Best American Sedan Ever?

[SeanPlunk]

I submit as my nomination the current Cadillac CTS-V.

556hp
551ft/lb
RWD
Really good Manual and Automatic Transmissions
Great Looking (although I prefer the looks of the base model to the V), nice interior and by all accounts fantastic to drive.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/09/09-ctsv-first-drive-1280-99_opt.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/08/2009_Cadillac_CTS-V_burnout.JPG
http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/96667/2009-cadillac-cts-v-02.jpg

What do you guys think? Agree, or disagree?

[Leedom]

I can not disagree on this one. I like a lot of what Cadillac is doing. Not just grandpa's car anymore.

[94cobra69ss396]

The CTS-V is a nice car but I have to go with the 2010 SHO.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/02/018_2010taurussho_opt.jpg

[Vettezuki]

The CTS-V is a nice car but I have to go with the 2010 SHO.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/02/018_2010taurussho_opt.jpg

:thumbs_up:

[SeanPlunk]

I love the SHO, but for that money (under 45k) I think I'd rather have a Pontiac G8 GXP.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/11/Pontiac_G8_GXP.jpg

LS3, 415hp, and it weighs in at 3969 (300lbs less than the SHO).

[Damian]

CTS-V for me. I bet they didnt spend near as much time/money developing the suspension in the SHO as they did in the CTS-V.

[Vettezuki]

CTS-V for me. I bet they didnt spend near as much time/money developing the suspension in the SHO as they did in the CTS-V.

Ford fixed their own problems, spends their own money, and honors its commitments to their investors and debt holders. I'd buy a new Ford, you couldn't give me a new GM product, even if it is as awesome as the CTS-V.

[SeanPlunk]

Ford fixed their own problems, spends their own money, and honors its commitments to their investors and debt holders. I'd buy a new Ford, you couldn't give me a new GM product, even if it is as awesome as the CTS-V.

While true, we're judging these cars on an objective level. Having said that I'd go:

1) CTS-V
2) G8 GXP
3) SHO

[Vettezuki]

While true, we're judging these cars on an objective level. Having said that I'd go:

1) CTS-V
2) G8 GXP
3) SHO

Setting aside my vitriolic contempt for GM, I'd agree. (Part of the reason they piss me off so much.)

[SeanPlunk]

Setting aside my vitriolic contempt for GM, I'd agree. (Part of the reason they piss me off so much.)

I understand how you feel. I'm hoping that GM will make good someday so that I can have a used C6 Z06 :thumbs_up:

[Vettezuki]

I understand how you feel. I'm hoping that GM will make good someday so that I can have a used C6 Z06 :thumbs_up:

Me too. I really do. All they have to do for me is make a long term commitment to repaying the treasury (and follow through) and I'm all about GM again.

[SoCalC55]

There is no American 4-Door that can even come close to the CTS in my book, If not for the great looking exterior and retarded performance numbers, it is incredibly comfortable and rides so nice

[heypal]

The CTS-V is a nice car but I have to go with the 2010 SHO.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/02/018_2010taurussho_opt.jpg

what does the new for explore have to do with an american sedan...oh wait thats a car...my bad carry on.

cts v
g8gxp
300c srt8
/thread

fusion with eco boost motor moves up to #3 if built.

[heypal]

There is a family car ie SHO camary, impala, then there is a sport sedan ie ctsv, amg e55(and all other amg 4 door cars)M5, m3 sedan. g8 gxp audi s4 rs4 so on and so on. The Taurus aimed to fly with the eagles but instead is stuck with all the turkeys. FAIL Maybe just maybe they will build a fusion with the eco boost then keep it sub 4000lbs.

But then again they are really trying to sell to the masses and not to the diehard speed freaks. Ford is staying a float not by building outlandish cars like the termi was but by building good quality safe boats. The new mustang MIGHT be good and the raptor are all they have for the performance enthusiast sho not really so much. It will be a fun car for someone but at the end of the day did ford drop the money into r and d like gm did for the g8gxp or the ctsv or bmw or audi or mb. And u might say but Jerry those cars cost a lot more then the taurus which is true but the fit and finish are better on the german counterparts more realible drivetrain and well look a hell of a lot better too. The taurus is going to make a great FAMILY CAR just like the impala did nothing more.

BTW if It seems like I rambled on and misspelled words its cause I'm just getting off work after starting at 8am on monday and have to do it again tomorrow so in ending I don't care if its hard to read.

