Effect of an oil cooler on combustion temprature

[Vettezuki]

I have a Heads and Cam LSx with about 11.1:1 static compression. It is tuned very mildly regarding timing, about 18 degrees total, and needs about 93 octane to run without knocking under heavy load and hotter ambient tempratures. I was thinking maybe an oil cooler would help the situation (more timing or lower octane fuel) by lowering the combustion chamber temperatures. :huh: I'm I thinking correctly? Can cooling the oil make much of a difference in combustion chamber temps?

[94cobra69ss396]

I have a Heads and Cam LSx with about 11.1:1 static compression. It is tuned very mildly regarding timing, about 18 degrees total, and needs about 93 octane to run without knocking under heavy load and hotter ambient tempratures. I was thinking maybe an oil cooler would help the situation (more timing or lower octane fuel) by lowering the combustion chamber temperatures. :huh: I'm I thinking correctly? Can cooling the oil make much of a difference in combustion chamber temps?

I doubt it will help that much but it would be easy to test. Add the cooler and then run the tank near empty. The add a couple gallons of 87 and see. If it pings under load just fill the rest of the tank with 91.

[BADDASSC6]

1) The real issue is that you need a tune. Lowering the oil temps if they are not unreasonably high is a band aid.

2) I think you already have one, but if you don't I would go for a 160F thermostat.

3) What spark plugs are you running? This can make a big difference. I like the old school autolights. I will stay away from any platinum shit. The stay hotter which helps them last alot longer, but they are way more likely to detonate.

4) As a referance point for a similar motor: Normal friving oil temperature is about 200-215F, When I'm road racing oil the oil will get to 255F. With the new synthetic oils thier breakdown limits are so high that you would have other major failures before that point.

Go get a tune;)

[Vettezuki]

1) The real issue is that you need a tune. Lowering the oil temps if they are not unreasonably high is a band aid.

2) I think you already have one, but if you don't I would go for a 160F thermostat.

3) What spark plugs are you running? This can make a big difference. I like the old school autolights. I will stay away from any platinum shit. The stay hotter which helps them last alot longer, but they are way more likely to detonate.

4) As a referance point for a similar motor: Normal friving oil temperature is about 200-215F, When I'm road racing oil the oil will get to 255F. With the new synthetic oils thier breakdown limits are so high that you would have other major failures before that point.

Go get a tune;)

I have a tune. It took a full day from a reputable tuner. He said I might have higher compression than advertised. With 91 octane, 18 degrees total timing is all he could do before it got ugly. I run Torco (about 1 quart to 15 galoons for a net of about 93 octane, I can explain if you want). With that it's safe, but there's probably A LOT on the table with tuning and higher octane. The Vette my motor was originally in gat 432 to the wheels with mid length headers and the ls1 intake. I have an ls6 intake, a different TB, stock manifolds and of course the C3 IRS, and the best I've gotten is 391. My Dyno chart was reviewed by a serious F-Body guy who said there was a little on the table in the way of low end torque with the same octane, but it was otherwise already idealized.

HOWEVER
I'm running a stock temp thermostat. I don't recall what that is, but it's not 160. And I'm running Iridium plugs

MY GUESS
Since I'm running a fairly high compression motor with retarded timing, there's a bit on the table. The main problem is heat causing pre-detonation thus requiring retarded timing. If I can lower some of the temps and up the timing, I can get some "free" power.

[BRUTAL64]

I have a tune. It took a full day from a reputable tuner. He said I might have higher compression than advertised. With 91 octane, 18 degrees total timing is all he could do before it got ugly. I run Torco (about 1 quart to 15 galoons for a net of about 93 octane, I can explain if you want). With that it's safe, but there's probably A LOT on the table with tuning and higher octane. The Vette my motor was originally in gat 432 to the wheels with mid length headers and the ls1 intake. I have an ls6 intake, a different TB, stock manifolds and of course the C3 IRS, and the best I've gotten is 391. My Dyno chart was reviewed by a serious F-Body guy who said there was a little on the table in the way of low end torque with the same octane, but it was otherwise already idealized.

HOWEVER
I'm running a stock temp thermostat. I don't recall what that is, but it's not 160. And I'm running Iridium plugs

MY GUESS
Since I'm running a fairly high compression motor with retarded timing, there's a bit on the table. The main problem is heat causing pre-detonation thus requiring retarded timing. If I can lower some of the temps and up the timing, I can get some "free" power.


