower. I only paid $1500 for that one on ebay. And if you can't find a roots, you can pick up a centri similar to this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__VORTECH-SUPERCHARGER-KIT-86-93-FORD-MUSTANG-302-5-0L_W0QQitemZ220350098760QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20Access oriesQQadiZ2865QQddiZ2811QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ2 0PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotor s_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item22035009876 0&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

My order of preference would be.

Fix 174 - Clearly best ROI for power
High Strung 302 - Cost effective fun

Depending on the cost of doing a high strung 302, I might consider other options, like a stroker, or this kit, but would shy away from this price range. Still many other things to get, including a trailer . . .

[enkeivette]

Here's a valley girdle.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/images/VG350-1.gif

I don't know Fords, but it looks to me like the block would have to be tapped for those.

Wow, you guys are throwing out some big number for horse power!!! How fast you guys want to go???? 650HP??? This is not a fat ass termi you guys are building... 450hp your going high 10s??? You guys are planing to build to much power, its almost overkill. 650hp with about the same weight your mid 9s. And any one really drive something that light with that power? Boost is nasty, when it hits, you better grab on to your nuts and keep your eyes down track. I think traction is going to be your main issuse. Anyone ever throw out the idea of a 11:1 set up with some spray?

Engines never put down as much power as you expect them to, why hold back? We can always limit the boost with a smaller pulley or by adjusting the wastegates if traction is an issue.

Don't know if I've used this example before, but when I hear about guys who want to limit hp, it reminds me of guys who ask for body building advice and start off with "I don't want to get too big." :sm_laughing: Don't worry bro, ain't gonna happen overnight! Don't hold back, we'll have enough unforseen issues limiting hp anyhow.

[enkeivette]

Ben, I'd base the solid vs hydraulic decision on the heads. If you buy some BIG heads, you'll want to spin this thing past 6500rpm for sheezy. If you go with some <200cc heads, the hyd will do fine. IMHO.

[Vettezuki]

Ben, I'd base the solid vs hydraulic decision on the heads. If you buy some BIG heads, you'll want to spin this thing past 6500rpm for sheezy. If you go with some <200cc heads, the hyd will do fine. IMHO.

These are 195cc as cast. Glenn can port. See this (http://motorgen.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13149&highlight=Flow#post13149) post for ranges of flow numbers.

[94cobra69ss396]

$150 for the balancing or $150 for the pistons? It's not a big deal, just working out pricing for cost benefit for maximum ROI. The place where I bought the heads has their own fully balanced, fully forged stroker kits for about $1,400. This is the absolute outer limits of what I'd even consider, but if a set of pistons and balancing run up past $500, I'd at least think about it.

If we go hi-comp NA, I'd like to go E85. It costs nearly half what 100 octane does, has about 105 octane, and has other nice attributes. Quickfuel has conversion kits for 4150 Holley carbs. I *think* E85 means we could go even a little higher than 12:1. A big cammed, high reving 13.x:1 302 in a 2,500lbs car should move. :smack:

It was $150 for just the balancing. I don't remember how much my pistons were but I took a look on Summit and high compression forged ones go for $400-$650 for a set so that $1400 stroker is looking good. However, isn't it half that to fix the blower?

[Vettezuki]

It was $150 for just the balancing. I don't remember how much my pistons were but I took a look on Summit and high compression forged ones go for $400-$650 for a set so that $1400 stroker is looking good. However, isn't it half that to fix the blower?

The one blower shop that said they didn't have parts, never responded to my second question of "can you fix this." I'll talk to PSE later today. Clearly if the blower can be fixed for that $600 range it is by far the cheapest option (could keep current cam, no need for different intake).

[BRUTAL64]

Tunnel Ram seems to be a type of intake, not a specific model. Were you thinking this kinda thing?

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/Tunnel_Ram.JPG

Yes, that is it.:thumbs_up:

[BRUTAL64]

Some Pics of the Heads. Click on the pics for Hi-Res.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_3.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6347)

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_1.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6348)

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_4.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6346)

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/Heads_2.jpg (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6345)

Thoses are pretty simular to my China Chevy heads.:bigthumbsup:

[BRUTAL64]

Are you going to have Glenn blend the combustion chambers? Those sharp edges they cut for the large valves need to be cleaned up.

Hey, you trying to give me more work? :sm_laughing:

[94cobra69ss396]

Hey, you trying to give me more work? :sm_laughing:

I was trying but I'll do it if you don't want to. I just need to finish the cage, make the engine cross member, trans crossmember and motor mounts first.

[BRUTAL64]

These are 195cc as cast. Glenn can port. See this (http://motorgen.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13149&highlight=Flow#post13149) post for ranges of flow numbers.

I'm NOT going to hog these heads out. I will clean them up and work on contures and such. We have to watch what we (I) do here. It is best not to change the bias of the ports. I'll look at them soon. But, don't expect a GREAT change in the flow numbers. The 195cc will be plenty for what ever we do. These heads will be just fine. :drink:

[BRUTAL64]

I was trying but I'll do it if you don't want to. I just need to finish the cage, make the engine cross member, trans crossmember and motor mounts first.

