[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

Sport truck? The lightning is a sport truck, the raptor isn't.

"Sport" as in "Autosports". Say, Baja racing for exmample, which has several decades of fierce . . . wait for it . . . wait for it. . . competition. The Raptor is clearly and intentionally derived from that form of AUTOSPORTS. The Lightning? Let's take the muscle car idea and put it in a truck. Fine. But calling the Raptor not a Sport Truck belies a substantial blind spot or simple bias IMO.

Performer? Well it isn't a 2wd truck, therefore it's too heavy to be a jump worthy performer, like the trophy trucks.

Fair enough observation. But as far as stock trucks go it seems to be pretty stout for very serious off roading including jumping. Clearly no competition.

And as far as being a practical truck to tow and haul, well it's not a diesel. So Duramax and Cummins and Powerstrokes win. So what good is it really? It's a Glamis cruiser. What else? Name a practical purpose for it.

It's not intended to be practical. Tell the truth and shame the Devil, how practical is a Vette in day to day life? Not much. A TINY fraction of owners ever get anywhere near a track of any kind. This is all about perceived value and "posing".

Once again, great truck, top of its genre sure. But what genre? And who cares about that genre? No one in here has bought one... What would you, Leedom, do with this truck personally, that your Mustang or Chuck's diesel couldn't do better?

Fair enough. I wonder what the real vs. projected sales are?

[enkeivette]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

"Sport" as in "Autosports". Say, Baja racing for exmample, which has several decades of fierce . . . wait for it . . . wait for it. . . competition. The Raptor is clearly and intentionally derived from that form of AUTOSPORTS. The Lightning? Let's take the muscle car idea and put it in a truck. Fine. But calling the Raptor not a Sport Truck belies a substantial blind spot or simple bias IMO.



Fair enough observation. But as far as stock trucks go it seems to be pretty stout for very serious off roading including jumping. Clearly no competition.



It's not intended to be practical. Tell the truth and shame the Devil, how practical is a Vette in day to day life? Not much. A TINY fraction of owners ever get anywhere near a track of any kind. This is all about perceived value and "posing".

Baja racing is not an argument, that is exactly why I brought up the AWD vs 2 wheel drive thing. Anyone seriously interested in owning a dezert race worthy truck following that genre of racing will go 2 wheel drive.

Notice anything missing? You just can't get enough travel out of a 4 wheel drive setup, it's too heavy, and for that sport, it is unnecessary.



Way better platform than the raptor for the genre you are talking about:

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Fair enough. I wonder what the real vs. projected sales are?

Not even a theoretical response to that one? As far at the vette being practical, well um, have you even heard of a Motorgen cruise? Piston aside, I could go drive my vette right now down the canyon and enjoy it. Chuck can tow my boat and do some four wheeling in the housing development tracts when it rains (don't ask how I got that idea). What can the raptor do right now? Drive 4 hours out to Glamis and cruise around quickly? Not as quickly as a 2 wheel drive truck bought for the same purpose.

[enkeivette]

I've given this issue a lot of thought. Before I bought the Jeep I was trying to decide whether I should pick up an AWD one or a 2 wheel drive one (which would have had less miles). With the two wheel drive one, I could build some extended arms, an engine cage and get some coilovers for it and be able to race it offroad. But I thought about it, thinking realistically, how often am I going to be able to jump it? Not very. And Glamis is no longer a regular thing for me. But offroading and towing a boat up a wet ramp would be. So the decision was clear AWD. So now that were looking at an AWD work truck, well maybe the Raptor is better than my Jeep (probably not because I doubt it has 4 low and a LSD front and center diff also), but Chucks diesel is certainly, without question better.

Additionally, if we're talking about 4 wheeling, the Jeep Wrangler is a better platform than the Raptor. So I ask again: Of what use is the Raptor? In what practical field is it the best? Or is it a sideways hat bro truck for Glamis cruising?

