[Vettezuki]

No, Shelby Super Cars doesn't count. I think Panoz is about the closest to what I'm thinking. Ford with its GT would qualify for just that offering. The ZR1 is 100%+ supercar for performance, but doesn't have the same cache and that's just the way it is. It's not an exotic.

Europe has several established and current badges, not even counting really boutiquey or in-limbo companies of which the UK has several.

We're talking elite, exclusive, low volume, high cost kind of stuff.

Ferrari (Italy)
Lamborghini (Italy originally)
Bugatti (Italy originally)
Porsche (Germany)
Audi (Germany)
Koenigsegg (Sweden!)
Spyker (Holland!)
Aston Martin (England)
Lotus (England)

We're plenty big for both land ad population. We have plenty of technical ability. We have plenty of money. In fact, we're the No. 1 market for several of these badges. So what gives?

I have my theories. What are yours?

[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

No, Shelby Super Cars doesn't count. I think Panoz is about the closest to what I'm thinking. Ford with its GT would qualify for just that offering. The ZR1 is 100%+ supercar for performance, but doesn't have the same cache and that's just the way it is. It's not an exotic.

Europe has several established and current badges, not even counting really boutiquey or in-limbo companies of which the UK has several.

We're talking elite, exclusive, low volume, high cost kind of stuff.

Ferrari (Italy)
Lamborghini (Italy originally)
Bugatti (Italy originally)
Porsche (Germany)
Audi (Germany)
Koenigsegg (Sweden!)
Spyker (Holland!)
Aston Martin (England)
Lotus (England)

We're plenty big for both land ad population. We have plenty of technical ability. We have plenty of money. In fact, we're the No. 1 market for several of these badges. So what gives?

I have my theories. What are yours?

I think it's a perception thing. The same way that people perceive imports to be of much higher quality than domestics is how rich people feel about exotics. Realistically speaking a ZR1 is the equal of just about any Ferrari - but it probably carries about 1/10th the cache. Quite frankly to most people it's just another Corvette. I think in a lot of instances the image is more important than the actual car to a lot of the buyers we're talking about.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by SeanPlunk

I think it's a perception thing. The same way that people perceive imports to be of much higher quality than domestics is how rich people feel about exotics. Realistically speaking a ZR1 is the equal of just about any Ferrari - but it probably carries about 1/10th the cache. Quite frankly to most people it's just another Corvette. I think in a lot of instances the image is more important than the actual car to a lot of the buyers we're talking about.

There are physical parameters associated with perception. In other words, there is some rational evaluation. Rich people aren't buying European marques, just because they're European. There are differences.

I'm a Corvette guy. (At least I was, but that's a different story.) It's equal to an Enzo in performance, it is not equal to an F430 for refinement, material quality or fit and finish when it comes to interior, design, or refinement of the aesthetic package. Consider just the see through hood to the plastic engine cover on the ZR1. Unthinkable for a Ferrari, where the engine is itself a work of art displayed in what is basically a glass case. The Corvette is still a middle class, albeit upper middle class car, the Ferrari is an upper class car.

My point is that it is certainly within the capability set of Americans to make cars up at that level. I don't want to tip my hand about why I think we don't until there are more opinions.

[Leedom]

I think that there are many people in this country who build cars just as good if not better than many you named, but we do it in a differnet manner that makes us not look at it like the exotics of europe. Look at Chip Foose, Carrol Shelby, Body Coddington, Jesse James, ect. They all build totally trick machines. I think that the American view of what is an exotic car is is different. Many like to customize the cars we have or take classic cars and totally fip them on there ear with current products. I think that people see the established European brands and think that it is not financially feasible to crack that market, but if they "customize" cars then they have a working, feasible businessplan. i also think that especially now, with the current governmental policies that many who would thik of this type of thing feel like they have one foot in teh grave and the other on a banana peel so to speak regarding starting a exotic car company now.

Looking at the off-road sector though I would say that not many companies outside the US really produce what we do. I am talking trophy trucks and the like. Name a eauropean company that can do that!

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by Leedom

I think that there are many people in this country who build cars just as good if not better than many you named, but we do it in a differnet manner that makes us not look at it like the exotics of europe. Look at Chip Foose, Carrol Shelby, Body Coddington, Jesse James, ect. They all build totally trick machines. I think that the American view of what is an exotic car is is different. Many like to customize the cars we have or take classic cars and totally fip them on there ear with current products. I think that people see the established European brands and think that it is not financially feasible to crack that market, but if they "customize" cars then they have a working, feasible businessplan. i also think that especially now, with the current governmental policies that many who would thik of this type of thing feel like they have one foot in teh grave and the other on a banana peel so to speak regarding starting a exotic car company now.

Looking at the off-road sector though I would say that not many companies outside the US really produce what we do. I am talking trophy trucks and the like. Name a eauropean company that can do that!

But we are the world's single largest consumer of exotics, tons of them right here in Southern California. You might be hitting on something with the economics, all of these companies, except Ferrari and even them from time to time, have been total basket cases or just don't make any money. But still, we have some of the richest people in the world, not one of them decided on being a patron of an American exotic marque.

As for the trophy trucks, the Europeans could build them just fine, they just don't have any Baja racing in their back yard. Remember, it's the home of F1, Class B rally cars from the 80s and on and on. They can build anything we can and vice versa. So I'm still curious why there isn't one viable American exotic marque, or at least a trail of failed attempts, of which I am not aware.

[Vettezuki]

BTW, while there are boutique guys like Foose, Coddington, etc. they are all working from a base. They are more like coach builders than manufacturers. The marques above have some of the most advanced production technology and fundamental engineering in the world. Consider Ferrari's E-Diff, or Porsche's variable vein technology on the turbos in its Turbo Porsche. There's a long list here of heavy stuff.

[BADDASSC6]

Spyker is not a true supercar. it's performance is less than a C5. Ued to have c6 power, now has a limp wristed audi motor.

Lotus is toyota powered and is only competative at autocrossing. It's a 14 sec car. Which means that a Musang GT would be a supercar. If this counts then EVO, STi's, SRT 4s, and JCW minis are supercars also.

Austin Martin are the most beutiful cars is the world (IMO), but they are shit slow. They have two new models that make good power, but still slow. Some how they managed not to transfer any of their racing knowledge to their production vehicles.

K-egg is a super lightwieght chassis, but thier drive trian is based on a ford v8. Which is OK, but what's really different from an S7???

Audi and Lambo: Same thing, but the Audi is slow. Looks cool, but don't bring your lady to the track or you're going to have explain why the ricer witht he k series powered EG walked you're ass on the big end.

Porsche makes SUVs and family cars. Thier current top offering GT2 is outperformed in every aspect by a car from GM.

Ferrari is definately a Supercar manufacturer. Great machines.

Bugatti- made 250 copies of one car based on a Vw powertrain. VW by the way still owns a huge chunk of Porsche.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by BADDASSC6

Spyker is not a true supercar. it's performance is less than a C5. Ued to have c6 power, now has a limp wristed audi motor.

Lotus is toyota powered and is only competative at autocrossing. It's a 14 sec car. Which means that a Musang GT would be a supercar. If this counts then EVO, STi's, SRT 4s, and JCW minis are supercars also.

Austin Martin are the most beutiful cars is the world (IMO), but they are shit slow. They have two new models that make good power, but still slow. Some how they managed not to transfer any of their racing knowledge to their production vehicles.

K-egg is a super lightwieght chassis, but thier drive trian is based on a ford v8. Which is OK, but what's really different from an S7???

Audi and Lambo: Same thing, but the Audi is slow. Looks cool, but don't bring your lady to the track or you're going to have explain why the ricer witht he k series powered EG walked you're ass on the big end.

Porsche makes SUVs and family cars. Thier current top offering GT2 is outperformed in every aspect by a car from GM.

Ferrari is definately a Supercar manufacturer. Great machines.

Bugatti- made 250 copies of one car based on a Vw powertrain. VW by the way still owns a huge chunk of Porsche.

The only criteria you've pointed out is objective performance. . . .Getting at the root of why we don't produce cars of this type as a society, but buy them at the upper levels.

Some other points:

The Lotus is somewhat borderline since it's kind of a grown up go-kart. It is accessible by the devoted middle class. Of course Lotus has done substantial engineering for both GM (Corvette) and Ford (GT).

Also, I'd say the Porsche 911 franchise is basically Europe's Corvette, accessible by the upper middle class at least to a point.

ASTON Martin (you're mixing with the old Austin Healey), is not a supercar (though the limited production One Seven Seven sure as fu*k is). Aston Martins are the world's greatest production GTs IMO. An AM dd and an Ariel Atom for the track is about the best pair of cars I can think of for absolute vehicular bliss. Seems the Brits know something for a little island nation.

Koenigsegg started with a Ford driveline (engine base only), but is completely their own now. Including twin Rotrex (European) centrifugal superchargers. It is my personal favorite hypercar for its quirkiness and unique design. It also holds the world's record highest speeding ticket at 242mph in Texas.


Lambo has one of the great exotic histories. A tractor manufacturer didn't like how he was treated by Ferrari, starts his own car company, and in short order comes up with the Miura . . . the very foundation of what we think of as a supercar. Ferrari followed their lead on this layout.

Bugatti has one of the original great racing and marque histories. Right in there with Ferrari.

The Ford GT, probably about the closest we've come to a production exotic, is loaded with European technology beyond the the engine.

I forgot Pagani, a successful "upstart". I'm not even including TVR, Morgan, Marcos, or the numerous high-end factory tuning houses.

To be extreme, you can suck down an MRE which gets the job of taking on calories done quite efficiently, or you can go out for fine dining. There's a difference in the experience . . . .

[eric97srad]

Personally I think it has to do with the cliche of "the American Dream"

Everybody is off to make a buck as quick as they can doing as little work as possible... With that I think people tend to take a lot of shortcuts and the auto industry in the States shows that. I'm not saying that there isn't any quality in the vehicles - I love American vehicles regardless - there just isn't the Craftsmanship in production vehicles that guys like Foose, Shelby, Jesse James put into their projects.

You can tell the difference between our limited production vehicles and mass production vehicles in craftsmanship and performance (ZR1, Ford GT etc...)

Another thing that I think holds people back from trying to create something like this is the history of American automakers that tried to compete with the big 3... Check out this article - I'm sure you all know a lot more about this than I do - but Tucker for instance was a visionary but he was stomped out by the big 3...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...0/ai_65352730/

As far as BADASSC6's argument on this - I have to agree to an extent that many of those automakers that we deem as supercar manufacturers don't hold the same reputation throughout the world... Porsche in particular has a very wide range of vehicles so they could easily be regarded as Germany's GM...

[BRUTAL64]

Originally Posted by Leedom

I think that there are many people in this country who build cars just as good if not better than many you named, but we do it in a differnet manner that makes us not look at it like the exotics of europe. Look at Chip Foose, Carrol Shelby, Body Coddington, Jesse James, ect. They all build totally trick machines. I think that the American view of what is an exotic car is is different. Many like to customize the cars we have or take classic cars and totally fip them on there ear with current products. I think that people see the established European brands and think that it is not financially feasible to crack that market, but if they "customize" cars then they have a working, feasible businessplan. i also think that especially now, with the current governmental policies that many who would thik of this type of thing feel like they have one foot in teh grave and the other on a banana peel so to speak regarding starting a exotic car company now.

Looking at the off-road sector though I would say that not many companies outside the US really produce what we do. I am talking trophy trucks and the like. Name a eauropean company that can do that!

Chip Foose- Coddington- Jesse James-