[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Fair enough.

I'm more interested in why you don't think we live in a civilized society? I would argue that the current society we live in is probably the most civilized in human history.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by SeanPlunk

I'm more interested in why you don't think we live in a civilized society? I would argue that the current society we live in is probably the most civilized in human history.

Let me think about how to make it concise and I'll start a different post. The very bottom line would be the more a society is free AND absent violence in all human relations, the more civilized it is and vice versa. In this regard, there are areas where we are more civilized than anytime past, some where we are not as civilized as times past, but in all cases, a long way from the plausible ideal (nevermind utopian ideal, which is not possible).

[Small White Car]

Civilized?

Advanced yeah, sure. Civilized, I'm really not so sure we're even close to some other societies that have gone before, before they were wiped out by the less civilized of course.

It aint no different today.

[enkeivette]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Let me think about how to make it concise and I'll start a different post. The very bottom line would be the more a society is free AND absent violence in all human relations, the more civilized it is and vice versa. In this regard, there are areas where we are more civilized than anytime past, some where we are not as civilized as times past, but in all cases, a long way from the plausible ideal (nevermind utopian ideal, which is not possible).

I'll cast my vote for Sean on this one. :P

This is just semantics. I remember in Jr.High my computer lab teacher wanted us to do a report on some piece of "technology." I chose airplanes.

She said "no, airplanes have been around for too long, that's not technology."
Um...

Not saying you're dumb by any means (obviously she was a tard) just that you're pushing the definition to get your point across.



...You guys fight so much it makes me wonder sometimes if there's a lil somethin somethin goin on between you two. (Insert vin diesel retaliation joke here)->

[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by Small White Car

Civilized?

Advanced yeah, sure. Civilized, I'm really not so sure we're even close to some other societies that have gone before, before they were wiped out by the less civilized of course.

It aint no different today.

Such as?

[enkeivette]

Originally Posted by SeanPlunk

Such as?

I'd take a GPS over a sun dial any day.

[Vettezuki]

Well the Mongols and Vikings did a rather tremendous amount of ass kicking on some relatively advanced and arguably more civilized societies. Hell Genghis Kahn killed so many people (by hand) in Chinese cities that entire previously populated regions turned back into forests.

[enkeivette]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Well the Mongols and Vikings did a rather tremendous amount of ass kicking on some relatively advanced and arguably more civilized societies. Hell Genghis Kahn killed so many people (by hand) in Chinese cities that entire previously populated regions turned back into forests.

I think you're so into government and you hate ours so much, that your not giving jets, hospitals, banks, and tv dinners enough weight into how 'civilized' we are.

Or does it really come down to just violence for you? Numbers killed v. population, lowest ratio wins? ...Then I think France would prob win.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

I think you're so into government and you hate ours so much, that your not giving jets, hospitals, banks, and tv dinners enough weight into how 'civilized' we are.

I hate what a state is. Government in principle is fine. Within firms, clubs, etc., there is governance. The ideal of the American government was fantastic, the peak in human history IMO. What it has become is pretty sad for anyone who admires the original ideal.

Our standard of living as function of technology is something driven by markets; which I love. We've never had a perfectly free market but certainly among the most free, especially in times past, not for a while now. So what you admire in "civilization" as the technology component, an I do too, need not follow from and aggressive and violent state, or IMO, any state at all.

Or does it really come down to just violence for you? Numbers killed v. population, lowest ratio wins? ...Then I think France would prob win.

Lack of violence scores very high on the "how civilized are you" scale for me. So yes, there's absolutely room for distinguishing between technologically advanced and civilized.

Heading into WWII, the Third Reich arguably hit the all time high score of possibly the most technologically advanced and least civil people in the word. . maybe ever.

I'm not arguing there aren't other definitions, like refinement in taste and culture being another, or technological advancement, particularly when referring to "civilization", but I'm more intensely focused on:

<< Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable:

Now, while we may disagree on exactly what humane, ethical, and reasonable are; less than more violence is something fairly universal.

[enkeivette]

Considering our prison systems, do you really believe we are more violent than the mongols?

Maybe there are more gang wars and hooker/ drug murders today, but thats a relatively small percentage of the population. And our gov takes those people off the streets when they catch them.

Im sure in mongol times, you had to give up your lunch money when the bully came at you with a spear. There was no man in blue to save you.