[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Ok now we're getting somewhere.

5 speed vs. 6 speed

You're saying 6 speed is the much tougher one. I'm assuming you mean 6 speed manual.

- This is a Subie trans right?
- From when was it stock (i.e., when did it replace the 5 speed).
- What are PPG gears? Are they stock or aftermarket gears that go into the Subie trans?

I'm pretty sure my colleagues trans that he broke a couple times was a 5 speed, but I'm not sure. It was a few years ago.

The STi has always had a 6-speed manual. As far as I know it has always been a robust unit with a good reputation. The normal WRX transmissions however (5-speed manuals) have a reputation for being fairly weak above stock power levels. I believe the 2002-2004 WRX 5-speeds were the worst and the newer ones are slightly better.

[BADDASSC6]

Originally Posted by WagonSleeps

hahah are you serious??? its all in the tune, we do not have only 300whp and 500Tq because of mechanical reasons on the RALLY cars, RALLY cars are tuned accordingly using certain mechanics and mods that arent on roadrace cars, add/pull timing, etc etc. your intake restrictor makes no sense if your talking about subarus in general. Rally cars maybe. NOW, if you read the other posts, our subarus have restrictive HEADS which hurts our cars, YES. my intake to turbo inlet to turbo is as free flowing as it gets with a intake. ALSO our cars have MAF sensor on our intake to read the air flow. Our cars can take in air as much as we want, its called tuner/tuning.............AFR?? more fuel, less air. less air, more fuel. etc etc...

not to burst your bubble, your statement above is totally incorrect, what is the point in having a "rally" car having 500whp in a back canyon dirt road where you cant even open up all that hp?????? As a rally cars tq is needed to pull out of those sharp turns and whatnot, you do not speak of the truth. Intake Restriction???? explain alittle more cause im totally confused. Intake to Turbo Inlet to Turbo.



JDM STI TRANNY OR USDM STI TRANNY OR NOT.

Being bullet proof or being fast off the line is not an opinion, its a fact my friend

Obviously you have no knowledge in the history of STI 6 speeds. and what it can and cant do.

Thats why so many people on NASIOC, IWSTI, CLUBWRX forums consider PPG gears and STi 6 speed transmissions to be upgrades for people who run 400tq or more . Thats why they have fully prepped Roadrace cars with STOCK 6 speeds...

if you had experiences where the 6 speed has failed, the DRIVER DEFINITELY FAILED, not the tranny.

Dude, I am serious. They really do run intake restrictors on ralley cars, look it up. Pulling boost timing doesn't work because it is impossible to enforce. When the race starts a different tune is less than a push of a button away.

There is no lesson to be taught here or any bubble to be burst. Older rally car had way more power, but there was a death toll associated with that power. Just like NASCAR, in the name of safety they added the restrictors. (might change now that the turbos are going away).

Yes you might have deleted the tumblers in the intake stream, but that diesn't change the fact that you have super long intake runners and a baby dick turbo. If the heads suck too then thats just one more reason as to why your car is shit. MAF are great! my truck has one, my vette has one, my old mustang had one, they have their limits as to what they can compensate for. That little heated element will peg high.

AFR can be changed, but if you knew as much about tuning as you speak you would realize that it is not something used to limit power. Stray too far from ideal and things pop.

Finally, I tried (a little bit) to not be a dick in my previous post. With that said your car is slow and you failed epicly at realizing that Vettezuki was trying to let you know that you were actually wrong and that they have restrictors.

If you need a lesson taught that can be done. I will be happy to comply just let me know if I need to dust off my old fluild flow analysis text books or mount the DRs on the vette. I'm sure you are not ready to deal with either of them.

[Vettezuki]

Jeez tough crowd.

WagonSleeps

I know we sound like dicks, and maybe we are a little bit, but more than anything we care about technical accuracy.

