Engine Managment / Tuning

[BlacknBoostn]

I'm toying with some ideas of tuning my car myself when I'm prepared to hit the 400 mark... I'm lookin for some good books and good resources about engine tuning, maps, AFR etc.

For the time being I'm going to run a Mopar Stage 3 Power Control Module, but that may only be good for about 360whp with my added bolt ons.. I don't plan on using any type of an electronic boost controller until that goal is in sight. with the Stage 3 or AGP WGA I don't really need to anyhow. Should be able to be set to 23lbs of boost. The PCM will keep the car within a safe mopar factory tune until I'm ready to hit my real numbers..

Ok so:

Books and Resources guys!!!

I want to learn all I can about tuning and engine management

For those of you who would like me to explain my plan for power in full detail post up and then I'll type it up.. Too lazy right now!

[enkeivette]

Sure, up the jet size or install smaller high speed air bleeds till... oh wait. I mean swap out the dist springs and bushings to the... oh wait. Hahahahaha.

Don't have much advice for you other than to shoot for 12.5:1 with a boosted engine WOT, 14:1 or maybe even higher while cruising is ok. But you prob knew that. PM cornfed a link to this thread, he should be able to help a lot.

Sooo... what's your plan for power? :D

[SeanPlunk]

Sure, up the jet size or install smaller high speed air bleeds till... oh wait. I mean swap out the dist springs and bushings to the... oh wait. Hahahahaha.

Don't have much advice for you other than to shoot for 12.5:1 with a boosted engine WOT, 14:1 or maybe even higher while cruising is ok. But you prob knew that. PM cornfed a link to this thread, he should be able to help a lot.

Sooo... what's your plan for power? :D

One bit of correction. For a boosted engine, you want it to be no higher than 12:1. Anything over that is risky. I'd aim for the 11.7-11.8 range myself.

[BlacknBoostn]

One bit of correction. For a boosted engine, you want it to be no higher than 12:1. Anything over that is risky. I'd aim for the 11.7-11.8 range myself.

See I know very minimul about tuning and AFR.. This is information I need in order to be able to effectively tune my car.. I will definitely be keeping it a fairly safe tune (my DD). I'm going to look and find out where I can get higher octane fuel. Right now I run 91 from Chevron. Looking for 93-100 possibilities.

I want something to educate myself on combustion, timing, AFR and how to tune.

The plan for power as it sits now is:

400whp

Essentially I'm piecing together my own stage 3 kit using aftermarket parts and rebuilt and improved factory parts. Found an rebuilt turbo that made 390, stage one with boltons and supporting hardware. This is a remachined factory turbo.. the reason I'm choosing this instead of a big wheel for the time being is because of the spool time. 2200RPMS fully spooled.

I will be upgrading everything in good order:

suspension
tires/rims
intercooler + piping / intake / 3in turbo back exhaust
Transmission
Brakes
SST Turbo and bolton S3 kit (my own concoction of parts)
S3 PCM + WGA
Engine Mounts + traction bars
Roll Cage

To be continued...

[94cobra69ss396]

If you want to keep it steetable do two seperate tunes. One for pump gas with lower boost and timing and one for race fuel (I would use a minimum of 100 octane). This is what I have done to the Cobra except I have OBD1 so I have a toggle switch to change between the tunes. I run 6 degrees initial timing on pump gas and bump it to 14 degrees on the race tune with a 50/50 mix of VP110 and 91 pump.

Trust me in the fact that you don't want to have to run race fuel all the time. The Cobra is my daily driver and the original tune was suppose to have 10 degrees of initial timing but it was detonating so I had to back it down to 6 to stop it.

[BlacknBoostn]

If you want to keep it steetable do two seperate tunes. One for pump gas with lower boost and timing and one for race fuel (I would use a minimum of 100 octane). This is what I have done to the Cobra except I have OBD1 so I have a toggle switch to change between the tunes. I run 6 degrees initial timing on pump gas and bump it to 14 degrees on the race tune with a 50/50 mix of VP110 and 91 pump.

Trust me in the fact that you don't want to have to run race fuel all the time. The Cobra is my daily driver and the original tune was suppose to have 10 degrees of initial timing but it was detonating so I had to back it down to 6 to stop it.

Ugh yes, I feel ya there. I've already mentioned in another thread that I'll have multiple levels of tune for daily and track.

don't know much about timing though... so if you have a book or a good resource that i could read up on it that'd be awesome

[enkeivette]

Ugh yes, I feel ya there. I've already mentioned in another thread that I'll have multiple levels of tune for daily and track.

don't know much about timing though... so if you have a book or a good resource that i could read up on it that'd be awesome

Timing is going to be engine specific. Basically you want as much timing as possible, as soon as possible, without detonation. I have no idea how much advance the 2.4T likes.

As an example a SBC typically runs best with 36 total (some even go as high as 44), while a GM 3.8T (GN motor) likes to see about 28 max (from what I remember). Two 90 degree engines from the same maker, similar power in stock form, nealry 10 degrees off total.

94 Cobra runs 6 initial on 91, while I run about 18 initial on 91. Both centrifugal supercharged H&C V8s, and over 10 degrees off initial. Timing is one specific question for an experienced SRT4 tuner.

[enkeivette]

By the way if you want to play around with timing, a lot of guys run a detonation/ knock light. I set my motor up for a knock sensor, and bought a TurboXS Knocklite a few months ago (also works as a shift light) but it doesn't work for my motor. It's supposed to be universal but realistically it was meant for smaller engines, Evos and SRT4s, etc. My engine has too much lope and makes too much damn noise for this thing to work, it shows that there is knock when there isn't on my engine even with the sensitivity adjusted all the way down.

If you want it make me an offer. :D Otherwise I'll keep it just as a shift light.

Either way, don't bump it up without a reliable recommendation or a knocklite. Detonation is often the cause of cracked pistons and blocks in boosted motors.

[94cobra69ss396]

He already has a knock sensor and the tuning software should allow him to see how much timing the ECU pulls if he has too much timing. At least that is how my friends software works on his GTO.

As for how much timing to run it differs for every engine. It also depends on weather, fuel, engine temp, etc. I didn't tune my Cobra so I don't know what the timing curve is. I can tell you that when I take it back to the tuner to have another tune done for the meth injection I'm going to have him pull 4 degrees of timing out starting at 3800 rpms. That way I can run 10 degrees base instead of 6 (the car has much better low speed throttle response with 10) and it won't detonate. I don't have a knock sensor with OBD1 so I have to get out of it if I hear it ping.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont freakin ever tune ur car to 12.5:1 afr on 91oct or even race gas

and dont even shoot for 12.1:1 afr JESUS u guys are gonna make him blow up his engine!!!

shoot for on 91oct 11:1- 11.3afr
on 93-95oct shoot for 11.3:1-11.5:1afr
on 100oct or up too c16 or even meth injection shoot for 12:1

and 30-40 timing advance is way toooooo much at his WOT he will detonate all over the place.

dude if you want..when ever you get your tuning equipment ill stand over ur shoulder and tell u wat too do. the srt-4 engine is close to the evo engine in tuning so its not too foriegn for me to give you a hand lol.

[BlacknBoostn]

He already has a knock sensor and the tuning software should allow him to see how much timing the ECU pulls if he has too much timing. At least that is how my friends software works on his GTO.

As for how much timing to run it differs for every engine. It also depends on weather, fuel, engine temp, etc. I didn't tune my Cobra so I don't know what the timing curve is. I can tell you that when I take it back to the tuner to have another tune done for the meth injection I'm going to have him pull 4 degrees of timing out starting at 3800 rpms. That way I can run 10 degrees base instead of 6 (the car has much better low speed throttle response with 10) and it won't detonate. I don't have a knock sensor with OBD1 so I have to get out of it if I hear it ping.

I don't have any software yet, no knock sensor either (other than the factory CEL code.) all will be coming.. the e boost controler will have a knock sensor

[BlacknBoostn]

NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont freakin ever tune ur car to 12.5:1 afr on 91oct or even race gas

and dont even shoot for 12.1:1 afr JESUS u guys are gonna make him blow up his engine!!!

shoot for on 91oct 11:1- 11.3afr
on 93-95oct shoot for 11.3:1-11.5:1afr
on 100oct or up too c16 or even meth injection shoot for 12:1

and 30-40 timing advance is way toooooo much at his WOT he will detonate all over the place.

dude if you want..when ever you get your tuning equipment ill stand over ur shoulder and tell u wat too do. the srt-4 engine is close to the evo engine in tuning so its not too foriegn for me to give you a hand lol.

That'd be rad basically. I really want to learn how to do this. I feel confident that I can tune my car myself and I'd love to do it. I'll be callin you when I'm ready!

[94cobra69ss396]

I don't have any software yet, no knock sensor either (other than the factory CEL code.) all will be coming.. the e boost controler will have a knock sensor

Your car does have a factory knock sensor and the PCM will make adjustments (retard timing) if it receives input from it.

[enkeivette]

He already has a knock sensor and the tuning software should allow him to see how much timing the ECU pulls if he has too much timing. At least that is how my friends software works on his GTO.

As for how much timing to run it differs for every engine. It also depends on weather, fuel, engine temp, etc. I didn't tune my Cobra so I don't know what the timing curve is. I can tell you that when I take it back to the tuner to have another tune done for the meth injection I'm going to have him pull 4 degrees of timing out starting at 3800 rpms. That way I can run 10 degrees base instead of 6 (the car has much better low speed throttle response with 10) and it won't detonate. I don't have a knock sensor with OBD1 so I have to get out of it if I hear it ping.

I know he already has a knock sensor. I'm talking about a knocklite.

Didn't see that he had tuning software. If so, and if it shows how much timing the engine has pulled, that would be cool and he should be good without one.

I bought one because I have loud exhaust, and didn't think I'd be able to hear knock until it was serious.

Cornfed, I wouldn't base the timing on an Evo setup at all. That sounds scary to me. Different head design, different compression, different timing. Everything else, have it your way. I've heard of 1st gen SBCs losing power below 12:1, even below 12.5:1. I was told that 12:1 would be better for a boosted SBC.

In fact, I think Ben's H&C LS1 was around 14:1 WOT, but I could be wrong. :huh:

[enkeivette]

Boostn, I'm almost positive that you have a knock sensor already. It's more likely that you'd be installing a second one made to work with the tuning software specifically. I'll bet if you read the fine print that it will specify certain factory Bosch sensors that it will also be compatible with. If you don't mind splicing into your factory harness.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

I know he already has a knock sensor. I'm talking about a knocklite.

Didn't see that he had tuning software. If so, and if it shows how much timing the engine has pulled, that would be cool and he should be good without one.

I bought one because I have loud exhaust, and didn't think I'd be able to hear knock until it was serious.

Cornfed, I wouldn't base the timing on an Evo setup at all. That sounds scary to me. Different head design, different compression, different timing. Everything else, have it your way. I've heard of 1st gen SBCs losing power below 12:1, even below 12.5:1. I was told that 12:1 would be better for a boosted SBC.

In fact, I think Ben's H&C LS1 was around 14:1 WOT, but I could be wrong. :huh:

well for fuel NA motors can actually hit the 12.5:1afr which is the most ideal power to fuel afr for ever car application but boosted application cant hit that especially boosted aluminum blocks. also it depends on his compression ration and the lower u get the harder it is to hit that mark, which is y NA higher compression motors can do that all day.

also the 14.1afr on bens car re-ask him and confirm because that counds insane to me and seems more like a cruising or idleing afr, then again i know ive never dabbled in NA motors but i know for a fact that 12.5:1afr is the most perfect afr for power to fuel. and anything above that at wot would be too lean.

also as for the timing issue with boost you lower timing thats always the most general rule of thumb

IE- stock evo @ 3500rpm @ 19-20psi is around 8 degrees
while @ 7000rpm @ 14-15psi is around 11-14 degree

from the factory when the boost is lower they upped the timing, subie sti timing looks the same as well.

i believe i read on an earlier post on hear somone stating they where runing more timing on his NA set up then on his boosted set up he runs less.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

That'd be rad basically. I really want to learn how to do this. I feel confident that I can tune my car myself and I'd love to do it. I'll be callin you when I'm ready!

ya dude just give me a jingle when ever. i also got a portable wideband o2 sensor so hopefully next week i can start tuning all evo's from evo5's too evo 10's and sti's :-D finally i can start making some money after being laid off :-(

[big_G]

That'd be rad basically. I really want to learn how to do this. I feel confident that I can tune my car myself and I'd love to do it. I'll be callin you when I'm ready!

I put a F.A.S.T. system together a few weeks ago for my ProCharged 383 'Vette. I enjoy the tuning on the laptop and seeing the v/e tables change and the tune work. Still got a few bugs to work out, but the lower end torque is much improved. It's nice to change the tune without getting gasoline all over the place....

[94cobra69ss396]

well for fuel NA motors can actually hit the 12.5:1afr which is the most ideal power to fuel afr for ever car application but boosted application cant hit that especially boosted aluminum blocks. also it depends on his compression ration and the lower u get the harder it is to hit that mark, which is y NA higher compression motors can do that all day.

also the 14.1afr on bens car re-ask him and confirm because that counds insane to me and seems more like a cruising or idleing afr, then again i know ive never dabbled in NA motors but i know for a fact that 12.5:1afr is the most perfect afr for power to fuel. and anything above that at wot would be too lean.

also as for the timing issue with boost you lower timing thats always the most general rule of thumb

IE- stock evo @ 3500rpm @ 19-20psi is around 8 degrees
while @ 7000rpm @ 14-15psi is around 11-14 degree

from the factory when the boost is lower they upped the timing, subie sti timing looks the same as well.

i believe i read on an earlier post on hear somone stating they where runing more timing on his NA set up then on his boosted set up he runs less.

On a N/A engine anywhere between 12.5:1 to 12.8:1 will make the most power. Also, you are correct that you will run more timing on a N/A engine than a boosted one. On the Chevelle I have 40 degrees (use to be 36 with the Mallory box but had to up it to 40 to get the same mph with the MSD POS) all in by 3000 rpms. Again, I don't know what the Cobra has but I read on other forums from guys who tuned their own boosted Stangs anywhere from 16-20 depending on the amount of boost. I'm also assuming that on a car like my Cobra with a centrifugal blower that you would be able to add more timing at lower rpms and then back it down as the boost climbs. This would give you more torque at lower rpms and also keep it from detonating in the upper rpms. A turbo car would be a whole different story because you have full boost at a lower rpm.

[SeanPlunk]

I know he already has a knock sensor. I'm talking about a knocklite.

Didn't see that he had tuning software. If so, and if it shows how much timing the engine has pulled, that would be cool and he should be good without one.

I bought one because I have loud exhaust, and didn't think I'd be able to hear knock until it was serious.

Cornfed, I wouldn't base the timing on an Evo setup at all. That sounds scary to me. Different head design, different compression, different timing. Everything else, have it your way. I've heard of 1st gen SBCs losing power below 12:1, even below 12.5:1. I was told that 12:1 would be better for a boosted SBC.

In fact, I think Ben's H&C LS1 was around 14:1 WOT, but I could be wrong. :huh:

NONONONONO, Cornfed is right. 12.5:1 on a boosted car is WAY too lean (maybe carb. cars are different Enkei?). The leanest my car goes is 11.7:1. Steve, 11:1 would actually be too rich on a Cobra. Evo's may be different, but 11.5-11.8 seems to be the accepted range you want to be in for supercharged domestic cars (I know Cobras and most LS1's are in that range generally). I'm not sure how much timing the Cobra is running at WOT though.

[SeanPlunk]

Here is a thread from SRT forums (http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f10/correct-air-fuel-ratios-468421/), they say the mid 11's is the place to be. Here is another and they say the same thing I am (http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f10/safe-air-fuel-ratio-467503/), somewhere between 11.7-11.9 at WOT.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

good info on the srt-4, also im curious if 94cobra could get the timing and arf info on the 2004-2005 cobra's im interested in know what they run

also 94cobra timing for turbo cars isnt too hard to get down u just have to visualize your turbo boost curve and build your fuel and timing around that curve.

like

rpm 1k 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k
boost 0psi 5psi 15psi 30psi 30psi 28psi 26psi
thottle 100% 100%100%100% 100% 100% 100%
timing adv 15* 13* 9* 6* 7* 12* 18*

the above is is an example of my e85 tune but as you can see when full boost hits at 30psi the timing gets cut by alot!! but towards the end you can keep up the power curve by compensating the dropping psi with timing advance to give you a flat or elivated power curve

[BlacknBoostn]

Boostn, I'm almost positive that you have a knock sensor already. It's more likely that you'd be installing a second one made to work with the tuning software specifically. I'll bet if you read the fine print that it will specify certain factory Bosch sensors that it will also be compatible with. If you don't mind splicing into your factory harness.

Staged SRT4s w/toys have knock sensors... stage 0 and stage 1 do not have one that I am aware of. I will definitely need something along those lines at some point.

I repeat... I have NO TUNING SOFTWARE. Just making that extra clea. I need to learn about tuning before I actually try this. And obviously not on my stock car lol. I want lots of information

[94cobra69ss396]

Staged SRT4s w/toys have knock sensors... stage 0 and stage 1 do not have one that I am aware of. I will definitely need something along those lines at some point.

I repeat... I have NO TUNING SOFTWARE. Just making that extra clea. I need to learn about tuning before I actually try this. And obviously not on my stock car lol. I want lots of information

Okay, I know you don't currently have tuning software. What I am telling you is that your car from the factory has a knock sensor. So when you get tuning software you will not need to get a different one because you already have one and you will be able to see if the PCM pulls timing out due to knock.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

Staged SRT4s w/toys have knock sensors... stage 0 and stage 1 do not have one that I am aware of. I will definitely need something along those lines at some point.

I repeat... I have NO TUNING SOFTWARE. Just making that extra clea. I need to learn about tuning before I actually try this. And obviously not on my stock car lol. I want lots of information

ya dude just about every car out there now a days works off the stock knock sensor for any kind of tuning, ive never heard on one being swapped out for an aftermarket one but im sure the stock one on an srt-4 is what they would use when logging there cars.

know im not 100% sure on this but if someone can confirm it would help lol.

im pretty sure the knock sensor is in the engine block itself, i was looking at both my blown motors and noticed this sensor shoved in between cylinder 2 and 3 in the middle of the block and im thinking thats the knock sensor. anywho moral of the story im pretty sure u dont need an aftermarket one and i didnt even know they sold an aftermarket one.

[BlacknBoostn]

ya dude just about every car out there now a days works off the stock knock sensor for any kind of tuning, ive never heard on one being swapped out for an aftermarket one but im sure the stock one on an srt-4 is what they would use when logging there cars.

know im not 100% sure on this but if someone can confirm it would help lol.

im pretty sure the knock sensor is in the engine block itself, i was looking at both my blown motors and noticed this sensor shoved in between cylinder 2 and 3 in the middle of the block and im thinking thats the knock sensor. anywho moral of the story im pretty sure u dont need an aftermarket one and i didnt even know they sold an aftermarket one.

If I have a knock sensor any1 have any idea how I can find out about it, hell if I have one i wouldn't even know how to tell if it was going off lol? I'm sure it's there but i've never heard any reference to a knock sensor except for the staged w/toys kits

Oh, and the no tuning software was mostly just to clarify that.. Enkeivette seemed to get a little excited about tuning haha. Not happening for a while.

[BADDASSC6]

We'll the safes way to get this done is to get a

1) Get a wide band o2 sensor
2) Get a EGT (exhasut gas temperature) gauge
3) A good tuner that allows you to data log

I only tuned one car in my life myself, but is was a formula SAE car (600 cc honda F4I motor on E83 Garret GT-25 turbo 18mm convergent divergent restrictor custom made manifolds).

My buddy Dennis used a hondata to tune it. THe F4I controller was used withford racing fuel injectors.

Fired it up with the factory map increased 50% to account for the e85. We drove it around the block adjusting the fuel to make it drivable (no boost). We had it rich 11.0 when we started getting into enough throttle for the turbo to kick in. In order to get the fuel map where it needed to be without hurting the motor we pulled alot of timming out the data logger helps because it will let you slow down and analyze the information. Ounce we had the fuel about right. We took the car to a local Tucson shop that donated dyno time and help. On the dyno they leaned the fuel until the EGT got to about 980F. THe temperature in hte combustion chamber is the real parameter that you are trying to control when you set the A/F ratio. When that's set then you can add timing. don't wait for the factory knock indication because sometimes it a dampened system and might be slow to give you an indication. I will pull timing quickly, but it can still cause damage if you don't realize whats going on. THis was a bit of over kill, but it is a tight competition and we wanted to get the most out of our design.


I'm sure there is some tunning software for the SRT 4 it's worth getting hte car specific tuner. Alot of time they have websites where they share tunes. Find one with a similar set-up and use it as a starting point. AEM has a replacement ECU which is expensive, but worth it. It will virtually tune the car for you.

[enkeivette]

If I have a knock sensor any1 have any idea how I can find out about it, hell if I have one i wouldn't even know how to tell if it was going off lol? I'm sure it's there but i've never heard any reference to a knock sensor except for the staged w/toys kits

Oh, and the no tuning software was mostly just to clarify that.. Enkeivette seemed to get a little excited about tuning haha. Not happening for a while.

That's why some people run a knocklite, cuz it will detect slight knock before there is serious detonation. But hopefully your comp would pull timing when it detects knock, hopefully. :D

I'd bet money that you have a knock sensor. I'd bet money that MY Neon has a knock sensor. Slide under your car and scope it out. A knock sensor looks like a little plastic and metal UFO, about 2" in diameter. It will most likely be in the block on the side, not the head, and will screw into a drain plug hole. It will likely have one wire coming out of it. While you're under there, if you see Bosch and some numbers printed on it, jot it down. You may find that it is compatiable with tuning software that you might buy in the future.

Also, MSD makes a "Boost timing master" I think it's called. Pulls timing as boost increases. You can adjust it to start at a certain boost level, and pull so many degrees for each pound. Only necessary if you want to squeeze every last bit of hp out of your setup. But this might also be something that's unnecessary, from what Corn Fed is saying, sound like you could set it all up with an aftermarket ECM.


Also, I think SRT4s have iron blocks, or maybe something else, but I don't think that they're aluminum.

[st-evo-9*corn fed-8urvet*]

That's why some people run a knocklite, cuz it will detect slight knock before there is serious detonation. But hopefully your comp would pull timing when it detects knock, hopefully. :D

I'd bet money that you have a knock sensor. I'd bet money that MY Neon has a knock sensor. Slide under your car and scope it out. A knock sensor looks like a little plastic and metal UFO, about 2" in diameter. It will most likely be in the block on the side, not the head, and will screw into a drain plug hole. It will likely have one wire coming out of it. While you're under there, if you see Bosch and some numbers printed on it, jot it down. You may find that it is compatiable with tuning software that you might buy in the future.

Also, MSD makes a "Boost timing master" I think it's called. Pulls timing as boost increases. You can adjust it to start at a certain boost level, and pull so many degrees for each pound. Only necessary if you want to squeeze every last bit of hp out of your setup. But this might also be something that's unnecessary, from what Corn Fed is saying, sound like you could set it all up with an aftermarket ECM.


Also, I think SRT4s have iron blocks, or maybe something else, but I don't think that they're aluminum.

you might be right on the block being iron but im sure the heads aluminum, as for tuning for real i think he should go with the sct flash method for his srt-4 only if an ams ems is to expensive and complicated for him.

here are my reasons for suggesting those options

1. sct has alot of srt info and support on the srt forums and it also works of your stock ecu or pcm or watever you wanna call it, and its pretty much turning your stock ecu into a stand alone.

2. the aem ems has world wide support because its everywhere, and any pro tuner whos knowledge is worth the amount the charge will know how to use this. and it has literally endless freakin options for your car, also AEM give customer support to anyone who bought there system and they also give you or make available a class course where they teach you how to innitially use the AEM EMS. the only hard part of using the aem unit is the initial setting up a base tune to actually turn on your car and creat a starting point, and the fact that it works off speed density which is a concept i have yet to understand but am currently trying to grasp my brain around it.

[enkeivette]

Yeah the head is Al for sure.