Hey, not a problem if you want to do the heads. It's all yours. I've got plenty to do in my shop. If you want any input I'll take a look at them for you if you like. Should not be more than 8 to 12 hours of porting work for you.:bigthumbsup:

[94cobra69ss396]

Hey, not a problem if you want to do the heads. It's all yours. I've got plent to do in my shop. If you want any input I'll take a look at them for you if you like. Should not be more than 8 to 12 hours of porting work for you.:bigthumbsup:

According to Ben when he picked up the heads they told him that they did some port work already. So hopefully they will just need to have the edges smoothed on the combustion chambers.

[Vettezuki]

According to Ben when he picked up the heads they told him that they did some port work already. So hopefully they will just need to have the edges smoothed on the combustion chambers.

They said "bowl cleanup". I have no idea what that means. Curiously, they too said something to the effect of, unless you really know what you're targeting, I wouldn't port them.

Ron, you got's big plenty to do. :thumbs_up:

Glenn, I want to settle on engine config, then work with you on efficiently optimizing the intake -> heads -> exhaust. I'd like to get this engine work underway while Ron has the car for other fab. Concurrency is magic. But the 174 is the hang up right now. I'm happy to do the bulk of the real work once I have a clear understanding of what to do and a little practice.

[BRUTAL64]

Glenn, I want to settle on engine config, then work with you on efficiently optimizing the intake -> heads -> exhaust. I'd like to get this engine work underway while Ron has the car for other fab. Concurrency is magic. But the 174 is the hang up right now. I'm happy to do the bulk of the real work once I have a clear understanding of what to do and a little practice.


Some interesting things are going on in my life right now. But, nothing more interesting than an engine that needs too be "figured" on!:smack:

[94cobra69ss396]

They said "bowl cleanup". I have no idea what that means. Curiously, they too said something to the effect of, unless you really know what you're targeting, I wouldn't port them.

Ron, you got's big plenty to do. :thumbs_up:

Glenn, I want to settle on engine config, then work with you on efficiently optimizing the intake -> heads -> exhaust. I'd like to get this engine work underway while Ron has the car for other fab. Concurrency is magic. But the 174 is the hang up right now. I'm happy to do the bulk of the real work once I have a clear understanding of what to do and a little practice.

The bowl is the section behind the valves which is what Glenn was taking about doing. If they have already cleaned them up that saves us a lot of time as long as they did a good job which I'm assuming they did. This means we would only need to clean up the combustion chambers and match the intake and exhaust ports if needed.

[Vettezuki]

Some interesting things are going on in my life right now. But, nothing more interesting than an engine that needs too be "figured" on!:smack:

Something tells me most of your life has involved interesting things. The important thing is that you have the appropriate priorities for this project. :smack:

[BRUTAL64]

Something tells me most of your life has involved interesting things. The important thing is that you have the appropriate priorities for this project. :smack:

Why don't we do a Hiperf class on heads and stuff (porting also). It'd probably be 3 to 4 hours long--longer depending on the number of shots of Mexican Happy Juice.:p

[Vettezuki]

Why don't we do a Hiperf class on heads and stuff (porting also). It'd probably be 3 to 4 hours long--longer depending on the number of shots of Mexican Happy Juice.:p

Sounds great. Let me know a handful of times and locations that would work for you, and we'll set it up. My garage is fine if your shop isn't up and running yet.

[BRUTAL64]

Sounds great. Let me know a handful of times and locations that would work for you, and we'll set it up. My garage is fine if your shop isn't up and running yet.

How about two week ends from this week-end. Maybe I'll have my shop cleaned up enough by then. Well, actually you need the class as soon as possible. So I'm ready, really, anytime for the class. I don't need to prepare, just somethiing to draw on that everyone can see.:bigthumbsup:

[Vettezuki]

How about two week ends from this week-end. Maybe I'll have my shop cleaned up enough by then. Well, actually you need the class as soon as possible. So I'm ready, really, anytime for the class. I don't need to prepare, just somethiing to draw on that everyone can see.:bigthumbsup:

All right let me look at my crystal ball and we'll come up with something.

[enkeivette]

What's the low down on this class? Can I go?:nuts:

[Vettezuki]

What's the low down on this class? Can I go?:nuts:

Of course. I'll let you know when I figure out how to organize it.

[BRUTAL64]

Of course. I'll let you know when I figure out how to organize it.

Hey, I'm the one giving the class. I don't know about having Adam there. You know how he is.:rolling:











You know I'm just kidding Adam? Right? :p

[Vettezuki]

This is just for reference. I'm really hoping we can fix the 174 since it'll bang and potentially cost a lot less.

But my price on a fully forged, fully balanced 347 stroker is $1400.
4340 Crank
4032 FT Pistons
4340 H Beam Rods
CL-77 Bearings
Pro Moly Ring Set

They use this kit with pretty much the heads we have, a Victor Junior Style Intake, 750cfm carb, and moderate hydraulic cam to make 440bhp.

[Vettezuki]

I'm not taking anything for granted. Since these need to be bought, any concerns for plugs and wires. For example hot vs. cool plugs???

[enkeivette]

Hey, I'm the one giving the class. I don't know about having Adam there. You know how he is.:rolling:











You know I'm just kidding Adam? Right? :p

I promise not to hump anyone's leg this time.



Ben, why are you posting at 3am? Go to bed. And why are you building a new engine when you have a fully forged one sitting in your garage? You need to save your money for fiberglass materials for all of these one time molds that you want me to flash.

As for the spark plugs, get a recommendation from the head manufacturer and go one or two steps colder, depending on how crazy you want to go with the boost. Or if you want to run corn syrup, ask Cornfed what to buy.

