I didn't buy my trucks for performance needs, neither my mustangs. They certainly didnt suit what I wanted them to do out of the box. Even slightly.

This is my only real objection, you're attempting an objective argument with subjective terms. Fast is an impression or experience of speed, not a measurement of speed. You're assuming we agree on the scope and nature of a subjective term. That no worky so good unless we happen to agree, which we kind of don't, but you seemed to have assumed we would maybe.

Basically you're telling us what you think, not "what is." The first clue is an interrogative sentence ending with an exclamation point!


Uhh, cuz they think it does . . .which is well understand by manufacturers and marketers.

If you insist on answering a question asked to someone else at least answer the question asked. There are a million reasons why you didn't buy the vehicle you are struggling stating why you did. Whatever reason you purchased your truck, you for sure got a tune on it and started modifying it. When I met you, you were jabbering about how bad ass it was.

Roger all. Understand that you have wanted a fox before you new what was fast.That makes sense.

Sadly, I parted with it a couple of months ago and not by my choice :(

I now rely on others for any speed.

But I didn't buy it because it was intended to be fast. I bought it because it wasn't a dually, it was a better suspension design, smoother ride, quieter/nicer interior, better fuel economy, and most importantly not a dually. The fact that I was able to break traction at the 1000' mark was a bonus. Badass, sure. Still would be if I had a place to put my lift to fix it, since I don't, just another paper weight.

Again, bought my car cause I wanted that car. I had no knowledge of the engine, transmission, horsepower, interior. I was 4-5 years old and liked the car. Through my own experience I learned how much of a piece of shit the car was and what it needed to perform. Wait, scratch that. Internet told me what I needed to do, wait scratch that, bought them this way.

I told you what I think and the basis why I think that way. The problem is that Manufactures and marketeers understand that people are stupid. So they are selling shitboxes and fools think they are fast.

i don't think it's the auto manufacturers as much as people are stupd. all it takes is one youtube video of a car beating a termi or a vette for a car to be labeled fast regardless of the circumstances. I'm with you completely. I think the BRZ/FRS is a piece of shit and it got spanked by a 4 door non ecoboost focus in a test race. But it goes both ways too, there are cars that are fast that no one recognizes.

End of the day there will always be people running theirs mouths, or their cars. Just gotta make sure its the latter.

This is what led me to believe you were trying make a defensible point as opposed to express an opinion.

"What car do you think is fast!

Here is what I don't get. How people think some cars are fast. "

As for manufacturers, marketers, and "stupid" people they are doing and getting what they want. You can't really make interpersonal comparisons of utility very well. It would be interesting to know how many people REGRET their purchase on grounds of "it ain't as fast as I thought it would be."


BTW, ever seen an Ariel Atom or Caterham (Lotus 7 knockoff), or any Lotus for that matter? I would think they would all be pretty fast on a track, especially tighter more technical ones.

Uh, that's pretty much what he said. :huh:

Sorta, there are plenty of cars that are labeled as "fast" that were never intended to be as such. And vice versa.

What I was getting at is it seems that Domestics are the benchmark for comparing vehicles. A new car comes out and it's immediately compared to domestic options

I haven't seen an Ariel Atom in person but I've run faster times then both a Caterham and a supercharged Lotus Elise at a CSW autocross. I'm not sure about the Caterham but the Elise could have been faster with a different driver. The owner was a really nice guy though and let Phil and I sit in the car. I was surprised how much room there was for such a little car. Even at 6'5" Phil had plenty of room. It was also one of the most beautiful Elises I've ever seen. It looked a lot like this one with a splitter and wing.

I've seen Atoms at the track they were ok. Disclaimer is that I haven't seen the V8 atom.

Elise's are fast. I have a nice video at the roval with a 211 it was fast. They are faster than I am at the smaller tracks (really only buttonwillow).

Caterhams are fast. They are a dark horse because you never know what you're going to get. At Buttonwillow or the streets they pretty much dominate. They run with the Radicals.

I am not super fast at buttonwillow since I kinda stopped going. I'm planning of making some trips there since it puts a lot less strain on the car.

The V8 Atom looks completely insane. Until very recently it had the fastest ET on Top Gear, which is now held by a Pagani Huyara. The Huyara is only about 1 second slower than the Aston Martin Lemans race car from a few years back!

I've never seen a Radical in the states. Unlike the UK, I think it's impossible for them to be street legal, though I don't know who would want to. The Caterham and Atom look like they'd be ok to drive on the streets at least in small amounts.

What about a Noble? They have all the parameters for being fast. I know you've mentioned GTM as being all around similar to Vettes right?

Their are actually a lot of radicals in the states. They are a fast and relatively affordable track car. GTM, Nobles, the new superlite are all the same. They are about on par with a track only vette. All of the kit cars vary greatly depending on how much $$$$ was dropped into them. Could be an LS2 COuld be a TT C5R block.