[enkeivette]

I want to emphasize one more time, the Raptor is a bad ass truck, and I would be proud to own one. But it is top of nothing, and it CERTAINLY has worthy competition from GM and Chrysler in all genres.

Ford is great at building awesome dual purpose cruiser vehicles. Look at the Mustang, a better race car than the Vette? Obviously not. But the Vette can't hold your whole family. Is the Raptor better than the Wrangler for four wheeling? No, but it's better for jumping. Is the Raptor better than a 2wd F150 with a factory lift for jumping? No, but it won't get stuck! It may be the best all around, but it doesn't take the cake anywhere.

What Ford should really do is build a lighter 2wd Raptor for the Baja crowd. I would give it the edge in that genre for a factory vehicle.

[Vettezuki]

It's painful to say this. But you're basically right.

[enkeivette]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

It's painful to say this. But you're basically right.

What the fuck? Am I still sleeping?

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

What the fuck? Am I still sleeping?

I was gonna get picky on several details but it would have been more arguing semantics and nuance rather than fundamentals and I'm just not in the mood; so you get off easy . . . this time.

[94cobra69ss396]

Adam's not right. If you think a stock 2wd F150 with it's 6 inches of suspension travel can come any where near a Raptor with it's 11.2 inches of front suspension travel and 13.4 inches of rear suspension travel you're crazy. The truck was specifically designed for running across the desert fast. Ford spent a lot of time working with companies like Fox Racing Shox to develop and tune the suspension to handle woops and jumps. There is not another factory truck on the market that can touch it in the area it was designed for.

You keep comparing it to a Wrangler but they are designed for different things. Have you ever gone out to the desert to prerun? Try taking a Wrangler out to Lucerne to prerun. They handle like crap over woops because of the limited suspension travel and short wheelbase. They're close in wheelbase to my brothers FJ and my Explorer leaves his FJ in the dust over the woops with only 10 inches of front travel and 11.5 rear travel and crappy shocks that fade after about 10-15 minutes. A stock Raptor would leave me in the dust.

Now even though it's designed for running fast over woops it's still a capable 4x4. It has 4.10 gears, electronic rear locker and a 2.64:1 low range along with the already mentioned suspension travel. It won't do as well in the rocks or tight trails as a Wrangler will but it will do fine on most of the trails that you would run a stock Wrangler through hear in So Cal.

Oh, and it also has a tow rating of 6000lbs and a tow mode for the transmission. Granted, that's not much but it's better than your Neon and enough to tow your boat.

I'd be more than happy if my Explorer would wheel like it does now and handle like a Raptor through the woops and jumps.

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by 94cobra69ss396

Adam's not right. If you think a stock 2wd F150 with it's 6 inches of suspension travel can come any where near a Raptor with it's 11.2 inches of front suspension travel and 13.4 inches of rear suspension travel you're crazy. . .

I don't think he ever said stock to stock. He said platform and concept, and design consistency to that concept. The Raptor is a mix of ideas in this regards on this I think he's basically right. Nor did he ever say it was a POS. But if a desert racer, tower, or wheeler is what you're after, $50k and a different starting point is a better choice. If what want a factory blend of the things a Raptor offers, there's nothing like it; that's clear. I've seen a grand total of one on the road, so I wonder if they missed the mark with demographic targeting.

[94cobra69ss396]

Originally Posted by enkeivette

Is the Raptor better than the Wrangler for four wheeling? No, but it's better for jumping. Is the Raptor better than a 2wd F150 with a factory lift for jumping? No, but it won't get stuck!

Yes he did. I think you guys are missing the point. It's like someone saying why would you spend $150,000 on a Ferrari when you can make a Vette do the same thing for less money. Maybe they don't want to take the time it takes to design and build a prerunner. Take that picture of the truck Adam posted. Do you really think that truck has less than $50,000 in it?

Also, I've seen probably 10-15 of them running around so I think Ford hit their mark.