[94cobra69ss396]

I'm not taking anything for granted. Since these need to be bought, any concerns for plugs and wires. For example hot vs. cool plugs???

If we go boost run Autolite 3923 if we go N/A run 3925 or 24. The 23's are 2 steps cooler then the 25's which are the stock replacement plug for a Mustang with a 5.0.

[enkeivette]

If we go boost run Autolite 3923 if we go N/A run 3925 or 24. The 23's are 2 steps cooler then the 25's which are the stock replacement plug for a Mustang with a 5.0.

23 at minimum, if we pump it up 22 or even 21. I think I'm even running a 21 at this point.

[94cobra69ss396]

23 at minimum, if we pump it up 22 or even 21. I think I'm even running a 21 at this point.

Pumped up with this blower is only 12psi. I'm running the 23's in mine without any issues at 10psi.

[Vettezuki]

. . .And why are you building a new engine when you have a fully forged one sitting in your garage? You need to save your money for fiberglass materials for all of these one time molds that you want me to flash. . .

I want to fix the 174, pure and simple. The engine we have has forged pistons and a balanced stock assembly as I understand, not fully forged. It's a 302 with relatively low compression: 9.x:1.

If we can't fix the 174 there are two paths to get into vaguely the same performance level:
- Other FI solution
- Some kind of NA solution

A well thought out FI kit for the 302 and a stroker kit with big cam are going to run very similar price range all said and done, in other words, similar prices for similar results.

[Vettezuki]

If we go boost run Autolite 3923 if we go N/A run 3925 or 24. The 23's are 2 steps cooler then the 25's which are the stock replacement plug for a Mustang with a 5.0.

What about wires? MSD, Accel, Duralast?

[big2bird]

What about wires? MSD, Accel, Duralast?

Ben. 7mm for point ignition, 8mm for HEI. I suggest MSD 8mm with straight boots. You can leave them straight, or bend them individually up to 90*.
Header socks are a must.

[Vettezuki]

Ben. 7mm for point ignition, 8mm for HEI. I suggest MSD 8mm with straight boots. You can leave them straight, or bend them individually up to 90*.
Header socks are a must.

Thanks for the info. Picked up an Alt and Starter today. The marine battery was intriguing, but our future holds a highly electrical project . . . hint hint.

[94cobra69ss396]

What about wires? MSD, Accel, Duralast?

I've had great results with Taylor wires. I run the 45 degree ones on both the Chevelle and the Cobra and haven't burned one yet.

[Vettezuki]

Finally got through to Ed at PSE Superchargers in Oklahoma. He said because this is a B&M Unit, nobody has original parts anymore, however, Weiand took over production and some parts are interchangable. Basically he'd have to see it to give an estimate. Minimum rebuild is $650, shop rate for repairs is $125/hr. We could at least send it in for an estimate. :huh: Whattaya think Joe?

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

I'm asking in preparation for RX-Snake, but asked here because it's a good general info topic.

- We will be using an HEI Distributor.
- The motor is setup with something like 9.x:1 static compression.
- I'm really hoping we can fix the 174 Blower. It's a roots style blower than can get up to about 12psi boost on that motor.

I was thinking of using E85 because a) the cooling properties help mitigate the very hot nature of a roots blower b) will allow us to run more timing c) is half the price of race gas d) I'm looking for an extra quirk on the project car for that cool factor.

Plus, as the hippie tree huggers continue their reign of terror, no matter how poorly reasoned E85 should become more readily available, so I'm interested in this fuel as a performance fuel.


well looks like you got all your ducks in a line except for that blower. also 9.x:1 compression holy hell on e85 you should play with a smaller pully and double boost!!

then again im not familier with sbc's so i dont know how well the engine as far as rod bolts, head studs, and rods will hold up to that will hold up to that but just a fanciful thought :p

[SeanPlunk]

well looks like you got all your ducks in a line except for that blower. also 9.x:1 compression holy hell on e85 you should play with a smaller pully and double boost!!

then again im not familier with sbc's so i dont know how well the engine as far as rod bolts, head studs, and rods will hold up to that will hold up to that but just a fanciful thought :p

I don't think that particular blower is good for much more than 12psi. That is my understanding anyway :thumbs_up:

[94cobra69ss396]

well looks like you got all your ducks in a line except for that blower. also 9.x:1 compression holy hell on e85 you should play with a smaller pully and double boost!!

then again im not familier with sbc's so i dont know how well the engine as far as rod bolts, head studs, and rods will hold up to that will hold up to that but just a fanciful thought :p

The heads on this engine would lift with that much boost. Also, the 12psi is with the smaller pulley. Ben, also know that you are going to go through a lot more E85 then you will with race fuel because it needs a much richer mixture. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76 as opposed to 14.7 for gas.

I got this from www.e85mustangs.com (http://www.e85mustangs.com)

"For a late model modular Ford engine, we can tell you that it requires about 20% more fuel at part throttle, and about 40% more fuel at wide open throttle (WOT) so ensure you have adequate fuel flow to the cylinder before you begin. This is where the experience of a professional tuner becomes important to understand just how much fuel to add and when, to make the perfect fuel curve."

[Vettezuki]

The heads on this engine would lift with that much boost. Also, the 12psi is with the smaller pulley. Ben, also know that you are going to go through a lot more E85 then you will with race fuel because it needs a much richer mixture. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76 as opposed to 14.7 for gas.