18 total timing or 18 degrees at idle???

I run 34 total degrees at 2,500 rpm with 11 to 1 compression.

I have 15 degrees timing at idle.

[BADDASSC6]

There has to be something wrong for it to detonate with a tune. Regardless of your compression ratio, when you tune a car it was not detonating at that point so the question then becomes what have you changed. I'm assuming that the throttle body and the manifolds were changed out prior to your tune.

Have you inspected the spark plugs?? I would start there to see if any/all of them have any fouling, carbon build up, or signs of detonation. If someone had an engine scanner they could determine which cylinders were having pre-ignition and see what fault codes were showing. I had a differential pressure sensor go out on my mustang which made the EGR valve fail open which ultimately cost me a motor in hte mustang. Alot of times a code scanner is the easiest way to get down to the root cause.

[Vettezuki]

There has to be something wrong for it to detonate with a tune.

To be clear, it does not detonate with my tune, we just had to retard the timing and adjust the A/F curve to not detonate. My tune will run ok on 91, but will ping on warmer days in the summer. With one quart of torco (very roughly 93 octane) I have no problems in any weather with any driving "style".

In other words, the tune I have is very conservative in order to protect the motor. This is not a new problem. There is power to be had with just a tune, if I fix other variables. Higher octane is the easy one, but I don't want to run race fuel everywhere. A quart of Torco per tank is fine, but that's my limit. That's why I thought things like an oil cooler, which might lower combustion temps might help. Also headers, which will lower cylinder back pressure might help. Then I can go back and get a new tune with the improved dynamics and pick up some cheap power. :bigthumbsup:

[Vettezuki]

18 total timing or 18 degrees at idle???

I run 34 total degrees at 2,500 rpm with 11 to 1 compression.

I have 15 degrees timing at idle.

18 degrees total as I recall. The tuner was surprised that's all he could put in and wondered if the motor might actually be higher comp than advertised.

The vette the motor was in before had a lot of different variables than I do. Including

cold air intake
Aftermarket TB
LS1 intake
Headers and different exhaust
Ran 50/50 91 octane and 100 octane (I think)
aggressive tune
432WHP in a C5

I have
hot air intake
ported truck tb
LS6 intake
stock manifolds and custom dual cat back
Run 91 octane with 1 quart of Torco
conservative tune
391WHP in a C3

[BADDASSC6]

Did you use the Torco when you had the car originally tuned?

[Vettezuki]

Did you use the Torco when you had the car originally tuned?

No.

The original tune was on 91. With that final conservative tune it wouldn't detonate, but would ping on hotter days and/or heavier loads. With the Torco it is totally fine. It's just that with such retarded timing on a high compression motor, power is being left on the table. I'm just trying to tap that power without going to a race fuel mix if possible. The other "easy" solution is to use a cometic gasket and drop the compression, then go for an agressive tune on 91. :huh: But if I can keep my higher compression and go for the agressive tune on 91 + a little torco, that'd be cool. Right now, I have a conservative tune on 91 (and I run torco for safety).

The things I can think of doing to make it more agressivel tunable w/o using race fuel mix are:
- oil cooler (reducing combution chamber temps)
- find a way to get cooler air, if not cold
- headers (reducing cylinder backpressure?)
- cooler thermostat? I have heard lots of mixed opinions on this surrounding thermodynamics. I tend to understand the arguments against running a cooler thermostat and keeping the stock one instead.
- plugs? I'm running iridium plugs. Would a more standard plug be better for some reason, like be cooler when not firing?

Slam dunk solutions
- Race fuel mix (pretty opposed)
- Cometic gasket dropping compression (prefer not to)

[joedls]

Have you thought about water/methanol injection? Also, I don't know which Cometic head gasket you are thinking of, but the MLS Cometic gaskets I used on my 347 stroker were actually thinner than a standard gasket, thus increasing compression.

Another thing that could be causing your engine to not take alot of spark could be hot spots in the combustion chambers or hot spots on the piston faces. Have you tried using a colder plug?

[BADDASSC6]

I asked the plug question on my first post.

Ben, I'm not trying to break your balls:nutkick:. Take out the spark plugs or bet this someone that has a code scanner (i.e. enkievette) and see which cylinders are having issues. Chances are it's not all of them. Check the plugs for fouling signs of excessive heat and carbon buid-up. If you can identify the problem cylinders then do an inspection of all the fuel and spark components on those cylinder. Check the plug wires and spark packs with a multimeter. Try swapping out the fuel injectors with some that you know work fine or switch them with ones from another cylinder and see what happens. If you can find anything wrong then get the car retuned. check your fuel filter also. If it;'se clogged it might work fine under partial flow conditions, but might have enough of a clog to prevent sufficient fuel at WOT.

[Vettezuki]

Have you thought about water/methanol injection? Also, I don't know which Cometic head gasket you are thinking of, but the MLS Cometic gaskets I used on my 347 stroker were actually thinner than a standard gasket, thus increasing compression.

Another thing that could be causing your engine to not take alot of spark could be hot spots in the combustion chambers or hot spots on the piston faces. Have you tried using a colder plug?


I had considered alcohol injection, but on an NA motor that seems pretty gay. Cometic has a specific model for lowering comp by almost a full point on an LS motor. At least that's what I've heard.

[BRUTAL64]

I had considered alcohol injection, but on an NA motor that seems pretty gay. Cometic has a specific model for lowering comp by almost a full point on an LS motor. At least that's what I've heard.

I ran water injection on my Vette for 20 years. Once I tighted up the quench and cleaned the chambers smooth (and a little reshaping) and smoothed all sharp areas off the pistions, I could then do away with the water injection.

This was WITH Iron Heads and a true static compression of 11:1.

There has to be a reason you are pinging with such little full advance. Did you have the heads off this motor before you put it in your Vette? There could be some issues with the chambers and maybe a LOT of carbon build up. Just throwing thoughts around. I like BADASSC6 ideas though. :drink:

[Vettezuki]

...
There has to be a reason you are pinging with such little full advance. Did you have the heads off this motor before you put it in your Vette? There could be some issues with the chambers and maybe a LOT of carbon build up.


When the heads were off, they weren't particularly carboned up and I did a Sea Foam treatment (which has worked wonders on other cars I've done it to but nothing came out on the Vette, my guess is they're pretty darn clean).

My guess is this.
- Compression is perhaps higher than the advertised 11.1:1
- I'm getting fairly hot air. The intake is in the engine compartment and basically rests against the rad hose, not exactly ideal.
- Stock manifolds might be a bit restrictive causing unnecessarily high cylinder pressure/temp :huh:

It only pings if I'm on 91, on a hottish day and under load. Still though . . .

Fuel system (except injectors), plugs and wires were new and only have 7,000 miles on them now. Coil packs were older. I've done fully logged high speed heavy load runs the systems are all working as expected, no misfires, injector duty cycles are well within norms, no codes, nothing.

Bottom line, the combustion process needs to cool down or octane go up so I can put some real timing in. This is the basis of my original question, will an oil cooler actually cool the combustion chambers, or is it just to keep oil from breaking down?

Anywho, it's not like 391WHP is weak sauce and putting in a little Torco for safety now and then ain't such a big deal. But the idea some potentially meaningful power is only some timing away is alluring. I will get it retuned when I get some headers sometime next year. I'd love to get to 440WHP on my little NA 346.

[BRUTAL64]

When the heads were off, they weren't particularly carboned up and I did a Sea Foam treatment (which has worked wonders on other cars I've done it to but nothing came out on the Vette, my guess is they're pretty darn clean).

My guess is this.
- Compression is perhaps higher than the advertised 11.1:1
- I'm getting fairly hot air. The intake is in the engine compartment and basically rests against the rad hose, not exactly ideal.
- Stock manifolds might be a bit restrictive causing unnecessarily high cylinder pressure/temp :huh:

It only pings if I'm on 91, on a hottish day and under load. Still though . . .

Fuel system (except injectors), plugs and wires were new and only have 7,000 miles on them now. Coil packs were older. I've done fully logged high speed heavy load runs the systems are all working as expected, no misfires, injector duty cycles are well within norms, no codes, nothing.

Bottom line, the combustion process needs to cool down or octane go up so I can put some real timing in. This is the basis of my original question, will an oil cooler actually cool the combustion chambers, or is it just to keep oil from breaking down?

Anywho, it's not like 391WHP is weak sauce and putting in a little Torco for safety now and then ain't such a big deal. But the idea some potentially meaningful power is only some timing away is alluring. I will get it retuned when I get some headers sometime next year. I'd love to get to 440WHP on my little NA 346.