[BRUTAL64]

They still make 4 door sedans??? Why?





:smack:

[SeanPlunk]

There is a family car ie SHO camary, impala, then there is a sport sedan ie ctsv, amg e55(and all other amg 4 door cars)M5, m3 sedan. g8 gxp audi s4 rs4 so on and so on. The Taurus aimed to fly with the eagles but instead is stuck with all the turkeys. FAIL Maybe just maybe they will build a fusion with the eco boost then keep it sub 4000lbs.

But then again they are really trying to sell to the masses and not to the diehard speed freaks. Ford is staying a float not by building outlandish cars like the termi was but by building good quality safe boats. The new mustang MIGHT be good and the raptor are all they have for the performance enthusiast sho not really so much. It will be a fun car for someone but at the end of the day did ford drop the money into r and d like gm did for the g8gxp or the ctsv or bmw or audi or mb. And u might say but Jerry those cars cost a lot more then the taurus which is true but the fit and finish are better on the german counterparts more realible drivetrain and well look a hell of a lot better too. The taurus is going to make a great FAMILY CAR just like the impala did nothing more.

BTW if It seems like I rambled on and misspelled words its cause I'm just getting off work after starting at 8am on monday and have to do it again tomorrow so in ending I don't care if its hard to read.

I tried to make it through your rambling, but I'm not sure I can do it :surrender:

The SHO is a fantastic car, it's just heavy. I think it's much more than a family car though and certainly much better than something like a base Impala.

[shutter]

There is a family car ie SHO camary, impala, then there is a sport sedan ie ctsv, amg e55(and all other amg 4 door cars)M5, m3 sedan. g8 gxp audi s4 rs4 so on and so on. The Taurus aimed to fly with the eagles but instead is stuck with all the turkeys. FAIL Maybe just maybe they will build a fusion with the eco boost then keep it sub 4000lbs.

But then again they are really trying to sell to the masses and not to the diehard speed freaks. Ford is staying a float not by building outlandish cars like the termi was but by building good quality safe boats. The new mustang MIGHT be good and the raptor are all they have for the performance enthusiast sho not really so much. It will be a fun car for someone but at the end of the day did ford drop the money into r and d like gm did for the g8gxp or the ctsv or bmw or audi or mb. And u might say but Jerry those cars cost a lot more then the taurus which is true but the fit and finish are better on the german counterparts more realible drivetrain and well look a hell of a lot better too. The taurus is going to make a great FAMILY CAR just like the impala did nothing more.

BTW if It seems like I rambled on and misspelled words its cause I'm just getting off work after starting at 8am on monday and have to do it again tomorrow so in ending I don't care if its hard to read.


agree...should have put that engine in the fusion(maybe they will...:pot_stir:)

[SeanPlunk]

After seeing a CTS-V and a beautiful black G8 GXP last night, I definitely think those are the two best American sedans ever built :drink:

[kameleongt]

I was reading the title and those pictures you posted were what was in my head. the gxp is also great

[enkeivette]

http://www.max71.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2009_pontiac_g8_gxp_0_430.jpg

[jedhead]

I spent most of the summer shopping for my new daily driver. I test drove many cars, including the new SHO, G8 GXP, CTS-V, and STS-V for domestics. I thought the new CTS-V was the best of the bunch. I still have tution to pay for my daughters so I had to pass on the new CTS-V. I really liked the G8 GXP but I wanted some more creature comforts and I hated the knob to recline the seat back. The SHO was very impressive and quick (will run 12.7 with some tuning), but I wanted a RWD V8. I could afford the first gen CTS-V and I test drove them. I purchased my STS-V because for about the same price as a 2007 CTS-V I got a more luxurious car (much better materials in the interior). The CTS-V would handle a little better and can be modded for more power than the STS-V, but I thought the STS-V was a nicer car. The STS-V seems to be very rare. I have had mine since August, drove about 6000 miles and I still have not seen another one on the road. Hopefully in about 3 years when I am done with tution payments, I can pick up a nice V2 CTS-V.
I am looking forward to meet you all at a meet.

