[enkeivette]

Cont. So basically, the reason we identify with a certain sex is visual, sexual, and cultural. So we should exclude sexuality, since not all gays are transgender.

So we're left with cultural and visual. Visual, well no, transgender people arent born looking like the opposite sex, so that cant be the cause of their feelings. So cultural? Thats whats left. Can a desire to wear dresses and drink pina coladas really be strong enough to make a guy want to cut his dick off and grow boobs? No.

Its a combination of factors that makes us feel masculine or feminine. But most of those factors arent strong enough to cause a need for a total flip flop. Look at Richard Simmons versus Clint Eastwood. Simmons is about as feminine on the male scale as it gets, but he doesnt want to be a girl. So feminine cultural preferences and sexuality arent enough to cause the want to be different. Simmons mainly feels like a man because he LOOKS like a man.

So since transgender people dont identify with what they see in the mirror, what is the cause of their feeling this way? Its beyond visual, beyond cultural, beyond sexual, whats left?! IMHO - Psychological trauma.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

Ok here we go. No. Im saying there is no such separate thing as sex identity, there is only sexual orientation (which is not sex identity), cultural customs, and self-image. Phones dying, post more in a sec!

There is your sex (male vs. female).
There is sexual orientation (which sex(es) you like to have sex with)
There is gender, which is a psychological/cultural phenomena, but related to sex.

There is no "sex identity" since you're either male or female (leaving out hermaphrodites, etc.)

There IS gender identity, which crosses between what you are and what you think you are. That's the issue. When they don't match, you have a problem.

The harder question is why do people think they're something they're not (in a physiological sense)? Well that probably has both physiological foundations itself (brain function) and metaphysical/cognitive issues interacting.

My simple answer is that so long as people are not harming others, which I define pretty narrowly, I would not act against them, but accept them as they present themselves. This is key. My only "warning" is to explore that it's not a cover for something else. You can't step back from sexual alteration, especially male -> female, and it would be tradgedy if it was really something else that was eating at you. For this reason, I think it's generally good/safe advice to avoid sex chang operations until full adulthood, which is mid twenties or later.

These are my opinions and arguments, based on my imperfect information.

[Shaolin Crane]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

If you want to say a transgender person's naturally occurring neurobiology affects their self-image and is incongruous with their sex identity (morphology: male vs. female) and describe that as "fucked in the head", then there's not so much to argue about other than your not so sensitive choice of words. Bottom line, they can lead perfectly happy and fulfilling lives by aligning their gender self-identity and sexual morphology. Changing morphology is trivial compared to changing the underlying neuro-biology (which is not all that well understood, and may simply be impossible). But by refusing to align them they create a situation of misery for themselves.

I don't think anyone has accused me of being sensitive with my choice of words.

[enkeivette]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

The harder question is why do people think they're something they're not (in a physiological sense)? Well that probably has both physiological foundations itself (brain function) and metaphysical/cognitive issues interacting.

I agree with your break down of it. This paragraph above is what Im trying to get at mainly. What are those physiological causes? And if gender identity is a thing, what cant I pinpoint it myself? Can you?

Two interesting things I learned tonight that made me question my position:

First, my lesbian friend indicated in this conversation that her gf kinda sorta wishes she was a guy. A lesbian that Ive been hanging out with for years (Im friends with her too) is... I guess verging on transgender. This makes me wonder how many gays out there feel this way, and maybe cultural choices and sexual preferences have more to do with gender identity than I realize.

Second, she pointed out that without having felt "it" myself, its difficult for me to single out what a gender identity feeling is in the first place. It may be sub conscious and taken for granted.

[Shaolin Crane]

One more week of school. Then I get to work on the cars, feels like forever since I've done so.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

I agree with your break down of it. This paragraph above is what Im trying to get at mainly. What are those physiological causes? And if gender identity is a thing, what cant I pinpoint it myself? Can you?

Two interesting things I learned tonight that made me question my position:

First, my lesbian friend indicated in this conversation that her gf kinda sorta wishes she was a guy. A lesbian that Ive been hanging out with for years (Im friends with her too) is... I guess verging on transgender. This makes me wonder how many gays out there feel this way, and maybe cultural choices and sexual preferences have more to do with gender identity than I realize.

Second, she pointed out that without having felt "it" myself, its difficult for me to single out what a gender identity feeling is in the first place. It may be sub conscious and taken for granted.

This shit is WAY the fuck complicated. This and other issues is why I think it's a good idea to default to "do as though wilt, harm no one." I just don't know. So what's best? People living happy fulfilling lives, free from self-induced suffering seems like an inherent good.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by Shaolin Crane

One more week of school. Then I get to work on the cars, feels like forever since I've done so.

Finally.

[BRUTAL64]

[Shaolin Crane]

So yeah, it's happening

[blackax]

Originally Posted by Shaolin Crane

So yeah, it's happening

What is she going in?

Also 6L?