I got this from www.e85mustangs.com (http://www.e85mustangs.com)

"For a late model modular Ford engine, we can tell you that it requires about 20% more fuel at part throttle, and about 40% more fuel at wide open throttle (WOT) so ensure you have adequate fuel flow to the cylinder before you begin. This is where the experience of a professional tuner becomes important to understand just how much fuel to add and when, to make the perfect fuel curve."

This I didn't know. I thought it was on the order of 15-20% across the curve. Adam has an LM2, and CornFed has quite a bit of experience melting engines, I mean tuning them for E85 now. :sm_up_there: But if it's on the order of 40% more fuel at WOT (where we'll be spending a lot of time :smack:), the cost savings by volume at purchase is considerably lower. I also, literally have a 76 with 100oct out of the pump less than a mile from my house.

[94cobra69ss396]

This I didn't know. I thought it was on the order of 15-20% across the curve. Adam has an LM2, and CornFed has quite a bit of experience melting engines, I mean tuning them for E85 now. :sm_up_there: But if it's on the order of 40% more fuel at WOT (where we'll be spending a lot of time :smack:), the cost savings by volume at purchase is considerably lower. I also, literally have a 76 with 100oct out of the pump less than a mile from my house.

No need to get 76 100oct at $8 a gallon. There is a place named Downs Oil Company off the 15 near the 91 in Corona that sells VP110 from the pump for around $6 - $7 a gallon. Just run it 50/50 with pump and we'll be good. This is what I do in the Chevelle so the gas ends up at around $4.50 a gallon or so.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

I don't think that particular blower is good for much more than 12psi. That is my understanding anyway :thumbs_up:

well everyone thought that 22psi or 350-380hp out of the stock evo turbo is just blowing hot air and out of its efficiency range....but e85 proved that wronge and pissed all over that!! on 91 people are runing 27psi and making 370hp and on e85 stock turbo evo's have gone up to 450hp at 30-34psi so efficiency range is up to your set up....and how much ball$$ you got lol.

and for mister cobra he is extremely right about e85 and how much more fuel u need to add.

when i talked to some older folk who grew up in the muscle car glory days threw the gas crisis...one of them suprisingly being a san berdoo sheriff...told me they would manually drill/open or agment there fuel jets on there carbs to accomadate for e85 usage when gas was on the fritz. and alot of the hardcore guys *his words* survived by jus beefing up there fuel system...essentually making everything bigger got crappy gas milage but put a fat ol small on there face when there foot opened the throttle.

so it is possible to run e85 nicely on this set up...if them oldie timers could do it back then...it should be too much of a hastle to do it now...

as for the 9.xx afr on idle and cruise you dont have to take that totally to heart.....

every cars afr at idle and cruise now in stock form from evo's to cobras to bugatti's is gonna be 14.7.....but thats only because 14.7 afr is the perfect afr for the least or best emissions at idle and cruise.

for most performance 12.5 is best and to save gas its pretty much 16.2-15.7 mainly whatever you car can take. i found out the hardway this too applyed to e85 :-( !! so when people say the best afr for e85 is 9.XX you pretty much saying that 9.xx is the best emissions for afr on e85.

and believe me i know just about every converted e85 car out there is running a 14.7 afr because the cars stock computer wants that number and people are daily driving that and getting a light multi cylinder misfire hell im getting it and it doesnt effect driving....but for e85 if you wanna cruise around safely and have 100% peace of mind id shoot for a 12.X afr but holy hell your gas milege will suck bawls!.... just some food for thought.

may people have many angles they like to tackle e85 from. as far as whats best only time will tell :drink:

[Leedom]

I want to fix the 174, pure and simple. The engine we have has forged pistons and a balanced stock assembly as I understand, not fully forged. It's a 302 with relatively low compression: 9.x:1.

If we can't fix the 174 there are two paths to get into vaguely the same performance level:
- Other FI solution
- Some kind of NA solution

A well thought out FI kit for the 302 and a stroker kit with big cam are going to run very similar price range all said and done, in other words, similar prices for similar results.

Can't we adapt a Eaton blower off a 03-04 Cobra to fit? Sean and I have seen them for as low as $450 on ebay.

[Vettezuki]

Can't we adapt a Eaton blower off a 03-04 Cobra to fit? Sean and I have seen them for as low as $450 on ebay.

Those are set up for fuel injection. We need a blower for a carb setup.

FMI, what model, how much displacement do those blowers have?

[BRUTAL64]

:popcorn:

[94cobra69ss396]

well everyone thought that 22psi or 350-380hp out of the stock evo turbo is just blowing hot air and out of its efficiency range....but e85 proved that wronge and pissed all over that!! on 91 people are runing 27psi and making 370hp and on e85 stock turbo evo's have gone up to 450hp at 30-34psi so efficiency range is up to your set up....and how much ball$$ you got lol.

and for mister cobra he is extremely right about e85 and how much more fuel u need to add.

when i talked to some older folk who grew up in the muscle car glory days threw the gas crisis...one of them suprisingly being a san berdoo sheriff...told me they would manually drill/open or agment there fuel jets on there carbs to accomadate for e85 usage when gas was on the fritz. and alot of the hardcore guys *his words* survived by jus beefing up there fuel system...essentually making everything bigger got crappy gas milage but put a fat ol small on there face when there foot opened the throttle.

so it is possible to run e85 nicely on this set up...if them oldie timers could do it back then...it should be too much of a hastle to do it now...

as for the 9.xx afr on idle and cruise you dont have to take that totally to heart.....

every cars afr at idle and cruise now in stock form from evo's to cobras to bugatti's is gonna be 14.7.....but thats only because 14.7 afr is the perfect afr for the least or best emissions at idle and cruise.

for most performance 12.5 is best and to save gas its pretty much 16.2-15.7 mainly whatever you car can take. i found out the hardway this too applyed to e85 :-( !! so when people say the best afr for e85 is 9.XX you pretty much saying that 9.xx is the best emissions for afr on e85.

and believe me i know just about every converted e85 car out there is running a 14.7 afr because the cars stock computer wants that number and people are daily driving that and getting a light multi cylinder misfire hell im getting it and it doesnt effect driving....but for e85 if you wanna cruise around safely and have 100% peace of mind id shoot for a 12.X afr but holy hell your gas milege will suck bawls!.... just some food for thought.

may people have many angles they like to tackle e85 from. as far as whats best only time will tell :drink:

Steve, there is no need to drill out the jets. We would just install bigger ones. However, you are the only one on this site that I know of who has tuned for E85 but your tuning was done with a CPU. How much experience do you have tuning a Holley carb? Do you know how many jet sizes we should go up for the E85? How about the discharge nozzle size? Should we up it to add more fuel on tip in or will the stock size work because of the larger jets? If we run race gas there are a lot of us who can easily make these adjustments from experience.

This was also taken from www.E85Mustangs.com (http://www.E85Mustangs.com)

"Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.

However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.

All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.

If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline."

If what they say is correct it would mean that when you tune your AFR to 12.5 at WOT according to your AFR gauge your stoich on E85 is actually around 8.25. And your cruise AFR of 16.2-15.7 is 10.7-10.3.

[Vettezuki]

QuickFuel makes E85 conversion kits for 4150 style carbs. It seems the main thing are different metering blocks, and ???. I know very little about carbs.


Make your carburetor go green!
Bring your carburetor into the new generation by going green. These Quick Fuel E85 billet metering block conversion kits feature standard calibration, screw-in idle feed restrictors, no secondary power valve provision, and a 4-mixture idle screw setup. The metering blocks are CNC-machined from billet aluminum and green anodized for protection. Specifically designed for use with E85 fuels, these Quick Fuel E85 billet metering block conversion kits will give your carburetor the adjustability you've been looking for, all while protecting the environment and going green.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/qft-34-106_w.jpg

[94cobra69ss396]

QuickFuel makes E85 conversion kits for 4150 style carbs. It seems the main thing are different metering blocks, and ???. I know very little about carbs.



http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/qft-34-106_w.jpg

These are add on metering plates, they don't replace your current ones. My dad has these on his carb only they're made by someone else, not sure who. What you do is remove the jets from your current metering plates and bolt these on. That's why they come with longer bolts. On the top of these new metering blocks are a couple of screws that allow your to change the jet size by turning them just like you do with the idle mixture screws. This keeps you from having to pull the float bowls off to change jets.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

Steve, there is no need to drill out the jets. We would just install bigger ones. However, you are the only one on this site that I know of who has tuned for E85 but your tuning was done with a CPU. How much experience do you have tuning a Holley carb? Do you know how many jet sizes we should go up for the E85? How about the discharge nozzle size? Should we up it to add more fuel on tip in or will the stock size work because of the larger jets? If we run race gas there are a lot of us who can easily make these adjustments from experience.

This was also taken from www.E85Mustangs.com (http://www.E85Mustangs.com)

"Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.

However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.

All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.

If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline."

If what they say is correct it would mean that when you tune your AFR to 12.5 at WOT according to your AFR gauge your stoich on E85 is actually around 8.25. And your cruise AFR of 16.2-15.7 is 10.7-10.3.

hmmm well transfering over cpu/fuel injection theory to carb theory should be the same.

i admit i dont know crap about carbs except that they have jets...look crazy when you tear them apart....and have a throttle plate...but they thoery of e85 should hold true to any type of fuel delivery u throw it at.

basicly at your engines peak fuel consumption at WOT from peak tq to redline you want to throw in 25-35% more e85 then whatever your using now. so your gonna want to compensate for that range by giving yourself a fuel delivery system that can pump out 25-35% more then your current set up would need with average race gas.


here is my real world example

on my current set up i would easily be maxing out a 700cc - 800cc *66.5lb-76lb* injector on race gas

well if i add 35% more feeding capability to those injectors they turn into
945cc - 1080cc or **90lb-102lb** injectors which comes into range with what im using now which are 1200cc or 114lb injectors i went slightly bigger just to give myself a tad bit of head room.

so whatever size jets you use on a sbc application in whatever the hp range you guys are shooting for on this project....add 35% to that size.....im unfamiliar with jet sizes so its up to you guys to come up with that answer.

i hope this helped a little in figuring out a jet size

also dont forget about beefing up the fuel pump and im not sure how fuel pumps worked back then but i know in my experience to feed a 4 banger is already on the edge of maxing out a beefy fuel delivery system....so too feed 8 cylinders on a carb you would probably want to up the fuel pressure along with a beefy pumping system

[joedls]

Finally got through to Ed at PSE Superchargers in Oklahoma. He said because this is a B&M Unit, nobody has original parts anymore, however, Weiand took over production and some parts are interchangable. Basically he'd have to see it to give an estimate. Minimum rebuild is $650, shop rate for repairs is $125/hr. We could at least send it in for an estimate. :huh: Whattaya think Joe?