Two things to consider 1) oil needs to get to a certain temp to rid itself of moisture. So it needs to get to about 180/190 degrees.
2) Cold oil does not flow well.

So first question; Are you planing getting your engine temp below or at 160 degrees?

So on compression, give me all your specs on bore and stroke, chamber size, type of pistons and dish or popup size. Don't forget gasket thickness. Do you have any idea of the piston depth at TDC below deck?

Lets see what's up.:huh:

How about FULL cam specs, if possible. If not what you do have on the cam.

I figured out how to get 91 octane to work with 11:1 with iron heads in the 80s.
Your engine will be simpler to figure out.\


Hold the phone-(another thought)--is your EGR valve working? If it isn't it can cause your engine to ping.

[Vettezuki]

So first question; Are you planing getting your engine temp below or at 160 degrees?



I don't think so. Stock (190 I think) thermostat for now.

So on compression, give me all your specs on bore and stroke, chamber size, type of pistons and dish or popup size. Don't forget gasket thickness.

Bore, Stroke, Piston Type and Gasket thickness are all bone stock LS1. I'm running the OEM MLS gasket. I can look up the numbers, but don't remember off the top of my head.

The heads are 4.8L Truck heads that have been milled and massively ported. 66cc chambers as I recall.


Do you have any idea of the piston depth at TDC below deck?

Un, no.

How about FULL cam specs, if possible. If not what you do have on the cam.

I'm pretty sure it was a comp cams. I don't have the cam card, but might have a receipt for model from the original owner . . .

224/224 114 LSA .566 Lift

[BRUTAL64]

I don't think so. Stock (190 I think) thermostat for now.



Bore, Stroke, Piston Type and Gasket thickness are all bone stock LS1. I'm running the OEM MLS gasket. I can look up the numbers, but don't remember off the top of my head.

The heads are 4.8L Truck heads that have been milled and massively ported. 66cc chambers as I recall.




Un, no.



I'm pretty sure it was a comp cams. I don't have the cam card, but might have a receipt for model from the original owner . . .

224/224 114 LSA .566 Lift


Hold the phone-(another thought)--is your EGR valve working? If it isn't it can cause your engine to ping. That valve ACTUALLY helps keep combustion temps down.

[BRUTAL64]

The EGR valve thing could be a factor. That will need to be cheched
------------------------------------------------------
"I don't think so. Stock (190 I think) thermostat for now."

We may want to lower that if possible. Computer uses temp to regulate a number of functions. Don't know if lowering the therm temp is possible on this year with out major Computer changes. Any one???

"Bore, Stroke, Piston Type and Gasket thickness are all bone stock LS1. I'm running the OEM MLS gasket. I can look up the numbers, but don't remember off the top of my head."

Ok, I'll work with that, but it would HELP to have gasket thickness.

"The heads are 4.8L Truck heads that have been milled and massively ported. 66cc chambers as I recall."

Ok, being milled is going to be a BIG factor. How much was milled? We really will need to know this. Or, is the 66 cc after milling?


"I'm pretty sure it was a comp cams. I don't have the cam card, but might have a receipt for model from the original owner . . ."


What I was hoping for was the intake lobe center line.

[Vettezuki]

The EGR valve thing could be a factor.

Don't gots one on my motor. I think 2000 was the last year and mine is setup like a 2001.

[BRUTAL64]

Don't gots one on my motor. I think 2000 was the last year and mine is setup like a 2001.

Ok, if you ARE sure.


Try and get me the milling specs.

I'll get started in the morning on this. We'll get it figured out. No motor has EVER stumped me.:drink:

[Vettezuki]

We may want to lower that if possible. Computer uses temp to regulate a number of functions. Don't know if lowering the therm temp is possible on this year with out major Computer changes. Any one???


The computer only controls the temperatures at which the fans go on. The thermostat is obviously "mechanical".

Ok, I'll work with that, but it would HELP to have gasket thickness.

I'll see what I can do.


Ok, being milled is going to be a BIG factor. How much was milled? We really will need to know this. Or, is the 66 cc after milling?

That is my understanding, after milling size is 66cc.


What I was hoping for was the intake lobe center line.

Mmm, could be difficult, unless I can find the model and work back.

[BRUTAL64]

The computer only controls the temperatures at which the fans go on. The thermostat is obviously "mechanical".