All I was really trying to do is to point out that while your ride is fairly stout, it seems there's quite a bit left on the table and it all comes down to the engine as an air pump; it's simply choking up somewhere. And in your specific case it seems to be a combination of of turbo size and head flow, hence the reason the torque falls off and the HP flattens out. Keep the torque up with better breathing and the HP is gonna climb considerably. Think your car pulls now, it'll be a different world if you address this.

In principle the FIA mandates restrictors to force the technical "problem" that you are having.

See here for a concise overview:
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/turbo_restrictors.html

[WagonSleeps]

Originally Posted by BADDASSC6

Dude, I am serious. They really do run intake restrictors on ralley cars, look it up. Pulling boost timing doesn't work because it is impossible to enforce. When the race starts a different tune is less than a push of a button away.

There is no lesson to be taught here or any bubble to be burst. Older rally car had way more power, but there was a death toll associated with that power. Just like NASCAR, in the name of safety they added the restrictors. (might change now that the turbos are going away).

Yes you might have deleted the tumblers in the intake stream, but that diesn't change the fact that you have super long intake runners and a baby dick turbo. If the heads suck too then thats just one more reason as to why your car is shit. MAF are great! my truck has one, my vette has one, my old mustang had one, they have their limits as to what they can compensate for. That little heated element will peg high.

AFR can be changed, but if you knew as much about tuning as you speak you would realize that it is not something used to limit power. Stray too far from ideal and things pop.

Finally, I tried (a little bit) to not be a dick in my previous post. With that said your car is slow and you failed epicly at realizing that Vettezuki was trying to let you know that you were actually wrong and that they have restrictors.

If you need a lesson taught that can be done. I will be happy to comply just let me know if I need to dust off my old fluild flow analysis text books or mount the DRs on the vette. I'm sure you are not ready to deal with either of them.

When you speak of tumblers, are you talking about tgv valves? do you refer intake manifold as intake runners??? Ours cars have them stock. Some people do tgv deletes when they go to a larger turbo setup. As to rally cars, they do not restrict these area im sure. if anything they are left as is with the valves still intact. To each rally car, has its own characteristics. dont assume these cars are the same as all other rally cars. Teach me something when you...yourself have no idea about our cars specifically? Did you have any clue that any power mod on a subaru wrx/sti must need a tune or engine will fail? Did you know we run Flat 4 motor? If power is the only thing that impresses you and just cause a wrx wagon 2.5 liter turbo engine doesnt have as good flowing heads as other motors and that will justify my car being SHIT?????

As goes for AFR? Correct air and fuel mixture used accordingly... i know buddy..not to limit power.........

as for baby dick turbos, yea the baby dick turbo has thousand and thousands of 1/4 mile registry posts running constant 11-13 seconds w/ 1.6-1.8 60fts. pending conditions and drivers and states.
vf43 vf39 series turbos.


First off, i didnt post this in the IMPORT section to have you talk shit about my wagon that you seem to be offended of, or seem to be calling me out?!?!?! I respect all cars and its own perks and good things and have nothing bad to say as Sean would know.

Seems as if your putting a conclusion just to my motor and that being said called shit? Im not offended in anything you have to say, just entertaining to see so much hate on a wagon that was never produced to compete with most of the cars out there, yet your badassc6.........


But if you want, in due time, ill gladly take my car out on a track/dragstrip/autox/canyon run and see if your cars power is as good as your driving skills. your gonna need abit more than just DR's. and 1/4 mile times to tell me my car is shit. Come play and then come to a conclusion. You better know how to really drive in all road courses.....

381 to the crank on a wagon that has handling that you have no idea about and your gonna say its shit??!?!?! 3100lb car im 400+ to the crank on 95 octane. all i can conclude about you is your just a straight hater.

as goes for transmissions.

04-08 sti 6 speeds all the same 07-08's came with longer 3rd 4th and 5th gears.

02-03 wrx 5 speeds are glass trannys.
04-07 wrx 5 speeds have a diff ratios but same gears. bit stronger but nowhere to not worry about if modified.
08+ wrx 5 speeds came with the LGT gears since the ratios were better matched, the power levels can hold better and less broken trannys.


if this is why i came onto this forum, then this is ridiculous.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by WagonSleeps

. . . . But if you want, in due time, ill gladly take my car out on a track/dragstrip/autox/canyon run and see if your cars power is as good as your driving skills. your gonna need abit more than just DR's. and 1/4 mile times to tell me my car is shit. Come play and then come to a conclusion. You better know how to really drive in all road courses.....

Ruh roh . . . . his Vette is set up for and he has 10x the experience at road courses as he does at the strip.

All in all, let's keep this focused on technical facts that can be supported with references for the purposes of actually learning something and having some fun. I don't want to have to push this into the Cafe.

For your reference:

NOT FACTS
"haha are you serious?????"
". . . your car is shit"

FACT
A drunken monkey can out shift Sean nine times out of ten.

Wagon,
Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread, but are you happy with where you are at? What plans do you have for this engine?

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by WagonSleeps

. . . do you refer intake manifold as intake runners??? . . .

Intake runners are the channels the air follows within the intake manifold as the air is sucked/pushed towards the intake port on the heads. As a rule of thumb, longer runners equal more lod-mid torque at the expense of high rev HP. Short runners "breathe faster" at higher revs. Very sophisticated engines, like some liter bikes now days use variable length runners that adjust according to rpm to optimize engine performance across the rev range.

The effect is a function of the velocity the air is traveling. Note, the effect you are having as can be seen in your sheet is the same as what is caused by the turbo restrictor on rally cars. Those engines actually get about a 20% bump in peak torque at low revs at the expense of about a 40% drop in peak HP at high revs, because of the restrictor. Given the choice Rally drivers would much prefer higher peak HP. They are restricted by the FIA as a safety issue. HP is a measure of work being done, torque is just a measure of force. More HP simply means a greater capacity for acceleration and top speed.

Having a strong bump in peak torque in the low-mid range is very useful on the street and especially tight quarters (e.g., typical AutoX). It becomes less of a factor rapidly on Big Open Road Courses, at the strip, and basically irrelevant for top speed runs.

Many of the great race engines through history to present are not very "torquey". Using the current 2.4L NA V8 in F1 cars as an example, you make considerably more torque than that engine ever does (roughly 200 ft. lbs). . . but they spin to 18,000+rpm and keep breathing, hence the 700+ HP.

This is the best I can explain it in concise terms based on my devoted amateur understanding.

In conclusion, if you're happy with the response of an engine with a strong peak torque curve low in the rev range, then you already have what you want. If you want a faster top end, you will need to make more power, and to do that you'll have to address the problem of air flow through the engine system at higher rpms. That's about it.

[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by WagonSleeps

as goes for transmissions.

04-08 sti 6 speeds all the same 07-08's came with longer 3rd 4th and 5th gears.

02-03 wrx 5 speeds are glass trannys.
04-07 wrx 5 speeds have a diff ratios but same gears. bit stronger but nowhere to not worry about if modified.
08+ wrx 5 speeds came with the LGT gears since the ratios were better matched, the power levels can hold better and less broken trannys.


if this is why i came onto this forum, then this is ridiculous.

I'm curious, do you know what the weak link is in the normal wrx tranmissions? Is it an input shaft, output shaft, or do they actually break gears? Don't worry about Badass, I think you're holding your own nicely

Now that you have your tranny in, what are you looking at next as far as mods are concerned? Have you upgraded axles yet? I would imagine at your power level that would be something you'd have to deal with

[WagonSleeps]

^^ Im not a Guru, just a person whos willing to hear some facts and statements that are backed up as well. but all in all, im not here to start trouble, nor bagg on certain cars or leave a bad rep for myself.

But my car is good for NOW, comming from a car that only had 200whp or less from factory, to 305whp on pump is a good bump for me. Fishing, Snowboarding, and lots of outdoor recreation, helps to have a wagon like this.


Sean, as for the 5 speeds, case flex was determined to be the cause. since 02 bugeyes first appeared with a bump in power compared to the other subaru non-turbo models. the 5 speed transmission was a no go. Same 5 speeds used in the non-turbo subarus. The actual gear itself would shatter. 3rd was the lucky gear that would always blow out. My 5 speed with 9k had blown 3rd gear..Subaru called it abuse but they would give me half off on the parts and labor, after the new rebuild, i had put down 335tq on pump on the tune previous to the chart you see. 45k on the tranny with more torque than i had stock and it held up just fine. but many people realize the 5 speed case will flex under good amounts of torque, causing the gears to flex, putting loads of pressure on the gear and boom.


My conclusion is, 02-07 still have issues with high tq. Some people have 100k ok their 5 speeds and they are still fine. The gear ratios on a Legacy GT is 4.44(i believe)compared to wrx models 3.7 and 3.9 fd. far more better matched. the 3rd gear is breaking from good amount of load. a


then again, the Legacy GT models came with same exact 5 speeds with different gear ratios and a different FD. These models with the LGT 5 speeds rarely have issues with their transmission even under modified power.

All in all, when the 5 speed came out from my car...it was PUNY compared to the 6 speed, and put a big relief on my car and i once the 6 speedo came in.

As far as future mods?

Axles will eventually go if i launch night and day. but im sure it can hold since the car isnt driven aggressively off the line on a day to day basis.

when the power comes, im looking for quick spool with a good 350whp. Lot of different routes to take to hit that number but. Im looking towards meth injection or a e85 race map. only time will tell

[SeanPlunk]

Originally Posted by WagonSleeps

^^ Im not a Guru in terms of automobiles, but i know how they function and tend to learn more and more about the car i drive.


Sean, as for the 5 speeds. since 02 bugeyes first appeared. the 5 speed transmission was a no go. The actual gear itself would shatter. 3rd was the lucky gear that would always blow out. My 5 speed with 9k had blown 3rd gear..Subaru called it abuse but they would give me half off on the parts and labor, after the new rebuild, i had put down 335tq on pump on the tune previous to the chart you see. 45k on the tranny with more torque than i had stock and it held up just fine.


My conclusion is, 02-07 still have issues with high tq. Some people have 100k ok their 5 speeds and they are still fine. The gear ratios on a Legacy GT is 4.44 compared to wrx models 3.7 and 3.9 fd. far more better matched. the 3rd gear is breaking from good amount of load


then again, the Legacy GT models came with same exact 5 speeds with different gear ratios and a different FD. These models with the LGT 5 speeds rarely have issues with their transmission even under modified power.

All in all, when the 5 speed came out from my car...it was PUNY compared to the 6 speed, and put a big relief on my car and i once the 6 speedo came in.

As far as future mods?

Axles will eventually go if i launch night and day. but im sure it can hold since the car isnt driven aggressively off the line on a day to day basis.

when the power comes, im looking for quick spool with a good 350whp. Lot of different routes to take to hit that number but. Im looking towards meth injection or a e85 race map. only time will tell

My brother has meth injection on his turbo buick and loves it. I think he's running 20psi with 91pump+meth.

As for the transmissions, it's very interesting to here. I'm surprised Subaru wouldn't put a stronger transmission in WRX's. I mean, they had to figure owners would run them hard after all.

Perhaps we should just swap in a unit from a Nissan GTR - we know those hold up to power well

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by SeanPlunk

My brother has meth injection on his turbo buick and loves it. I think he's running 20psi with 91pump+meth.

As for the transmissions, it's very interesting to here. I'm surprised Subaru wouldn't put a stronger transmission in WRX's. I mean, they had to figure owners would run them hard after all.

Perhaps we should just swap in a unit from a Nissan GTR - we know those hold up to power well

If you're inclined to deal with locating E85, I'd vote for that route. Turbo setups LOVE E85. CornFeds difference in output on the same exact setup between Pump and E85 was massive across the whole curve. It really is a great performance fuel. If the tree-huggers make it a bit more available in CA, I'd probably go that route myself on a vicious NA setup.