Bob

[SeanPlunk]

I spent most of the summer shopping for my new daily driver. I test drove many cars, including the new SHO, G8 GXP, CTS-V, and STS-V for domestics. I thought the new CTS-V was the best of the bunch. I still have tution to pay for my daughters so I had to pass on the new CTS-V. I really liked the G8 GXP but I wanted some more creature comforts and I hated the knob to recline the seat back. The SHO was very impressive and quick (will run 12.7 with some tuning), but I wanted a RWD V8. I could afford the first gen CTS-V and I test drove them. I purchased my STS-V because for about the same price as a 2007 CTS-V I got a more luxurious car (much better materials in the interior). The CTS-V would handle a little better and can be modded for more power than the STS-V, but I thought the STS-V was a nicer car. The STS-V seems to be very rare. I have had mine since August, drove about 6000 miles and I still have not seen another one on the road. Hopefully in about 3 years when I am done with tution payments, I can pick up a nice V2 CTS-V.
I am looking forward to meet you all at a meet.

Bob

Great write up - it's interested to see the opinion of someone who has actually driven all those cars. I'm surprised the CTS-V (gen1) can be modded for more power than the STS-V? It seems like with a blown motor it's easier to pull more power out than with a N/A one. What's the limiting factor for power on the STS-V?

[enkeivette]

http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/9200-2006-Cadillac-STS-V-Dyno.jpg

[SeanPlunk]

I actually saw a black STS-V on the 91 on my way home from work today :)

[jedhead]

Great write up - it's interested to see the opinion of someone who has actually driven all those cars. I'm surprised the CTS-V (gen1) can be modded for more power than the STS-V? It seems like with a blown motor it's easier to pull more power out than with a N/A one. What's the limiting factor for power on the STS-V?
The limiting factor is displacement. The Supercharged Northstar is 267ci and outputs over 100hp per liter stock with 12lbs of boost. D3 in Signal Hill has done alot of development on the Supercharged Northstar and 600hp (estimated flywheel hp) is about the limit (about $7000 worth of mods). You can get more hp and torque for less $$$ with a stroker engine and a magnacharger on the LS2. There are so many more options with a small block chevy engine than with the supercharged Northstar. When I was visiting D3, they felt and I agree that Supercharged Northstar won't be developed anymore by GM. D3 was starting to do some R&D on a screw type supercharger, but stopped because they felt that they won't be able to recoup the developement costs.

Bob

[jedhead]

I actually saw a black STS-V on the 91 on my way home from work today :)

Wow I still haven't seen one on the road. I did see a black STS-V at D3 waiting for a dyno tune.
I thought I saw one on the 405 and I banzai weaved to catch up but it was a standard STS with a V grill.

Bob

[Vettezuki]

. . . When I was visiting D3, they felt and I agree that Supercharged Northstar won't be developed anymore by GM. . .

As I recall that's official from GM.

[SeanPlunk]

The limiting factor is displacement. The Supercharged Northstar is 267ci and outputs over 100hp per liter stock with 12lbs of boost. D3 in Signal Hill has done alot of development on the Supercharged Northstar and 600hp (estimated flywheel hp) is about the limit (about $7000 worth of mods). You can get more hp and torque for less $$$ with a stroker engine and a magnacharger on the LS2. There are so many more options with a small block chevy engine than with the supercharged Northstar. When I was visiting D3, they felt and I agree that Supercharged Northstar won't be developed anymore by GM. D3 was starting to do some R&D on a screw type supercharger, but stopped because they felt that they won't be able to recoup the developement costs.

Bob


What a bummer. I mean, the Cobra only has 281ci, but with a twinscrew you can make 600RWHP easily.

[SeanPlunk]

Wow I still haven't seen one on the road. I did see a black STS-V at D3 waiting for a dyno tune.
I thought I saw one on the 405 and I banzai weaved to catch up but it was a standard STS with a V grill.

Bob

I was just looking for a stock STS-V dyno and couldn't find one (although I can't access Cadillac Forum from work). Do you know what they dyno stock?

[jedhead]

I was just looking for a stock STS-V dyno and couldn't find one (although I can't access Cadillac Forum from work). Do you know what they dyno stock?

I was told that the STS-V stock show about 360-370hp on a dynojet. I have seen some videos on youtube that shows the same approximate numbers. I plan on getting the car tuned on a dyno in the future (~$600) to get a little more torque under the curve and quicker and firmer shifting. Sometimes the transmission won't shift quick enough in first to avoid hitting the rev limiter. I have noticed since the weather has been cooler lately the car feels much more powerful than when it was 100 outside. Later I want to try mixing a half a tank of 100 octane to see if there would be a difference.