What makes you think it's a B&M unit? This is a Holley/Weiand unit. And I have not seen the replacement parts we need on Holley's website.

I think we should wait until after the Long Beach swapmeet before we send it anyplace for an estimate. If we can't find the parts there, you can send it somewhere for an estimate. But frankly, if they can't tell you they can get the parts, I think it's a waste of time.

When it's all said and done, if it can't be repaired in time for your project, I would want the blower back. Eventually, I'll find the parts needed to fix it.

[Vettezuki]

What makes you think it's a B&M unit? This is a Holley/Weiand unit. And I have not seen the replacement parts we need on Holley's website.

I think we should wait until after the Long Beach swapmeet before we send it anyplace for an estimate. If we can't find the parts there, you can send it somewhere for an estimate. But frankly, if they can't tell you they can get the parts, I think it's a waste of time.

When it's all said and done, if it can't be repaired in time for your project, I would want the blower back. Eventually, I'll find the parts needed to fix it.

When I was talking to Ed he asked if it had Forced Induction written on the Snout. This is when he said something about parts availability and B&M. I agree we should wait until the LB Swap meet. Also, if I can take a look at it, I may be able to to have the parts needed machined. That bearing plate doesn't look too complicated.

[Vettezuki]

Began stripping the engine down. This was my first time doing this kinda work, and I learned the push rods just sort of fall out when you pull the heads. :leaving: You can click on the images for the hi-res versions.

Stock heads on the block.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_1.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6418)

The pistons look pretty carbonized to me, nothing a little Sea Foam won't fix. Also, I'm a tiny bit suspicious about valve clearance with our new heads. . .
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_6.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6419)

Another view of the rockers we'll be using.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_2.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6417)

Get'n neked.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_4.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6415)

[joedls]

Began stripping the engine down. This was my first time doing this kinda work, and I learned the push rods just sort of fall out when you pull the heads. :leaving: You can click on the images for the hi-res versions.

Stock heads on the block.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_1.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6418)

The pistons look pretty carbonized to me, nothing a little Sea Foam won't fix. Also, I'm a tiny bit suspicious about valve clearance with our new heads. . .
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_6.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6419)

Another view of the rockers we'll be using.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_2.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6417)

Get'n neked.
http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads_4.JPG (http://motorgen.com/pic/showfull.php?photo=6415)


Uh oh. What size valves are on those heads you purchased?

[94cobra69ss396]

Uh oh. What size valves are on those heads you purchased?

Those are stock style pistons. The largest valve we can run on the intake is a 1.94 without notching the pistons or replacing them. Also, what ratio are the rockers, 1.6 or 1.7?

[joedls]

Those are stock style pistons. The largest valve we can run on the intake is a 1.94 without notching the pistons or replacing them. Also, what ratio are the rockers, 1.6 or 1.7?


Yeah, that's why I asked about the size of the valves in the heads he purchased. Those are 1.6 ratio rockers.

[BRUTAL64]

Ben:
How about a picture of the stock head chambers?

[joedls]

When I was talking to Ed he asked if it had Forced Induction written on the Snout. This is when he said something about parts availability and B&M. I agree we should wait until the LB Swap meet. Also, if I can take a look at it, I may be able to to have the parts needed machined. That bearing plate doesn't look too complicated.

I pulled the end plate off last night. It's in two pieces. I'll bring them to work on Monday. Also, I need to go through my storage and find the other piece that broke off the shaft housing. Without that, it really won't help you determine whether you can machine one. If I find the broken piece, I'll bring those on Monday as well.

[Vettezuki]

Ben:
How about a picture of the stock head chambers?

Ruh Roh. The intake valve is 1.75", as are the reliefs on the piston. Our valves are 2". So, can forged pistons have the reliefs widened?

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads7.JPG (http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/771/PullingStockHeads7.JPG)

[BRUTAL64]

Ruh Roh. The intake valve is 1.75", as are the reliefs on the piston. Our valves are 2". So, can forged pistons have the reliefs widened?

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/771/medium/PullingStockHeads7.JPG (http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/771/PullingStockHeads7.JPG)

Depending on the piston manufacture. Yes, you SHOULD be able to fly cut the pistons for 2.02 valves. BUT! Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. If we have to go NA, then new piston would be needed.:drink:

Ben: Get me a part number off the top of one of the pistions.


Hey, look at the chamber. What is FORD doing with their chamber here that FORD started YEARS before anyone else????

[Vettezuki]

Depending on the piston manufacture. Yes, you SHOULD be able to fly cut the pistons for 2.02 valves. BUT! Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. If we have to go NA, then new piston would be needed.:drink:


Hey, look at the chamber. What is FORD doing with their chamber here that FORD started YEARS before anyone else????

Yeah, I won't do anything with the pistons until we know if we're going boost or NA. I'm still holding out a lot of hope the 174 can be economically repaired.

An no, I don't know what Ford did before others did. Please do tell.

[BRUTAL64]

Yeah, I won't do anything with the pistons until we know if we're going boost or NA. I'm still holding out a lot of hope the 174 can be economically repaired.

An no, I don't know what Ford did before others did. Please do tell.

