[Shaolin Crane]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

This is the point probably. Not so much disagreement on desired reasonable ends. The means are important though. Depending on the parent and child and methods, the child can grow up with as many problems that result from crappy attempts at discipline as anything else.

I don't have kids, but my personal opinion is that I'd be as easy, loving and affectionate as possible, instilling cause and effect through discussion and "trade" as much as possible.

I think people, regardless of age, have an instinctive desire for stuff obviously, so it's a matter of defining the parameters of how they get and keep it. Frankly, by the time kids start getting towards ten, and certainly by teenage years, they should probably get some allowance that they can use as they please (and what they get is purely theirs at that point) or work to buy what they want. When I was 10 my dad told me he didn't have anymore free money, so I went to work. He paid me $100/week (1984) to work with him . . and I did really work, over the summer and made a bit more than $1k, which I used to buy things I wanted, like a Free Style Haro bike. It was one of the most satisfying memories in my life. A couple years later I bought my own guitars and so own. These things were always just treated as my property though I was a child.

I am NOT saying parents shouldn't provide things for their kids, but I think there's considerable room for kids to get acquainted with the idea of providing for themselves at a fairly young age. There could be exceptions to this in the case where a kid had some special talent or is completely focused on advanced education from an early age that required all their time and focus.

i've been teaching children for a while now (05)

The problem with trying to be understanding and fair about certian things is children WILL call your bluff eventually. Now i'm not a parent(thank god and should be a permanent thing soon) but i've had to deal with ALL types of kids. If there isnt concern something unreversable is going to happen they will keep doing it. I didnt get allowance from my dad but my sister did. We both had even chores, i also knew if i didnt take care of my chores or my items it would be REALLY difficult to re-obtain them, so i cared and worked hard for them.

Sometimes you HAVE to back up your guns, and if you do it the right way it will only need to be done once, wether or not you're nice about it. There should be some fear when it comes to parenting, you're not there to be their friend, you're there to raise them.

I've had my students call my bluff, but i make sure i carry it out in a way where it only happens once, i also dont care what they think of me afterwards because i know its for the better of them. Parenting should be the same way, too many parents view their children as friends and let them do anything. If your kid asked you to try coke what would you say? What would you do if you found out? What would your kids say if someone else asked them about what their parents would think.

I know that i was afraid of my dad, but only when i did something i KNEW was wrong. Cause i knew there would be serious reprocusions.

[94cobra69ss396]

I disagree. You are trying to handle someone elses kids, not ones that you raised. I think if you bring the child up right then you do not have to give an unreversable consequence for something they did wrong. I can tell you that if you were teaching either one of my girls you would not have to discipline them at all. If you told them to do something in class they would do as you say.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by 94cobra69ss396

I don't want to give my kids an allowance. I prefer to buy them the things they want if they earn them. They still have chores that they are required to do but they don't get paid for it. If there is a doll they want then I buy it for them. If they don't do their chores then it is taken away and they have to earn it back.

Not picking a fight here, only expressing a difference of opinion. You're obviously doing a great job. The world would be a better place if the average parent was half as devoted as you guys are.

From my POV, if a person earns X, it is theirs. If they are a child or not does not matter. When you say they earn something, then remove it, you set up a little bit confusing property relationship; one where *everything* is effectively conditionally leased/rented. In this way, they child may learn obedience to authority, but may not develop a fully mature sense of ownership.

When I was a teenager I didn't get an allowance, my parents just gave me money when I needed it for things like gas. I still had chores that I was required to do but that was just something I knew I had to do.

The benefit of something like a fixed allowance, or wage for chores, is that the child begins to learn the art and technique of budgetting. "I want to go to the movies, eat with friends, buy some music, but I don't have enough money for everything . . what do I want to do most?" This is the capitalist in me. It prepares a child for the reality of our society. The former is effectively socialist in orientation (as a family sort of is), but misses an opportunity for conditioning IMO. You commie. This is quasi serious though as I am fucking stupefied how incompetent people in general, but especially young adults are with money, which in turns sets them up for potentially a lifetime of difficulty and stress, where just a little practical learning at a young age may change everything. This is not about "learning" to be greedy, selfish money grubbing or anything of the sort, it's about learning the reality of scarce resources and making intelligent choices with those resources based on your short and long term preferences.

However, that was only because I played basketball which required a lot of time. I was given the choice that I could either play a sport or get a job. I had been playing basketball for years before that so for me it was a given that I was going to continue playing. For Phil, he decided his sophmore year to stop playing and instead got a job.

I played baseball all the time, and worked at a batting cage (among other places). What I didn't do nearly as much as some other kids is just hang out, so that's where that time came from. This is not better or worse, just my choice. The sad reality is that it is now quite difficult for kids under 16 to work anywhere even if they wanted to.

Since my girls are only 8 and 10 I don't know what I will do when they are in high school but I think they are both going to be athletes (softball and soccer). So more than likely sports and school will keep them busy so they won't be working.

Present some options and explain them and let them choose and change their minds as they see fit. No reason they can't start learning this kind of adult decision making and they'll have and love the feeling of controlling their own life. The parents role, in my view, is far more of guidance than control.

[94cobra69ss396]

I agree with you that it's the parents job give guidance but at a young age is it also their job to control that child. I disagree that giving them an allowance is the only way to teach them how to be responsible with money. After basketball season was over my senior year I got a job at Econo Lube and saved up enough money to get an apartment. After I finished school I moved out. I worked at Econo Lube for 9 months and then changed jobs. I worked for that company for 22 years before we got bought out and closed. That's when I went to work for my current employer who I've been with for almost 9 years. My wife and I bought our first house when we got married and it was a small little two bedroom that we could afford on just my income. We later sold that house and bought our current house again that we could afford on just my income. Even though my parents gave me money I still learned how to manage my expenses.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by 94cobra69ss396

. . but at a young age is it also their job to control that child.

Sure and what that means at different ages will be different for different children. I guess my basic principle is they should have as much freedom and self direction as possible as they can handle it. Basically, taking the training wheels off so to speak.

I disagree that giving them an allowance is the only way to teach them how to be responsible with money

.

I didn't say or even mean to imply it was. Just one pretty simple way that's all.

. . . My wife and I bought our first house when we got married and it was a small little two bedroom that we could afford on just my income. We later sold that house and bought our current house again that we could afford on just my income. . . .

If everyone followed a pattern like this we woulnd't have any troubles at all. Hell, we'd be a lot better off if people were just aware it was possible.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by Shaolin Crane

. . Now i'm not a parent(thank god and should be a permanent thing soon) . .

There are probably three things any couple must agree pretty tightly on or it WILL blow up in there face eventually.

1 - Kids. If one wants them and the other doesn't, you're going to have problems. Period. One must accept the position of the other. In my personal case I kind of wanted them and my wife did not, then fate intervened with a medical issue and that was that. But I'd be lying if I won't forever have some curiosity. Plus I think we can all agree I'd be about the coolest fucking dad ever. But the important part is that I understood and accepted my wife's position so I have no regrets. But if,as is more common, a woman strongly wants children as a life goal and has her identity tied up with it, and doesn't get them, she WILL have serious psychological issues as a result and those WILL affect the dude. You have to be reading from the same music on this.

2 - Money and work. If one is a tight wad and the other is a big spender, disaster is only a matter of time. Likewise if one prefers time and being together, doing stuff and the other is a severe work-a-holic, disaster is only a matter of time. Women get curious too, and more than a few have drifted to another man because their significant other was more commited to their job.

3 - Religion/spirituality. Also related to kids. If the parents have different faith traditions, they need to be in agreement on what they are going to teach or expose to their kids. What you don't want is a Holy War in the house.

This is the kind of shit couples really need to work out before they start getting serious about coupling for life. Especially before they unintentionally start making kids.

[Shaolin Crane]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

There are probably three things any couple must agree pretty tightly on or it WILL blow up in there face eventually.

1 - Kids. If one wants them and the other doesn't, you're going to have problems. Period. One must accept the position of the other. In my personal case I kind of wanted them and my wife did not, then fate intervened with a medical issue and that was that. But I'd be lying if I won't forever have some curiosity. Plus I think we can all agree I'd be about the coolest fucking dad ever. But the important part is that I understood and accepted my wife's position so I have no regrets. But if,as is more common, a woman strongly wants children as a life goal and has her identity tied up with it, and doesn't get them, she WILL have serious psychological issues as a result and those WILL affect the dude. You have to be reading from the same music on this.

2 - Money and work. If one is a tight wad and the other is a big spender, disaster is only a matter of time. Likewise if one prefers time and being together, doing stuff and the other is a severe work-a-holic, disaster is only a matter of time. Women get curious too, and more than a few have drifted to another man because their significant other was more commited to their job.

3 - Religion/spirituality. Also related to kids. If the parents have different faith traditions, they need to be in agreement on what they are going to teach or expose to their kids. What you don't want is a Holy War in the house.

This is the kind of shit couples really need to work out before they start getting serious about coupling for life. Especially before they unintentionally start making kids.

not sure where i implied we didnt have a handle on this, i completely agree so let me set the record straight.

1. I'm being fixed on the 9th, plain and simple. IF i were to want kids, and thats a huge IF cause i generally cant stand kids, at all. And i teach them as a requirement for certain certifications, thats it. She is the same way, she cant stand kids and doesnt want them. If for some odd reason 20 years down the line we both want kids i see adoption being just as much of an option as natural birth, there are plenty of kids in the world, hell in our own country who dont have homes, why would they be less of an option?

2. Money and work. I work hard cause i play hard, i dont work hard because i have nothing better to do. I work hard because there is so much better to do. I'm pretty good with my money, or at least i think so. My attainments ive made with hiw little i get paid is pretty awesome in my opinion. Vanessa also is a great saver. Ron hit the nail on the head, everything i purchase i make sure i can afford with my own money alone. This way she is able to finish schooling uniterupted. And any money she brings in is all gravy and fun. :umber one priority is not to put us on hold for stupid things, date night is a mandatory weekly thing. I make sure it happens every week regardless of the shit i have going on. I also have no issue putting off work for a day when she just need a hug or a get away. You dont get extras after life for ignoring your beloved for work.

3. Religion, we're both not very religious, simple. We have a certain guidline of decency towards each other. No cheating etc. Dont have to be religious to be a good person. I guess you can say my religion is my honor of the martial arts. Or bushido(budo) if you will.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by Shaolin Crane

. . . She is the same way, she cant stand kids and doesnt want them.

Oh hell I thought she wanted kids for some reason.

If for some odd reason 20 years down the line we both want kids i see adoption being just as much of an option as natural birth, there are plenty of kids in the world, hell in our own country who dont have homes, why would they be less of an option?

Mega agree. In fact, unless you just want your own flesh and blood (which is understandable too), but having a kid is the main goal, adoption is a better choice IMO. My work is fairly insane and my wife is gone most of the day everyday, so we sponsor a kid in Zambia and I'm thinking of doing Big Brother where I have some flexibility with time.

2. Money and work.

3. Religion

I was just opinating, nothing directed at you. One was though.

[Shaolin Crane]

Nope, we both cant stand kids. Case by case basis is ok, but generally cant. I'll agree Ron's kids are great but its definitely something i dont as a part of my life. Neither does she, she has looked into methods of sterylization as well but i deemed to have it performed on me cause there is FAR less risk. Plus 2 little incisions isnt nearly as bad as some of the trauma my nards have been through.

I'm glad to say we have things down pretty well, and the happy that people see when we're together transfers over into our private life as well. She's like the other side of my coin, and its a great feeling.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by Shaolin Crane

Nope, we both cant stand kids. Case by case basis is ok, but generally cant. I'll agree Ron's kids are great but its definitely something i dont as a part of my life. Neither does she, she has looked into methods of sterylization as well but i deemed to have it performed on me cause there is FAR less risk. Plus 2 little incisions isnt nearly as bad as some of the trauma my nards have been through.

I'm glad to say we have things down pretty well, and the happy that people see when we're together transfers over into our private life as well. She's like the other side of my coin, and its a great feeling.

The best reason in the world not to have kids is because you don't want them. The worst thing is to have them because you think you're supposed to when in fact you don't want them. It's cruel to the child and there's plenty of that going around.

As for matching, it's the best thing in the world.