[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by 94cobra69ss396

The heads on this engine would lift with that much boost. Also, the 12psi is with the smaller pulley. Ben, also know that you are going to go through a lot more E85 then you will with race fuel because it needs a much richer mixture. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76 as opposed to 14.7 for gas.

I got this from www.e85mustangs.com

"For a late model modular Ford engine, we can tell you that it requires about 20% more fuel at part throttle, and about 40% more fuel at wide open throttle (WOT) so ensure you have adequate fuel flow to the cylinder before you begin. This is where the experience of a professional tuner becomes important to understand just how much fuel to add and when, to make the perfect fuel curve."

This I didn't know. I thought it was on the order of 15-20% across the curve. Adam has an LM2, and CornFed has quite a bit of experience melting engines, I mean tuning them for E85 now. But if it's on the order of 40% more fuel at WOT (where we'll be spending a lot of time ), the cost savings by volume at purchase is considerably lower. I also, literally have a 76 with 100oct out of the pump less than a mile from my house.

[94cobra69ss396]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

This I didn't know. I thought it was on the order of 15-20% across the curve. Adam has an LM2, and CornFed has quite a bit of experience melting engines, I mean tuning them for E85 now. But if it's on the order of 40% more fuel at WOT (where we'll be spending a lot of time ), the cost savings by volume at purchase is considerably lower. I also, literally have a 76 with 100oct out of the pump less than a mile from my house.

No need to get 76 100oct at $8 a gallon. There is a place named Downs Oil Company off the 15 near the 91 in Corona that sells VP110 from the pump for around $6 - $7 a gallon. Just run it 50/50 with pump and we'll be good. This is what I do in the Chevelle so the gas ends up at around $4.50 a gallon or so.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

Originally Posted by SeanPlunk

I don't think that particular blower is good for much more than 12psi. That is my understanding anyway

well everyone thought that 22psi or 350-380hp out of the stock evo turbo is just blowing hot air and out of its efficiency range....but e85 proved that wronge and pissed all over that!! on 91 people are runing 27psi and making 370hp and on e85 stock turbo evo's have gone up to 450hp at 30-34psi so efficiency range is up to your set up....and how much ball$$ you got lol.

and for mister cobra he is extremely right about e85 and how much more fuel u need to add.

when i talked to some older folk who grew up in the muscle car glory days threw the gas crisis...one of them suprisingly being a san berdoo sheriff...told me they would manually drill/open or agment there fuel jets on there carbs to accomadate for e85 usage when gas was on the fritz. and alot of the hardcore guys *his words* survived by jus beefing up there fuel system...essentually making everything bigger got crappy gas milage but put a fat ol small on there face when there foot opened the throttle.

so it is possible to run e85 nicely on this set up...if them oldie timers could do it back then...it should be too much of a hastle to do it now...

as for the 9.xx afr on idle and cruise you dont have to take that totally to heart.....

every cars afr at idle and cruise now in stock form from evo's to cobras to bugatti's is gonna be 14.7.....but thats only because 14.7 afr is the perfect afr for the least or best emissions at idle and cruise.

for most performance 12.5 is best and to save gas its pretty much 16.2-15.7 mainly whatever you car can take. i found out the hardway this too applyed to e85 :-( !! so when people say the best afr for e85 is 9.XX you pretty much saying that 9.xx is the best emissions for afr on e85.

and believe me i know just about every converted e85 car out there is running a 14.7 afr because the cars stock computer wants that number and people are daily driving that and getting a light multi cylinder misfire hell im getting it and it doesnt effect driving....but for e85 if you wanna cruise around safely and have 100% peace of mind id shoot for a 12.X afr but holy hell your gas milege will suck bawls!.... just some food for thought.

may people have many angles they like to tackle e85 from. as far as whats best only time will tell

[Leedom]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

I want to fix the 174, pure and simple. The engine we have has forged pistons and a balanced stock assembly as I understand, not fully forged. It's a 302 with relatively low compression: 9.x:1.

If we can't fix the 174 there are two paths to get into vaguely the same performance level:
- Other FI solution
- Some kind of NA solution

A well thought out FI kit for the 302 and a stroker kit with big cam are going to run very similar price range all said and done, in other words, similar prices for similar results.

Can't we adapt a Eaton blower off a 03-04 Cobra to fit? Sean and I have seen them for as low as $450 on ebay.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by Leedom

Can't we adapt a Eaton blower off a 03-04 Cobra to fit? Sean and I have seen them for as low as $450 on ebay.

Those are set up for fuel injection. We need a blower for a carb setup.

FMI, what model, how much displacement do those blowers have?

[BRUTAL64]

[94cobra69ss396]

Originally Posted by st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*

well everyone thought that 22psi or 350-380hp out of the stock evo turbo is just blowing hot air and out of its efficiency range....but e85 proved that wronge and pissed all over that!! on 91 people are runing 27psi and making 370hp and on e85 stock turbo evo's have gone up to 450hp at 30-34psi so efficiency range is up to your set up....and how much ball$$ you got lol.

and for mister cobra he is extremely right about e85 and how much more fuel u need to add.

when i talked to some older folk who grew up in the muscle car glory days threw the gas crisis...one of them suprisingly being a san berdoo sheriff...told me they would manually drill/open or agment there fuel jets on there carbs to accomadate for e85 usage when gas was on the fritz. and alot of the hardcore guys *his words* survived by jus beefing up there fuel system...essentually making everything bigger got crappy gas milage but put a fat ol small on there face when there foot opened the throttle.

so it is possible to run e85 nicely on this set up...if them oldie timers could do it back then...it should be too much of a hastle to do it now...

as for the 9.xx afr on idle and cruise you dont have to take that totally to heart.....

every cars afr at idle and cruise now in stock form from evo's to cobras to bugatti's is gonna be 14.7.....but thats only because 14.7 afr is the perfect afr for the least or best emissions at idle and cruise.

for most performance 12.5 is best and to save gas its pretty much 16.2-15.7 mainly whatever you car can take. i found out the hardway this too applyed to e85 :-( !! so when people say the best afr for e85 is 9.XX you pretty much saying that 9.xx is the best emissions for afr on e85.

and believe me i know just about every converted e85 car out there is running a 14.7 afr because the cars stock computer wants that number and people are daily driving that and getting a light multi cylinder misfire hell im getting it and it doesnt effect driving....but for e85 if you wanna cruise around safely and have 100% peace of mind id shoot for a 12.X afr but holy hell your gas milege will suck bawls!.... just some food for thought.

may people have many angles they like to tackle e85 from. as far as whats best only time will tell

Steve, there is no need to drill out the jets. We would just install bigger ones. However, you are the only one on this site that I know of who has tuned for E85 but your tuning was done with a CPU. How much experience do you have tuning a Holley carb? Do you know how many jet sizes we should go up for the E85? How about the discharge nozzle size? Should we up it to add more fuel on tip in or will the stock size work because of the larger jets? If we run race gas there are a lot of us who can easily make these adjustments from experience.

This was also taken from www.E85Mustangs.com

"Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.

However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.

All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.

If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline."

If what they say is correct it would mean that when you tune your AFR to 12.5 at WOT according to your AFR gauge your stoich on E85 is actually around 8.25. And your cruise AFR of 16.2-15.7 is 10.7-10.3.

[Vettezuki]

QuickFuel makes E85 conversion kits for 4150 style carbs. It seems the main thing are different metering blocks, and ???. I know very little about carbs.

Make your carburetor go green!
Bring your carburetor into the new generation by going green. These Quick Fuel E85 billet metering block conversion kits feature standard calibration, screw-in idle feed restrictors, no secondary power valve provision, and a 4-mixture idle screw setup. The metering blocks are CNC-machined from billet aluminum and green anodized for protection. Specifically designed for use with E85 fuels, these Quick Fuel E85 billet metering block conversion kits will give your carburetor the adjustability you've been looking for, all while protecting the environment and going green.

[94cobra69ss396]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

QuickFuel makes E85 conversion kits for 4150 style carbs. It seems the main thing are different metering blocks, and ???. I know very little about carbs.

These are add on metering plates, they don't replace your current ones. My dad has these on his carb only they're made by someone else, not sure who. What you do is remove the jets from your current metering plates and bolt these on. That's why they come with longer bolts. On the top of these new metering blocks are a couple of screws that allow your to change the jet size by turning them just like you do with the idle mixture screws. This keeps you from having to pull the float bowls off to change jets.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

Originally Posted by 94cobra69ss396

Steve, there is no need to drill out the jets. We would just install bigger ones. However, you are the only one on this site that I know of who has tuned for E85 but your tuning was done with a CPU. How much experience do you have tuning a Holley carb? Do you know how many jet sizes we should go up for the E85? How about the discharge nozzle size? Should we up it to add more fuel on tip in or will the stock size work because of the larger jets? If we run race gas there are a lot of us who can easily make these adjustments from experience.

This was also taken from www.E85Mustangs.com

"Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.

However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.

All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.

If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline."

If what they say is correct it would mean that when you tune your AFR to 12.5 at WOT according to your AFR gauge your stoich on E85 is actually around 8.25. And your cruise AFR of 16.2-15.7 is 10.7-10.3.

hmmm well transfering over cpu/fuel injection theory to carb theory should be the same.

i admit i dont know crap about carbs except that they have jets...look crazy when you tear them apart....and have a throttle plate...but they thoery of e85 should hold true to any type of fuel delivery u throw it at.

basicly at your engines peak fuel consumption at WOT from peak tq to redline you want to throw in 25-35% more e85 then whatever your using now. so your gonna want to compensate for that range by giving yourself a fuel delivery system that can pump out 25-35% more then your current set up would need with average race gas.


here is my real world example

on my current set up i would easily be maxing out a 700cc - 800cc *66.5lb-76lb* injector on race gas

well if i add 35% more feeding capability to those injectors they turn into
945cc - 1080cc or **90lb-102lb** injectors which comes into range with what im using now which are 1200cc or 114lb injectors i went slightly bigger just to give myself a tad bit of head room.

so whatever size jets you use on a sbc application in whatever the hp range you guys are shooting for on this project....add 35% to that size.....im unfamiliar with jet sizes so its up to you guys to come up with that answer.

i hope this helped a little in figuring out a jet size

also dont forget about beefing up the fuel pump and im not sure how fuel pumps worked back then but i know in my experience to feed a 4 banger is already on the edge of maxing out a beefy fuel delivery system....so too feed 8 cylinders on a carb you would probably want to up the fuel pressure along with a beefy pumping system