Bob

[SeanPlunk]

I was told that the STS-V stock show about 360-370hp on a dynojet. I have seen some videos on youtube that shows the same approximate numbers. I plan on getting the car tuned on a dyno in the future (~$600) to get a little more torque under the curve and quicker and firmer shifting. Sometimes the transmission won't shift quick enough in first to avoid hitting the rev limiter. I have noticed since the weather has been cooler lately the car feels much more powerful than when it was 100 outside. Later I want to try mixing a half a tank of 100 octane to see if there would be a difference.

Bob

Is that transmission problem a know issue? That seems like something GM should fix.....

Who are you going to have tune the car? I'm planning on putting together a dyno day in late November. Probably something like $40 for 3 pulls if that interests you.

[SeanPlunk]

I found one!

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=43&pictureid=667

[jedhead]

Is that transmission problem a know issue? That seems like something GM should fix.....

Who are you going to have tune the car? I'm planning on putting together a dyno day in late November. Probably something like $40 for 3 pulls if that interests you.

I would be interested to get a baseline. From what I have been told, tuning this engine and transmission is rather complex and will require multiple dyno runs like 6 or 8. I may know someone who would be interested in a dyno session too if numbers help lower cost.

Bob

[jedhead]

Is that transmission problem a know issue? That seems like something GM should fix.....


I checked and my car has all the latest firmware. The issue with the transmission is with the shifting algorithm which reduces torque between shift to reduce stress to the transmission and differential which leads to slower and softer shifts. I am still doing research on the tuning to confirm that I can have the transmission to behave differently when I change the stability control from normal, sport and competitive modes. Idealy I would leave the transmission alone in normal and remove the torque nannies in sport and competitive modes.

Bob

[SeanPlunk]

Thing were much more simpler in the day when I tuned my small block chevy by ear. Put the lowest weight for dwell in the distributor to quicken the advance and advance the timing until it starts knocking then back off a bit. Of course in those days I was messing with the engine most every weekend tweeking it. It took Mom years to figure out that her Buick Riveria GS was so well taken care of by her sons because we were at OCIR every Wednesday night running the quarter mile.

Bob

LOL, what was it running back then?

[SeanPlunk]

Here is a car with just tuning done and nothing else. Pretty impressive I think:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41204&d=1208301778

[jedhead]

LOL, what was it running back then?

14.7 @97. We always had traction problems. Heavy car, lots of torque, skinny tires makes for tire smoke. My brother baja'ed the Buick in the park were the power lines were in FV. We had to get the same brand of tires so Mom would not get curious.

Bob

[SeanPlunk]

SHO + slight tuning and intake = 12.75@108

YouTube - 2010 SHO

[BRUTAL64]

SHO + slight tuning and intake = 12.75@108

YouTube - 2010 SHO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmALfffgEas)

That was the most boring 12 seconds I've ever seen.:lmfao:

[SeanPlunk]

That was the most boring 12 seconds I've ever seen.:lmfao:

Still impressive though :judge:

[enkeivette]

SHO + slight tuning and intake = 12.75@108

YouTube - 2010 SHO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmALfffgEas)

You've really got a hard-on for this Taurus don't you? It is FWD isn't it?

Admittedly there have been some cool FWD cars, but in a competition for the coolest American sedan ever, it's going to have to be RWD if not AWD.

[SeanPlunk]

You've really got a hard-on for this Taurus don't you? It is FWD isn't it?

Admittedly there have been some cool FWD cars, but in a competition for the coolest American sedan ever, it's going to have to be RWD if not AWD.

It is AWD. I don't have a hard-on for one. It's too heavy for my taste. Having said that, I do think it's impressive seeing a 4500lb(that's what he weighed in at with driver) sedan going 12.75 with minimal mods.

All things being equal I'd rather have a G8 GXP though :thumbs_up:

[enkeivette]

It is AWD. I don't have a hard-on for one. It's too heavy for my taste. Having said that, I do think it's impressive seeing a 4500lb(that's what he weighed in at with driver) sedan going 12.75 with minimal mods.

All things being equal I'd rather have a G8 GXP though :thumbs_up:

4500lbs, damn. Must make a lot of power to run in the 12s. The AWD helps I'll bet.

[jedhead]

4500lbs, damn. Must make a lot of power to run in the 12s. The AWD helps I'll bet.

The last tune bumped the boost by about 4lbs. AWD helps with the launching a lot. You put all the power to the pavement.

Bob

[BRUTAL64]

Still impressive though :judge:

Well, yes...but still boring. Almost depressing.:judge: