No, doesn't matter. The only reason the intake would be different for a 351 would be that the heads would be a little further apart.

Ok got it that the blower intake will fit to either heads without issue.

Regarding our performance application, buying after market, should we?
- buy 302
- buy 351
- arbitrary

Why?

Also, the difference between the 289/302 intake and the 351W intake is that the 351 is wider due to the block being taller.

Performer RPM 302


Performer RPM 351

Buy good aftermarket heads in the 185-195cc range. The best flowing SBF heads are the GT40s that cam on the Cobra's like mine. I replaced mine with box stock AFR 165's and picked up 50hp.

Ok, got it. Out of curiosity, BRUTAL sugested 190-210 and you're suggesting 185-195. What's the theory and why did you guys select slightly different ranges of intake runners. Basically I'm targeting 195 since it's inside both your ranges.

Trans Axle and Tires
 

Ok we know our trans and it turns out the stock axle is 4.1. Assuming a 255/60x15 that gives us this, which is probably not enough top end. Maybe we need an even taller tire?

You should be able to spin that engine and make power to 6500 with the right heads. I would spin it up to 6000 before, but because of the heads, power would die off about 5500.

I think 210cc is too much for our little 306 with the rpm range we are in. If this was a 347 or if we were going to change the cam and spin this 306 to 8000 then I would agree that we should run 200-210 but not with the 306 and a max of 6500rpms.

This engine is equivalent to what I'm running in the Cobra with the exception of a root instead of a centrifugal. I'm running AFR 165 heads and a Crane 2040 and it pulls strong to 6000rpms. On a chassis dyno I put down 433rwhp with the supercharger belt slipping at 5300rpms. I would have put AFR 185 heads on originally but I still had the stock bottom end and the stock pistons won't clear the larger valves in them. I now have forged pistons that will clear the larger valves so an upgrade is in order one day.

Head bolts are different. 7/16s on the SBC and 1/2 inch on 351w. BUT, if I remember correctly, there are SPECIAL head bolts for that. Anyone??


"BTW, what about intake and carb, those seem important too. :nuts:"
I though we were going blower?

The reason I picked 190 to 210 is the difference between manufactures flow rates. Some 210cc flow about what a AFR 190cc does in the mid lifts. AFR around 190cc would be about perfect. But, you said cost was a factor.


Everyone has different ideas on what to use. Lets figure our cost factor and THEN we can pick our intake runner based on manufacture flow rates.:drink:

Another thing to keep in mind is: An NA motor drags the air/fuel into the cylinder- a forced induction pushes the air/fuel in. Port velocity in small NA engines is VERY important. BUT, Forced Induction is pushed thru port and port size (to a limit) can be bigger than on a NA motor.

Good points.

Hey, thanks.:drink:

Every once in a while I get things right.:nuts:

Joe has the intake with the blower, but does not have a carb for it anymore. He suggested a Demon Holly 750. Anyone, anyone?


I will begin looking for a smoking deal on AFR 190s~ to get a feel for how much they will likely be.

Or maybe just a pair of these, as BRUTAL originally suggested.
http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/...roducts_id=106

AFR is the best for the cost.



These are the heads I actually suggested. Now these are China heads. They will probably need some work- quality may be an issue ( I haven't seen these head myself)--but the price is right. I know some of you guys don't like china heads. :judge:
http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/...products_id=29

I just talked to Troy at Ford Performance in Anaheim. They're a speed shop in Anaheim that build motors of all types, but somewhat specialize in Ford. He helped me a bit during my Corvette build.

I talked to him about our build and he recommended off the shelf as cast Avenger Heads with 195 cc runners, Fully assembled including shaft mounted rockers: $859 for the pair. They were going for like $1199 and up recently, but the economy ain't so hot. They are brand new aluminum heads. He says he uses them on their crate NA 347 for 440HP. Plenty of head for our application.

This seems like the way to go, the AFRs are just a bit much. Any thoughts?

He had two questions. What are the pistons? Something about making sure they had the proper valve relief. He said as long as they were aftermarket pistons there should be no problem. Also, he wanted to know about the cam so he could set up the spring pressure properly.

Keep looking or pull the trigger? This represents the upper end of my budget for heads.

Yep, most aftermarket heads are interchangeable now. You just have to purchase the correct head bolts/studs.

I don't remember and can't find the paperwork to determine what pistons I purchased for this engine. They are definitely aftermarket pistons. I'm pretty sure they have valve reliefs cut in them, but you'll be able to see that when you pull the heads anyway.

Again, I can't find any specs on the cam, but I would be very surprised if it had more than .540 lift on the exhaust side, and no more than ~230 - 240* of duration at .050 on the exhaust side. It would be less on the intake side. This was a pretty mild cam.

That sounds fine to me. I won't know till I look at the head if they have possiblites. Even then I can only look for MAJOR problems with the Port shape and bowl area. Does he have some flow numbers? I can look at those (if the flow numbers are correct) and get an idea what it will do.

They are probably fine, your call. Like I said, we can make anything work here.:drink:


Just need a good starting point. They will be better than any stock head I could port.:)


Saturday after the run I could give a Porting 101 class. Someone just needs to bring a pad (big) and pen.

I couldn't find the 195cc version on their website, but I looked at the 185cc & 205cc. The 185 flowed 274 cfm on intake and 190 on exhaust @ .550 lift. The 205 flowed 290 cfm on intake and 223 on exhaust @ .550 lift.

http://www.avengercylinderheads.com/SBF185.pdf

http://www.avengercylinderheads.com/SBF205.pdf

These heads are "as cast". They need to be ported for maximum awesomeness.

We are going with 195 (I think).

Here are the flow numbers for his CNC Ported 185:
Lift:cfm-in:cfm-out
.100:69:59
.200:129:118
.300:188:153
.400:234:178
.500:269:189
.600:278:195
.700:281:210
.800:288:228

For his CNC Ported 205
.100:71:61
.200:142:124
.300:190:162
.400:252:200
.500:287:218
.600:300:225
.700:305:230
.800:309:235


So, I sort of infer that our flow numbers for a 195 and .550 lift would be
284:207

How's dat?

Not bad. This is for the AFR 205 version.

.100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600
65 133 192 238 271 292
51 114 173 210 231 236

I think those heads would work well and they're about $500 less than AFR.

If the 195's as cast are simular to the 185 CNC then they will work fine. The mid lift is not as good as AFRs (no one is really) but this is a "GOOD" head. I'd still like to see a set. Without a flow bench a clean-up (if needed) is the best way to go.

"In head porting, what you don't do is sometimes more important than what you do do". Brutal :judge:

If I do Porting 101, you will know enough to understand what entailes a good head.:D:drink:

I'll volunteer my BBC Edelbrock Performer RPM rectangular ports for a porting 101 class. I want to port them anyways so if you want to give a demo on port them all the better. I just have to pull them off the car.

No grinding:rolleyes:, this is 101 pre porting class. Just drawings and verbal abuse. But everyone will learn alot and it's free.;)

Is this going to be like the porting section in the How to Hot Rod a Big Block Chevy book? I learned a lot from that book when I ported my old oval ports. It actually gives info that's useful for all types of heads.

Yes and No. There will be great in sight and years or experiance put into easily understood words. You don't have to listen if you feel you have nothing to learn.:p

I'm going to go over basics and the big NO NOs. :D

Glenn as a teacher, that is a scary thought.:laugh: I like to live life on the edge though so I will sign up for the class.

I'd love to see it but Phil and I are going to be swapping the engine in his Jimmy.

Actually, I have done TECH classes here at CI for years.:smack:

Well, I was looking forward to anything you might want to add or comment on.

It won't be untill we get back from the cruise. Love to see you there.:drink:

What time will that be? Maybe he and I can head over there later.

Sean is thinking 6 to 6:30 but that will probably be later. I'll wait untill everyone is done eating. But, we're assuming other people are interested.:huh:

I won't be here at work tomarrow. So I won't be able to get on here. Sean, Ben call me if you have any questions.


I will need a good size pad and somehting to draw with. I'm assuming that people are interested. If they are not, no biggie.:drink:

PM sent.

Heads Purchased.

One thing, didn't include rockers like I thought, but still seems like a good, or at least fair deal over all.

Q: What kind of cam does this engine have in it, I forgot?

Q: Can/should we reuse the rockers from the stock heads? If so what was the stud size? OR, should I just bite the bullet and get a set of aluminum roller rockers for $159?

We saved quite a bit of money on the original car and will save some more because Ron will be building the cage, so I thought it made sense to use the savings and splurge a bit on the heads within reason. Now I'm somewhat back in el cheapo mode. :smack:

Cool!!!!!!


Can you bring them (one)to the cruise?? I have a valve spring (very old) tool and we could pull a couple of valves.:drink:

I won't have the new heads until next Wednesday or so. We could pull the stock heads if that's what you meant.

BTW, what about the rockers yo?

I meant the New heads. Yes, we can use the old rockers. Bring a few with you. Let me see them just to be sure.:drink:

Carb
 

Glenn, did you say you had a carb that could be used, or know where we could get one that would be appropriate on the cheap? I'm assuming we could get a used one, and somebody here could rebuild it and set it up for our purpose.