I have seen a noble at the track and the GTM. GTM was faster noble was slower than my car. The GTM was an actual race car though.

So, Carlos shows up to a Phoenix International Raceway and there are

Vettes
GTRs
GT3s
GTMs
Nobles
Atoms
Elises
Caterhams
Evos

Without knowing anymore than makes and models, based on past experience, who would you pick as the likely No. 1 for ET?

Phoenix International Raceway doesn't have drag racing and it's much tighter than the Roval so:

1) GT3 RS 4.0 / Caterham
2) GTR
3) Regular GT3
4)Vette
5)Atom / Noble / GTM
6) Evo

If this was Drag racing:

1) GTR
2) Vette
3) GTM
4) Everyone else doesn't matter.

You would know who is serious pretty quickly even before the cars hit the track based on mods though.

The GTM really seems like a great total performance value. For well under $50k in you can be stomping around pretty good at the track and strip. Look pretty cool too. Though you can get a C6Z in great condition for well under $50k too.

I would to with the c6z just because it's a known quantity. I will say that if you want to go racing the GTM is awesome because it comes with a NASA cert cage

are you falling project 818 at all? that looks like it might be an extreme high value track car.

All new sports cars are fast. Yours is just fucking ridic.

What Civic on here is faster than Rons Chevelle? And is it street/ strip or strictly drag?

False. The C6 weighs as much as your Eclipse, maybe less.

When you look at American MUSCLE, they are all fast. They're all in the 12s and 13s nowadays. When you look at Jap sports cars, a few of them are fast, in the 13s, but I can think of only one that's faster. And unless you go AWD, the FWD ruins the car.

I mean, my mom's SRT4 is a fun car no doubt about it. And I had fun driving my friends turbo avenger this last weekend (FWD eclipse motor) but neither of them would ever be able to hang with anything RWD on a race track.

And I can't think of any Jap cars other than the Evo, STI, and the GTR that are anything but FWD.

And as far as a Civic being fast. It will never be as fast as an EQUIVALENTLY tuned muscle car. Why? Because thrice as much displacement is a good thing.

Sure, compare a trailered stripped down Civic with slicks on the front and a 10K race motor to a street/ strip muscle car and the Civic may be faster and in the 9s. But an equally ridiculous GNX or Nova will be in the 7s or 8s.

Strictly drag. Paul Ho's 1994 Civic. Runs 9s > 150mph. Saw it myself, though I didn't catch it on video. Here's a slow run. .

x2.

Figured. Then it's not really fair to compare it to Ron's street driven Chevelle. Compare it to that GNX we saw in the high 7s low 8s at Fontana.

Um, I'm the lawyer here you logical prick.

I didn't know it was that Civic, i've seen it a ton of times, in my neighborhood too I think.

:popcorn:

It will be. A lot will depend on what motor mods are done. Subarus have asthmatic top ends.

Lawyer logic:rolleyes:! By your "lawyer Logic the BRZ is fast from the factory. The Veloster is fast (pretty sure the veloster is powered by the souls of aborted fetuses).

My car is not ridiculous. I put a lot of work to make sure of that. I runs straight, true, and most importantly does exactly what you tell it (at least before the last batch of mods). I do think it's fast, why because the work required to make use of the power it makes has been done and when I take it to the track it's one of the top performing cars.

You corvette is crazier than mine (slower too:nutkick:). You have way more power and WAY less tire, brake, and suspension. :censored: nuts.

You wanna race? LS3 stroker versus procharged 383?

Adam, what kind of law are you practicing? I'm taking the LSAT in October. Thinking of doing intellectual property law.

I meant crazy as in, your car is a street driven indy car. Ha. Crazy in a good way! Your Corvette is super-car humbling, and it has fucked up your perception of what is fast.

The BRZ is NOT a sports car. It's an economy car. It's not a sports car unless it makes power.

Sure we can race if you want, but from a roll in a straight line :) ...unless you found some slicks for me :D It would be a waste of time to do anything else I'm sure. My car is stiff as shit, and handles a lot better than most people realize, but I know it wouldn't keep up with a purpose built C6. A better race would be you versus me, me driving your car, you driving mine... give you the handicap :)

I'll send you a PM

And I wouldn't say that I have way more power. You are in 600hp territory ya?

Yes. I have a batch of repairs and mods that are just finishing up. I hope to get to the dyno soon. I really just want to make sure AF is right and the motor is ready for the track.

Can't believe I forgot the ACR Viper. That oughtta be fast on both track and strip and street legal from the factory for a very competitive overall price. You see many of them?

Just buy an LM2 and weld in an exhaust bung. That way you can map out the rpm with the afr in real world conditions and temperatures.

Winning. 97 GTSR. I will own one from that gen someday.

ACR's are the shit. They are the fastest street car on a road course out of the box. IMO at least. They are a big reason why I went with the KW coilovers.

I've only seen fast supras at Fontana. Every Supra I saw there was deep in the 10s.