Pointing the spark plug toward the exhaust valve and getting it as high in the chamber as they could. Too bad the exhaust port is shit. These could have been good heads.


See if you can get me a part number off the top of the pistons.

I work Saturday, so I'll see the number before Monday.

[Vettezuki]

. . .

See if you can get me a part number off the top of the pistons.

Looks like L2305.

[94cobra69ss396]

Pointing the spark plug toward the exhaust valve and getting it as high in the chamber as they could. Too bad the exhaust port is shit. These could have been good heads.


See if you can get me a part number off the top of the pistons.

You can see the p/n on one of the pistons and the Speed Pro logo on the another. I looked the p/n up on Summit and here is the piston http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=TRW%2DL2305F30&autoview=sku.

[BRUTAL64]

You can see the p/n on one of the pistons and the Speed Pro logo on the another. I looked the p/n up on Summit and here is the piston http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=TRW%2DL2305F30&autoview=sku.

Man, you are fast. Yes, we could ( if needed ) fly cut the pistons. These are TRW/SpeedPro- good (not super, but good enough for what we are doing) forgings.:thumbs_up:

[Vettezuki]

Man, you are fast. Yes, we could ( if needed ) fly cut the pistons. These are TRW/SpeedPro- good (not super, but good enough for what we are doing) forgings.:thumbs_up:

Well, in any event, these pistons have to come out to either be cut or replaced. . . right?

[BRUTAL64]

Well, in any event, these pistons have to come out to either be cut or replaced. . . right?

I used to fly cut pistons still in the block. There was special tool for that.
But, even with the new heads, it doesn't mean the piston will need to be cut.

We need to do a test fit with the heads and cam with clay or valve drop measurement.


I have soft springs for valve drop.

[94cobra69ss396]

Well, in any event, these pistons have to come out to either be cut or replaced. . . right?

No. There is a tool that you can buy that allows you to cut the piston by installing the head and using the valve guide. It's made by Isky Cams.

[Vettezuki]

Does fly cutting affect the balance, or as long as it's done consistently the difference will be too small?

[94cobra69ss396]

Ben, Are you and Adam going to stop by tomorrow to check out the car? I'm going to work on the cage tomorrow and see if I can finish it up.

[Vettezuki]

Ben, Are you and Adam going to stop by tomorrow to check out the car? I'm going to work on the cage tomorrow and see if I can finish it up.

Tentatively yes. I need to confirm with the Adam.

[94cobra69ss396]

Does fly cutting affect the balance, or as long as it's done consistently the difference will be too small?

Yes, it effects the balance. Welcome to engine building!

[BRUTAL64]

Well, that is a tough question. Depends on how much you cut. But, any I did still in the engine, I didn't do a rebalance. But, if we do it on the SBF engine- cause I said it would be ok, it'll be too far out of balance.

[Vettezuki]

Yes, it effects the balance. Welcome to engine building!

Well then, instead of spending money on the tool, perhaps it makes more sense to pull the whole assembly, have them fly cut and rebalanced? That's if it proves necessary after test fitting according to Glenn.

[BRUTAL64]

Well then, instead of spending money on the tool, perhaps it makes more sense to pull the whole assembly, have them fly cut and rebalanced? That's if it proves necessary after test fitting according to Glenn.


You just want to take that engine apart don't you? Come on, fess up.:laugh:

If you want to take it apart then I can show you how to deburr the whole block.

[Vettezuki]

You just want to take that engine apart don't you? Come on, fess up.:laugh:

If you want to take it apart then I can show you how to deburr the whole block.

It's true actually. :thumbs_up:

I want to take the WHOLE thing apart and put it back together as a learning process. But I want to understand the pros and cons of doing it different ways. The only hesitation I have, though I don't think it's a problem with our schedule, is I don't want to go down a rabbit hole that ends up delaying the whole project for some peculiar reason. While there is no special event this must be done for, I'd kind of like to have something to show at some stage at Fabulous Fords Forever (April 19) and to be able to campaign the car all over SoCal from the Spring . . . since other than fun for us the point is exposure and promotion.

[BRUTAL64]

Ok, a GOOD FORD guy can assemble a SBF in 5 hours with one helper. You want to take it apart, do it. It wouldn't hurt to inspect the piston skirts and crank for loading/wear issues. Then I'll come by and SHOW you how to deburr the block and do a few little things to insure the block will not get stress cracks. Kinda important with Forced Induction.

One small thing. Were the rod bolts done with pure torque, or done by bolt stretch?

[Vettezuki]

Ok, a GOOD FORD guy can assemble a SBF in 5 hours with one helper. You want to take it apart, do it. It wouldn't hurt to inspect the piston skirts and crank for loading/wear issues. Then I'll come by and SHOW you how to deburr the block and do a few little things to insure the block will not get stress cracks. Kinda important with Forced Induction.

OK. Cool. Any super important things I should be aware of when taking it apart, like order of removal, or (as it has been so far) pretty self evident?

I've got a book on SBC that details disassembly/assembly of OHV engines, I imagine the procedures are pretty much the same right? Or do you have any links I should study before continuing?

[BRUTAL64]

OK. Cool. Any super important things I should be aware of when taking it apart, like order of removal, or (as it has been so far) pretty self evident?

I've got a book on SBC that details disassembly/assembly of OHV engines, I imagine the procedures are pretty much the same right? Or do you have any links I should study before continuing?

Just make sure you put something on the rod bolts BEFORE you push the pistons out ot the block. You can use 3/8 fuel line. Protect the crank at all costs. Don't hit the rod caps too hard to split them.

Keep the rods and pistons in order ( stamp them if you want ).

Carefull pulling the cam out, twist as you pull it out- easy as you go.


The more anal the better.


You CAN call me if you want on any questions.:drink:

[Vettezuki]

Thanks Glenn.

You guys don't need it, but maybe if someone else asks you can check these videos out.

(Example) Removing Pistons:
YouTube - Engine Building Video - Piston Removal - Chevy V8 Small Block

The site
http://boxwrench.3dcartstores.com/Basic-Engine-Building-DVD_p_0-8.html

Somebody put some pretty serious money into the production. All those animated fly-aways are expensive to produce. Very cool

[BRUTAL64]

Thanks Glenn.

You guys don't need it, but maybe if someone else asks you can check these videos out.

(Example) Removing Pistons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh8yo_q15qU

The site
http://boxwrench.3dcartstores.com/Basic-Engine-Building-DVD_p_0-8.html

Somebody put some pretty serious money into the production. All those animated fly-aways are expensive to produce. Very cool

Like I said "anal" is good here.;) The first vid is good for removing pistons. The second, since I could not run it, is unknown.

[Leedom]

Ben, just do not put the engine back together yourself. I am sure plenty of us would love to help and learn as well. I am sure that Sean for example would love to stand around and watch. He will point to something a few times and do his best to get some grease on himself. Relax Sean, every good team needs a guy who can order and get a good pizza. That can be your role.

[Vettezuki]

Ben, just do not put the engine back together yourself. I am sure plenty of us would love to help and learn as well. I am sure that Sean for example would love to stand around and watch. He will point to something a few times and do his best to get some grease on himself. Relax Sean, every good team needs a guy who can order and get a good pizza. That can be your role.

Sure we can have a complete reassembly day where the whole thing goes back together. I'll do the labor, somebody who knows what they are doing like Glenn or Ron can guide/instruct and the rest of ya'lls can observe.

[94cobra69ss396]

Sure we can have a complete reassembly day where the whole thing goes back together. I'll do the labor, somebody who knows what they are doing like Glenn or Ron can guide/instruct and the rest of ya'lls can observe.


Like Glenn said, before you pull the pistons out check to make sure that the rod and rod cap have been stamped. This engine has already been rebuilt so I'm guessing the shop that built it already stamped them. Each rod and cap should have a number stamped on them from 1 to 8 for the appropriate cylinder. Make note of which direction the stamp is facing. We will want to install them in the same direction that they are now. If they aren't already stamped don't pull them. Wait until someone can stamp them. If Glenn doesn't have the stamps (I'm sure he does) Phil does and I can barrow them from him.

As for the cage, I worked on it from about 10am until 4:30pm and I finished making the drivers side main hoop support and got it welded in. I also made the drivers side door bar and got it welded in. I didn't take any pictures but I will later and post them up. All I need to do is make the passenger side door bar and get it welded in and the roll bar will be completed.

[Vettezuki]

Like Glenn said, before you pull the pistons out check to make sure that the rod and rod cap have been stamped. This engine has already been rebuilt so I'm guessing the shop that built it already stamped them. Each rod and cap should have a number stamped on them from 1 to 8 for the appropriate cylinder. Make note of which direction the stamp is facing. We will want to install them in the same direction that they are now. If they aren't already stamped don't pull them. Wait until someone can stamp them. If Glenn doesn't have the stamps (I'm sure he does) Phil does and I can barrow them from him.

As for the cage, I worked on it from about 10am until 4:30pm and I finished making the drivers side main hoop support and got it welded in. I also made the drivers side door bar and got it welded in. I didn't take any pictures but I will later and post them up. All I need to do is make the passenger side door bar and get it welded in and the roll bar will be completed.

I got a bottle crate today to contain the pistons in order. I will mark them to indicate direction as well. As always, thanks for your great work on the cage. :drink:

[Vettezuki]

I'm still holding out hope for the 174.

This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120313842316&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us) looks like a pretty good carb for that app. Check specs:

[94cobra69ss396]

I'm still holding out hope for the 174.

This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120313842316&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us) looks like a pretty good carb for that app. Check specs:

I don't think we are going to want a vacuum secondary carb. I would go with a double pumper.

[Vettezuki]

I don't think we are going to want a vacuum secondary carb. I would go with a double pumper.

What's the theory?

I don't know much about carbs, but the only thing I can kinda sort of think of is that IF we were to run a big cam, which we wouldn't necessarily change if the blower works, there can be issues with low vacuum.

[big2bird]

What's the theory?

I don't know much about carbs, but the only thing I can kinda sort of think of is that IF we were to run a big cam, which we wouldn't necessarily change if the blower works, there can be issues with low vacuum.

Basic rule of thumb:
Auto trans/Vacuum sec.
Manual trans/Mech sec.

Vac secondaries are better milage/mech sec for BEST accel.:thumbs_up:

[94cobra69ss396]

You can find a used Holley carb at the Long Beach Swap meet next weekend. Phil and I went to the last one and there were a ton of them there. You should be able to pick one up for around $50. Then we can just rebuild it. A rebuild kit cost about $50. We can also use a power valve block off plate ($4.50 from Summit) and run larger jets in the secondaries so we don't have to try and tune it for the power valve. This is the same way my carb is on the Chevelle.