I'll see what I can do.




That is my understanding, after milling size is 66cc.




Mmm, could be difficult, unless I can find the model and work back.


I'll work with this. I'm doing this at work, but should have something by the afternoon.:drink:

[BRUTAL64]

I'll work with this. I'm doing this at work, but should have something by the afternoon.:drink:

I did a quick run thru on this. Even with the tightest specs it only comes to 10.52 to 1. I will need to have the other figures I asked for this to get your "real" compression. But, at this point it appears compression is not the issue. At least with the specs I have so far.:drink:

I can get it to almost 11 to 1 if I really tighten the specs up. This is taking into account that everything is as you said and is at smallest possible clearences with a "tight" headgasket.

Just for fun--- 399 hp with 476 ft lbs of tq. This is what I got with the numbers you supplied me so far.

If you can get me some flow numbers on your ported heads, I can refine the HP numbers

[Vettezuki]

I did a quick run thru on this. Even with the tightest specs it only comes to 10.52 to 1. I will need to have the other figures I asked for this to get your "real" compression. But, at this point it appears compression is not the issue. At least with the specs I have so far.:drink:

I can get it to almost 11 to 1 if I really tighten the specs up. This is taking into account that everything is as you said and is at smallest possible clearences with a "tight" headgasket.

Just for fun--- 399 hp with 476 ft lbs of tq. This is what I got with the numbers you supplied me so far.

If you can get me some flow numbers on your ported heads, I can refine the HP numbers

Well, I know what my HP/TQ numbers are in the real world. 391HP@6,000~ 360 something torqe@4,000~ to the wheels. You where there home skillet.

I've been digging through receipts and records and can't find much more detailed info. The head gasket came from the kit PN 12499218. The heads flow (on paper 305cfm). I believe the cam is a rebadged, (maybe modified?) Comp Cams G2 224/224 114. However, according to comp cams that's 580 lift and my receipt says 566. :huh: Technically the Cam is a Morgan Motorsports VS3 LS1 Cam indicated as 224/224 114LSA 566/566

The heads are Morgan Motorsports Stage 2x. They are based on 4.8L Truck heads. Apparently this was a common trick earlier this century, before AFR and others started coming out with their off the shelf units. :huh:

Anywho, the original owner ran a race fuel mix and agressive tune, safely got 432 in a C5. I run a conservative tune with Torco for safety and get 391 HP. On my tune, it will run ok on straight 91, but will ping under certain conditions.

Basically I want to know what I can do to go back for an aggressive tune without, or at least minimizing, having to raise the octane or do alcohol injection etc. Hence the question about the oil cooler. Carlos has given some suggestions. What you go old timer.:drink:

[BRUTAL64]

Well, I know what my HP/TQ numbers are in the real world. 391HP@6,000~ 360 something torqe@4,000~ to the wheels. You where there home skillet.

I've been digging through receipts and records and can't find much more detailed info. The head gasket came from the kit PN 12499218. The heads flow (on paper 305cfm). I believe the cam is a rebadged, (maybe modified?) Comp Cams G2 224/224 114. However, according to comp cams that's 580 lift and my receipt says 566. :huh: Technically the Cam is a Morgan Motorsports VS3 LS1 Cam indicated as 224/224 114LSA 566/566

The heads are Morgan Motorsports Stage 2x. They are based on 4.8L Truck heads. Apparently this was a common trick earlier this century, before AFR and others started coming out with their off the shelf units. :huh:

Anywho, the original owner ran a race fuel mix and agressive tune, safely got 432 in a C5. I run a conservative tune with Torco for safety and get 391 HP. On my tune, it will run ok on straight 91, but will ping under certain conditions.

Basically I want to know what I can do to go back for an aggressive tune without, or at least minimizing, having to raise the octane or do alcohol injection etc. Hence the question about the oil cooler. Carlos has given some suggestions. What you go old timer.:drink:



Old timer!!!!!?????. Fine I see how it is.

First thing that bothers me here, is that fact (with info you gave me) you do not have enough mechincal compression to ping with an all alum engine and the cam you have.

So why does it ping? Cylinder temps causes ping. So first we have to lower cylinder temp. I would start with lowering the overall engine temp.

I would run a water spray into the engine to clean all carbon deposts out.
Yes, you can do that with engine running. We'll talk about that Sat night.


Second is fuel air ratio. A lean condition will run the cylinder temps up.

Next is a lower (cooler) plug range. I'd drop two ranges down to start.


Since you have no EGR valve-----


I really want to know if the full advance (given) is correct. This is VERY suspect from what I've seen so far.


Lastly pull the heads and we'll clean and slightly reshape the chambers and smooth the piston tops. Yes, I said "we". I don't work on other people's motors anymore. But for you, I may just come out of retirement, to do the chamber shape correctly. Not pull the heads:laugh:

Finally quench--I've actually raised compression to close the quench to .045 to get the pinging to stop. This is VERY true. Quench is a VERY big deal.

I'm not saying your info is incorrect-but any minor error could lead us in the wrong direction.
It is important that the specs you gave me are correct. This is the key to any mods we do in the future. This is a disclaimer or sorts.:drink:

BTW:
Do you have any pictures of the chamber shape of your head?

[Vettezuki]

Old timer!!!!!?????. Fine I see how it is.

I meant that with the deepest of respect yo. :judge: I grew up around old people, namely my pa who is 80 now. Not only do they say the darndest things, they know stuff from being around that I don't. That's what I meant.


First thing that bothers me here, is that fact (with info you gave me) you do not have enough mechincal compression to ping with an all alum engine and the cam you have.

That's why I'm quite suspicious about the real specs on the heads. All I know is that they were 4.8L truck heads that were milled and majorly ported. I don't know the mill specs.

So why does it ping? Cylinder temps causes ping. So first we have to lower cylinder temp. I would start with lowering the overall engine temp.

I would run a water spray into the engine to clean all carbon deposts out.
Yes, you can do that with engine running. We'll talk about that Sat night.

I've run Sea Foam (nasty solvent) into the running engine right through the intake. I've done this on some cars like my brothers Tacoma, and holy mother of god the crap that came out the tail pipe for like 30 minutes was amazing, and it absolutely ran better after. On the Vette, almost nothing. Given the nature of water and heat and the nature of aluminum, water spray scares me a bit, I ain't gonna lie.


Second is fuel air ratio. A lean condition will run the cylinder temps up.

I'll look for my sheet from the last pull. It's on Vettemod I think. It's totally in line with Gen III idealized A/F curves . . . according to the pointy heads that saw it. Certainly leaner than the olden days of carburated iron blocks Imma guess'n.

Next is a lower (cooler) plug range. I'd drop two ranges down to start.

What's two ranges lower than Iridium?



I really want to know if the full advance (given) is correct. This is VERY suspect from what I've seen so far.

I'll see if I can call the tuner and have him pull up the program. I just remember that he was fairly surprised that's all he could put in. I want to say he expected to put in like 32 degrees???


Lastly pull the heads and we'll clean and slightly reshape the chambers and smooth the piston tops. Yes, I said "we". I don't work on other people's motors anymore. But for you, I may just come out of retirement, to do the chamber shape correctly. Not pull the heads:laugh:

This sounds great. I was planning to put headers on next year, maybe spring or so. If I'm going to pull the heads, I think I'd like to put the Sodium Filled valves I have in, change the rockers to some gucci ones and maybe even the lifters to those trick Caddy ones developed for their racing team. Poof, we're talking some scratch now. I'll pay you in all the beer and pizza you can handle . . . after working.

NOTE: The tuner offered to retune my Vette for free. To be honest, the place we used was having some screwy issues with its A/F equipment. It took all day and he said usually he can dial in an LSx in a couple hours and like 5 pulls. I did over 20. He said he got the best it could be at that time, but offered a free re-tune cuz he's a swell guy. When we dynoed at Dynamax, Richard said it had been well tuned so I don't suspect bad tuning, but something fundamental with the engine setup itself, namely higher than advertised compression . . . My point is that I wanted to do these other mods like headers, rockers and maybe lifters, before retuning. I'm also running Torco now, and that's ok. I wasn't running it during the original tune. I'd love to get to 450WHP on my N/A 346 so I can harass Sean and his pullied Cobra even more. :nutkick:

Finally quench--I've actually raised compression to close the quench to .045 to get the pinging to stop. This is VERY true. Quench is a VERY big deal.

Ruh-roh. Que es quench?


I'm not saying your info is incorrect-but any minor error could lead us in the wrong direction.
It is important that the specs you gave me are correct. This is the key to any mods we do in the future. This is a disclaimer or sorts.:drink:

Hell, I'm saying that it's at best incomplete.


Do you have any pictures of the chamber shape of your head?

I'll check but I don't think so. I remember they were gal durned big and rectangular. The assembler and installer of my swap (ls1z28) said they had gone absolutely as far as they could with the porting as I recall.

[BRUTAL64]

I meant that with the deepest of respect yo. :judge: I grew up around old people, namely my pa who is 80 now. Not only do they say the darndest things, they know stuff from being around that I don't. That's what I meant.




That's why I'm quite suspicious about the real specs on the heads. All I know is that they were 4.8L truck heads that were milled and majorly ported. I don't know the mill specs.



I've run Sea Foam (nasty solvent) into the running engine right through the intake. I've done this on some cars like my brothers Tacoma, and holy mother of god the crap that came out the tail pipe for like 30 minutes was amazing, and it absolutely ran better after. On the Vette, almost nothing. Given the nature of water and heat and the nature of aluminum, water spray scares me a bit, I ain't gonna lie.




I'll look for my sheet from the last pull. It's on Vettemod I think. It's totally in line with Gen III idealized A/F curves . . . according to the pointy heads that saw it. Certainly leaner than the olden days of carburated iron blocks Imma guess'n.



What's two ranges lower than Iridium?





I'll see if I can call the tuner and have him pull up the program. I just remember that he was fairly surprised that's all he could put in. I want to say he expected to put in like 32 degrees???




This sounds great. I was planning to put headers on next year, maybe spring or so. If I'm going to pull the heads, I think I'd like to put the Sodium Filled valves I have in, change the rockers to some gucci ones and maybe even the lifters to those trick Caddy ones developed for their racing team. Poof, we're talking some scratch now. I'll pay you in all the beer and pizza you can handle . . . after working.

NOTE: The tuner offered to retune my Vette for free. To be honest, the place we used was having some screwy issues with its A/F equipment. It took all day and he said usually he can dial in an LSx in a couple hours and like 5 pulls. I did over 20. He said he got the best it could be at that time, but offered a free re-tune cuz he's a swell guy. When we dynoed at Dynamax, Richard said it had been well tuned so I don't suspect bad tuning, but something fundamental with the engine setup itself, namely higher than advertised compression . . . My point is that I wanted to do these other mods like headers, rockers and maybe lifters, before retuning. I'm also running Torco now, and that's ok. I wasn't running it during the original tune. I'd love to get to 450WHP on my N/A 346 so I can harass Sean and his pullied Cobra even more. :nutkick:



Ruh-roh. Que es quench?




Hell, I'm saying that it's at best incomplete.




I'll check but I don't think so. I remember they were gal durned big and rectangular. The assembler and installer of my swap (ls1z28) said they had gone absolutely as far as they could with the porting as I recall.


Quench= is the distance between the top of the piston to flat portion of the head. If it is too wide you will get detonation. .045 is considered optimum, but I have .052 and I have NO issues.

I was hoping to get a picture of the CHAMBER not the ports.:sm_up_there::sm_laughing:



You are going to be there Sat nite? We could converse then.:judge:


If you ever compare me to old people again.................you get the picture.:rant::judge::drink::sm_laughing:

[Vettezuki]

Quench= is the distance between the top of the piston to flat portion of the head. If it is too wide you will get detonation. .045 is considered optimum, but I have .052 and I have NO issues.

I was hoping to get a pciture of the CHAMBER not the ports.:sm_up_there::sm_laughing:



You are going to be there Sat nite? We could converse then.:judge:


If you ever compare me to old people again.................you get the picture.:rant::judge::drink::sm_laughing:

See you tomorrow. I'm trying suck Jeff and some of the other local Vettemod/DC boys in.

[BRUTAL64]

See you tomorrow. I'm trying suck Jeff and some of the other local Vettemod/DC boys in.


Just tell them I'm going to be there. Then they won't come for sure.:smack:

[BRUTAL64]

Just tell them I'm going to be there. Then they won't come for sure.:smack:


Did you post it on VetteMOD?? If so I couldn't find it. I was going to let them know I was going. Like that would help.:smack:

[Vettezuki]

Did you post it on VetteMOD?? If so I couldn't find it. I was going to let them know I was going. Like that would help.:smack:

I did not post it on Vettemod or DC. Maybe I should. . .

[BRUTAL64]

I did not post it on Vettemod or DC. Maybe I should. . .


Yea, do that and then I'll tell em how good the runs are and that I go all the time. That way not one of them will show up.
:smack:


Yea, post it.:thumbs_up:

[big2bird]

I din't read the whole thread, but to answer the question, an oil cooler will only cool the oil. (Not a bad thing). Your combustion temp won't change a bit.

[Vettezuki]

I din't read the whole thread, but to answer the question, an oil cooler will only cool the oil. (Not a bad thing). Your combustion temp won't change a bit.

Yeah, as I imagine now, it would be nominal to nothing as you say. Originally I was thinking that with cooler oil running through the engine, the engine "environment" for lack of a better word would likewise be cooler, sapping some heat from combustion.

[TimAT]

See you tomorrow. I'm trying suck Jeff and some of the other local Vettemod/DC boys in.

I'm not what I'd call "local", but do I get to play too?:(

[big2bird]

Yeah, as I imagine now, it would be nominal to nothing as you say. Originally I was thinking that with cooler oil running through the engine, the engine "environment" for lack of a better word would likewise be cooler, sapping some heat from combustion.

Noble thought. 99% of combustion temps are at the top 25% of the cylinder. Next time your here, I'll show you a Model T engine. The bottom 75% of the cylinder has no water jacket.:nuts:

[Vettezuki]

Noble thought. 99% of combustion temps are at the top 25% of the cylinder. Next time your here, I'll show you a Model T engine. The bottom 75% of the cylinder has no water jacket.:nuts:

What was the compression on those engines? Wasn't it just sort of like pushing air together with your hands. :judge:

[big2bird]

What was the compression on those engines? Wasn't it just sort of like pushing air together with your hands. :judge:

3.5 to 1 stock. :rolling:

[Vettezuki]

I'm not what I'd call "local", but do I get to play too?:(

If you can make it to Fullerton CA, darn close to Jeff's house, hells ya you can play too! Or maybe we can somehow help to fire up some regional activity near you.

[Vettezuki]

3.5 to 1 stock. :rolling:

Seriously? That's awesome. Doesn't even like to run on 87??? Or do you have to mix DOWN the octane somehow?

[big2bird]

Seriously? That's awesome. Doesn't even like to run on 87??? Or do you have to mix DOWN the octane somehow?

Runs fine on the cheapest crap you can find. My engine is modified, so it runs closer to 5-1. During the FIRST depression, guys would warm them up on gasoline, then switch to kerosene to save $$.:sm_laughing:

[Vettezuki]

Runs fine on the cheapest crap you can find. My engine is modified, so it runs closer to 5-1. During the FIRST depression, guys would warm them up on gasoline, then switch to kerosene to save $$.:sm_laughing:

That's amazing. They'd burn kerosine at 3.5? I thought that would take diesel-like compression and air. BTW, does yours run?

[big2bird]

That's amazing. They'd burn kerosine at 3.5? I thought that would take diesel-like compression and air. BTW, does yours run?

Battery is dead. That's all. Just been busy doing everyone elses cars.:smack:

[Vettezuki]

Battery is dead. That's all. Just been busy doing everyone elses cars.:smack:

Bad habit, unless I need help of course. If you can roll on the street and the mood strikes, it be awesome to bring out to Nicks. We get a lot of Fords (Machs, GTs, Cobras, and Lightnings). I think it'd be darned interesting for some of these guys to see, probably for the first time, one of THE vehicles that made it all possible. Then again, don't you need like a pilot's license to drive one? I remember hearing about it on a documentary and a tumor began to form in my brain.

[big2bird]

Bad habit, unless I need help of course. If you can roll on the street and the mood strikes, it be awesome to bring out to Nicks. We get a lot of Fords (Machs, GTs, Cobras, and Lightnings). I think it'd be darned interesting for some of these guys to see, probably for the first time, one of THE vehicles that made it all possible. Then again, don't you need like a pilot's license to drive one? I remember hearing about it on a documentary and a tumor began to form in my brain.

Actually, after a 10 minute lesson, it's easy. I'll dig it out in the spring, and let you drive it.

[Vettezuki]

. . . I'll dig it out in the spring, and let you drive it.

What's a matter, our global warming winter not warm enough for you. :smack:

[BRUTAL64]

What's a matter, our global warming winter not warm enough for you. :smack:

I've seen his "T". Very very nice.:drink: