Need feedback on engine choices
 

Hi , I'm Adams dad. I am looking to buy an engine to replace the 351 in my 72 Mach. I am looking at two engines. Would appreciate any advice or suggestions from the motorgen members. My two choices are:

1.Rebuilt 429, no intake

2. Used 460 out of Lincoln

These sales end in the next couple of days so I would appreciate feedback as soon as possible. Thanks

________________
Andy

1972 Mustang Mach 1

Finally got my dad on here. Help him out guys. Some day when the car is running better I am going to drag him to the meets and cruises.

Welcome aboard!

How do you intend to use the engine when complete?
What is your approximate budget for FINISHED and installed engine?

The first one above looks pretty built at an appealing price, but the cam looks pretty large. That engine is going to lope fairly hard at lower revs I think. It would want to be revved to make it's power. Think screamer.

The second one is going to have an unknown number of issues and therefore costs to finish, not to mention time. I have a friend who used exactly this block as the basis for his Cobra kit and it was an absolute beast when completed.

For your reference, you might want to check Ford Performance Solutions. They're only about 10 miles from you and sell high performance ready to drop motors.

http://www.f-p-s.com/

I'm sure Ron will be on here in no time will give you a lot more usable info.

You know my thoughts on this. I've done a few 71 - 73 stangs with 429s. I like this engine combo in a light vehicle. 429s will rev to 7,000 rpm with big cam -no problem.
Low end torque is not brutal:sm_laughing:,

The 460 is a good motor also. It has a longer stroke than the 429 and the same bore. Either will work well. 460 has brutal:sm_laughing: low end torque. It's not a bad thing --just hard on tires.

Remember the 71-73 mustangs came with 429s.:)


I have a set of early 429 close cambered heads and 4 bl intake at my shop that I have had for 25+ years.:judge: Just cause closed chamber is the best and are very hard to come by.


Being either are early 70s style it comes to the heads. If either one has the small chambers then it's a toss up. If one is open chamber and one is closed chamber, the closed chamber is the one to get.

Remember our little talk about FORD heads at the park?

You forgot about me--did you??:mad::nutkick:

Brain fart.

Why do you say that cam is large? It seems like a pretty mild cam to me. It should idle just fine.

The 429 looks like a better choice to me.

Joel is right the cam is small. I looked it up on Summit's website and it only has 204 in./214 ex. @ .050 with a 112 LSA. In a 429 it will probably have a smooth idle with a ton of low end torque. The operating range shows 1500-4000 so it will only pull to about 5000 which will let the engine live a long time.

I don't know much about BBF and have never worked on them but if I were buying one of these I would definately go with the 429. Then pick up a dual plane intake for it. The Weiand Stealth model 8012 is the least expensive on Summit for just under $200.

My dad can afford either choice. I think he is trying to stay $3K or under for the engine. His stang will be a weekend cruiser with the occasional spanking of his kid and his big mouth (me). :crutches: He wants something fairly mild, if a 429 or 460 can be called mild. He is not looking for a lopy cammed motor. He wants something with a little lope at idle and something that can scare the neighbors when stomped on. Originally he was thinking about 400 HP/TQ with his 351, but then started thinking what would a 429/460 be like? Personally I like his thinking.

This seems to be the cam in question.

Can we call it on the mild side of larger, or bigger side of mild? ;) It's certainly bigger than any OEM cam I can think of. An interesting question might be, what was the size(s) of the original Mach1 cam?

You're right though it's not a screamer, but 112 LSA is going to lope a bit. Whether that's ok for regular street driving is a matter of personal taste.

Maybe this is where I was getting deep in the weeds. What difference does it being in a 429 make? I was thinking in terms of my LSx (SBC) where 224/224 114 LSA (my cam) is considered "mild" and has a very slight lope to it. Having heard cams with this kind of duration and LSA (with much higher lift though :huh:) in other LS motors, they sound pretty aggressive.

Do you know how big the original M1 cams were?

Weiand Stealth model 8012 is a little tall. May have hood clearance problems. Won't know until you get the motor in the vehicle to measure hood clearance to block height.


Maybe someone has already done this?

Even though I'm not a fan of Edelbrock Performer (RPM is better) it should be low enough to fit in Mustang.

But again, measure block to hood height.

Small cam for a 429. Smooth idle with 112 LSA.:drink:

Good low end street cam.

Didn't someone else you know suggest the 429/460? :huh::p

The bigger the engine the small the cam seems. I had an Erson in my Chevelle when I had the 396 in it and it had 214/214 at .050 with .514/.514 lift on a 112 LSA and it didn't have a lope at all. It was very smooth with an 800 rpm idle and pulled to 5800. I ran a best time of 13.23 at 103 with that cam with 9:1 compression, a Performer intake with Holley 850DP and 3.73 gears. It was alos my daily driver at the time. I then changed out the cam for a Herbert cam with 244/244 @ .050 with a .544/.544 on a 110LSA and went 12.96 at 106. That cam had a lope to it though and idled at 1000rpm.

Yes Glenn you suggested it too. We had been talking about it and I think the conversation with you kind of pushed him over the edge and is not seriously looking into it.

Roger. I stand corrected.

FTR, if the choice were between these two motors, I'd go with the 429.

Seller said the pistons, rods, and crank are stock Ford parts.

No need for anything more than that. I'm not sure what the compression was on the original engine but my guess would be somewhere around 9:1. Glenn probably would have an idea.

Would I be safe in calling the 429 option a "fairly" tame street motor?

I am assuming that this motor would be over 450HP and about 500 ft/lb?

That's going to depend on how you finish it off with intake, and headers, etc. But I rather doubt anything near that power and torque level. Especially if compression is down that low and those are stock unported heads. Think more like 350/400 (at the crank . . . maybe). I've seen this happen in person at dynos. Guys with good ole big blocks in street cars (not like Ron's Chevelle), finished off rather nicely, get a little disheartened when they discover their power to the wheels is in the low 300s at best.

Now let's see what the guys who know what they're talking about say. :)

Depending on the heads and compression I would would guess around 350-400hp and 500-530tq.

I'm thinking around the same as you except I think it will have 500tq. By the way your right about the Chevelle. When I took it to have it dyno'd to check the AFR Steve told me that he thought it would put down around 350rwhp. He was really surprised when it put down 460rwhp.

Do you mean at the flywheel or to the wheels?

I forget BB torque is so stout.

At the flywheel.

I've had several SBFs with 112 LSA and they really had very little lope, if any. The 429 is going to smooth out that idle much more than the SBFs I've had. You really won't get any lope, IMHO.

Edit: I see this has already been covered. Just disregard what I said.

"you kind of pushed him over the edge and is not seriously looking into it"

So now it's my fault?????:leaving:

A stock 429 in a 1970 Mach 1 made 370 bhp and 450 lbs-ft of torque. They were 11.3:1 compression.

1970 had 11 to 1 compression. Same as my 70 T-bird. Stock HP is 360 with 485 ft lbs of torque.:bigthumbsup:

My 429 runs great on 91 octane. The bigger the cam the better the 11.1 works.


A cam with .050 duration of about 235 degrees is a good start for the 429. Try to keep the lift down for a street engine. Guide wear is bad with a very high lift cam.:bigthumbsup:

Were those stock heads worth a poop?

What FORD did was take at look at the BB chevy engine and built the 429 correcting all the problems with the BBC:thumbs_up:

Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet engines were not tame. When tuned correctly they were low 12s to high 11s in the Torino.

Yes and no. The intake is pretty fair but the exhaust port needs work. I do know someone that knows how to fix the exhaust port. He is a close personal friend of mine. In fact he is a REALLY cool dude!:smack:

You run about 10 degrees more exhaust duration because of the port.

ANY aftermarket head will be better than stock.:drink:

Trick Flow, Edelbrock and Ford Racing all make heads for the 429 for around $1000 each. Summit has the Performer RPMs for $920 per head for a 95cc combustion chamber and $1010 per head for a 75cc chamber. The Performer RPMs are what I'm running on the Chevelle.

Engine choices
 

Thanks to all for your input. I think the majority opinion is the 429, which is what I was leaning to. And yes, the conversations in the park steered me toward the 429.

I' m probably looking for something in the mid 400s for hp and 500s for trq.
I want something that will idle decent but have a little lope.

Thanks again guys.

Sounds like you're reasonably close with that 429, though you will probably have to change out heads to get to that approximate power and torque. But you can do that any old time after getting her up and run'n. :thumbs_up:

"What Ford did was study the BBC engine and correct all the problems."

"Any aftermarket heads are better than stock."

Is it just me, or does this sound....................wierd?:pot_stir:

Yea, when put like that it does sound weird.
It's too hard to get the Cobra Jet heads so aftermarket is the way to go over the regular stock type head. I can port the BBF head to help flow, but you gain so much more with aftermarket heads.
Next time I see you I'll explain what FORD did to improve over the BBC. It was all minor stuff .
Unfortunately FORD improved on BBC but when it came to the exhaust port they kind of.....well........missed it some. Also, the STOCK FORD rods can be thought of as a little weak.:sm_up_there:

With the right heads a BBF will match or (sometimes) exceed a BBC in power-- everything else being equal. Of course you can argue the point. :judge:

It is still cheaper to build a BBC than a BBF.:drink:

Since the stock 1970 429 is 360/370 hp and up to 485 ft lbs, getting to 450 hp and around 500 ft lbs is not that difficult with the right cam, exhaust and intake. This can be done with the stock heads. :drink:

Yeah, keep in mind big aftermarket SBC heads are around 200cc while BBC heads are well over 300cc.

If you plan to do heads and cam, I'd go with the 460. If you plan to run the stock heads, I'd go for the motor that make more hp stock (which sounds like it's prob the 429).

Well, actually I'd do it the other way around. Why? Cause the 460 has more low end torque and the stock heads would not be noticed as much with the extra grunt. But, that's just me.:judge:

The bore is larger than a 454 BBC (actually the same on both the 460 and 429) so you can put bigger valves in the BBF than the BBC. :pot_stir: