[Vettezuki]

Listen commies (term of indearment) it ain't that hard. I don't remember what the running pubic opinion was during the Patriot Act "debate", but I don't recall it being anywhere near as openly defiant as with the TSA. Also, an aweful lot of the Republicans in now are different folks. Time does change, but it's not all because of party politics. A lot of the public is frankly weary of things grinding on and are just getting cranky. FWIW, there was relatively little opposition to th PA from Democrats, though granted virtually nill except for RP and a couple others from the Republicans.

Now, how about all those anti-war protests that seem to have gone virtually silent when Obama was elected.

[Ultraperio]

I remember it as:

1. If you weren't in full support of the invasion of Iraq you were a terrorist lover that wanted them to have WMD's
2. If you weren't in full support of the Patriot Act you were a terrorist lover and obviously had something to hide from the government. Innocent law abiding Americans had no need for things like civil liberties and the right to privacy apparently.

I don't think its entirely party politics, but clearly high profile republicans that have been around are jumping from the "stop terrorists, security trumps everything" GWB boat to the "civil liberties are the only thing worth fighting for, the government is too big and overbearing" libertarian boat because of the change in popular opinion. The republican party is transforming before our eyes, and its not just because new people are taking seats.

The change in popular opinion seems to stem from people actually paying attention and lack of trust in the government. At the beginning of the decade it was all about unifying the country against a common enemy and trusting the government as they'll see us safely through, lolly pops and gum drops we'll kill the evil terrorists in the place where all the brown people are and live happily ever after. Now after 7 years of war that arguably hasn't made us any safer, torture scandals, prison scandals, record debt and deficit, bailouts of major banks, etc. etc. etc. all on the taxpayers bill. People trust the government a lot less now. Partly due to unrealistic expectations of the government on the part of the public and partly due to just terrible terrible governing.

Besides, TSA agents taking nudie photos and rubbing your taint in an airport is a little more 'in your face' than an esoteric law bypassing your fourth amendment rights and allowing warrantless wiretapping if you are a 'terror suspect'. So its understandable more people are getting riled up.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by Ultraperio

I remember it as:

1. If you weren't in full support of the invasion of Iraq you were a terrorist lover that wanted them to have WMD's
2. If you weren't in full support of the Patriot Act you were a terrorist lover and obviously had something to hide from the government. Innocent law abiding Americans had no need for things like civil liberties and the right to privacy apparently.

I don't think its entirely party politics, but clearly high profile republicans that have been around are jumping from the "stop terrorists, security trumps everything" GWB boat to the "civil liberties are the only thing worth fighting for, the government is too big and overbearing" libertarian boat because of the change in popular opinion. The republican party is transforming before our eyes, and its not just because new people are taking seats.

The change in popular opinion seems to stem from people actually paying attention and lack of trust in the government. At the beginning of the decade it was all about unifying the country against a common enemy and trusting the government as they'll see us safely through, lolly pops and gum drops we'll kill the evil terrorists in the place where all the brown people are and live happily ever after. Now after 7 years of war that arguably hasn't made us any safer, torture scandals, prison scandals, record debt and deficit, bailouts of major banks, etc. etc. etc. all on the taxpayers bill. People trust the government a lot less now. Partly due to unrealistic expectations of the government on the part of the public and partly due to just terrible terrible governing.

Besides, TSA agents taking nudie photos and rubbing your taint in an airport is a little more 'in your face' than an esoteric law bypassing your fourth amendment rights and allowing warrantless wiretapping if you are a 'terror suspect'. So its understandable more people are getting riled up.

I concur with your analysis. Though I would suggest there is tension within the "GOP" from the more "conservative" side vs. the more "libertarian" side. This is really starting to come out in the Wikileaks case. The Neocons are calling for averything up to an including assassination and libertarians are say, well duh, of course he/they have the right to publish information and it's not a bad thing (a.k.a., good thing) to know what kind of your shenanigans your government is engaged in. Personally I'm looking forward to some of the bank stuff to be released. Notice that's when governments really started getting amped and coordinating? The live stock are to starting to figure out their relation to the farmers and it makes the latter nervous.

[enkeivette]

I wish I was a lawyer right now, I can think of a few clever con law actions to bring against TSA to get rid of these scanners. Not just the 4th. I would love a chance to make history like that.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

I wish I was a lawyer right now, I can think of a few clever con law actions to bring against TSA to get rid of these scanners. Not just the 4th. I would love a chance to make history like that.

[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

I concur with your analysis. Though I would suggest there is tension within the "GOP" from the more "conservative" side vs. the more "libertarian" side. This is really starting to come out in the Wikileaks case. The Neocons are calling for averything up to an including assassination and libertarians are say, well duh, of course he/they have the right to publish information and it's not a bad thing (a.k.a., good thing) to know what kind of your shenanigans your government is engaged in. Personally I'm looking forward to some of the bank stuff to be released. Notice that's when governments really started getting amped and coordinating? The live stock are to starting to figure out their relation to the farmers and it makes the latter nervous.

Wikileaks can't even keep their site running at this point. All the DDoS attacks are clearly working. I wonder if our government has anything to do with it

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by SeanPlunk

Wikileaks can't even keep their site running at this point. All the DDoS attacks are clearly working. I wonder if our government has anything to do with it

Glad to see my stolen tax money furthering my ignorance of what my stolen tax money is used for.

They knew days like this would come. About 10,000 people have loads of data encrypted. The attorneys have the decryption keys.

[jedhead]

He has the right to publish all the stuff on Wikileaks. The downside is that quite a few people has or will die because of the leaks because they said some thing in confidence that is now in the open and the source can be traced. We I saw highly classified information, most of the time the material was classified because of the source of the information, not necessarily the content of the information. If people die because of his actions, then I think he should be accountable for the death. In diplomacy sometimes things have to be done in secret because of possible political ramifications. I fault our government for allowing sensitive materials to be accessed so easily.

Bob

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by jedhead

He has the right to publish all the stuff on Wikileaks. The downside is that quite a few people has or will die because of the leaks because they said some thing in confidence that is now in the open and the source can be traced. We I saw highly classified information, most of the time the material was classified because of the source of the information, not necessarily the content of the information. If people die because of his actions, then I think he should be accountable for the death. In diplomacy sometimes things have to be done in secret because of possible political ramifications. I fault our government for allowing sensitive materials to be accessed so easily.

Bob

I can understand your POV and would have shared it verbatim not that long ago, but I see many things fundamentally diffferently now, primarily when it comes tot he nature of poolitics and diplomacy itself. Without getting into micro detail of law and ethics, I certainly still agree with the idea of not revealing sources and it's the responsibility of informatino holders to protect it if its so goddamned important.

[Shaolin Crane]

TSA, Putting "T" and "A" in TSA since 1998