Lee vs Brawn

[enkeivette]

Yall we're arguing with me a few years back, saying size won't do much for you if the other person knows how to fight. Well... of course I'd agree that knowing how to fight can be the difference between life or death. But then again, there's a reason fighters have weight classes.


http://thechive.com/2015/11/02/the-mountain-spars-with-ufc-champ-conor-mcgregor-video/

[Vettezuki]

Didn't one of the Gracies routinely beat people way bigger than him in early UFC?

[Shaolin Crane]

Didn't one of the Gracies routinely beat people way bigger than him in early UFC?
That was a long time ago when the UFC "rules" were more like guidlines and he would essentially force all of his opponents into a jon striking grappling match.

I'm not really sure what I just watched. I saw two friends fucking around ar sparring practice. That is hardly sparring. Two trained fighters, not even needing to be equal, the fighter who has beem at his weight the longest will generally have the biggest advantage. The mountain is slow and not a striker and that pretty obvious since he was really grabby even when the were playing. He also does the cardinal sin for guys that size to leave themselves "an in" since they can't cover distance like a smaller person. He extends his lead leg and locks it out, great for giving someone large with low speed the ability to creat a large perimeter that's difficult for small people tonget in. Great for ring or points sparring. But. Leave that thing locked out anywhere else and someone smart will break it, immediately. Number 1 rules to a fair fight, don't fight fair.
Never box a boxer
Never grapple a grappler
Don't fight a Cage fighter with rules

[Vettezuki]

One of my favorite scenes from FF7 is when Vin Diesel tries to ram Jason Stathems character, then gets all butt hurt because his car was reinforced. He said something like, "you thought this was going to be a fair fight. That's your mistake."

And finally, "never bet against another man's game."

Ancient wisdom.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yep, plenty of guys like me that can take shots all day to the face with a smile, but don't fair so well to fingers in the eye, or having an ear or thumb ripped off.

[enkeivette]

Didn't one of the Gracies routinely beat people way bigger than him in early UFC?

And that's notable to you why? Because subconsciously you know it's atypical? :)

[Vettezuki]

And that's notable to you why? Because subconsciously you know it's atypical? :)

No. In a context where the rules are more open, a smaller but significantly more skilled fighter (KEY) can f up a bigger guy. In a constrained rule context except size, the bigger guy has an advantage on average, in a constrained rule and size context, the more skilled guy wins. It's game theory 101. Exactly the same stuff goes on in car racing where they are constantly adjusting rules to "make it competitive".

[Shaolin Crane]

No. In a context where the rules are more open, a smaller but significantly more skilled fighter (KEY) can f up a bigger guy. In a constrained rule context except size, the bigger guy has an advantage on average, in a constrained rule and size context, the more skilled guy wins. It's game theory 101. Exactly the same stuff goes on in car racing where they are constantly adjusting rules to "make it competitive".

Exactly. He would lay on the ground and wait for as long as it took for someone to engage him because certain things can and can't be done. Try and pull that shit in the ring now a days and they make you stand up. Do it in the street and well, you can use your imagination.

[joedls]

Yall we're arguing with me a few years back, saying size won't do much for you if the other person knows how to fight. Well... of course I'd agree that knowing how to fight can be the difference between life or death. But then again, there's a reason fighters have weight classes.


http://thechive.com/2015/11/02/the-mountain-spars-with-ufc-champ-conor-mcgregor-video/

What exactly is the point you're trying to make? That skill doesn't matter if a guy is bigger and stronger? That size and strength will always trump skill? Not sure how that video makes whatever point you're trying to make. Please explain.

[enkeivette]

My point isn't that size trumps skill. My point is that size does matter. I was only defending against the statement that 'size doesn't matter if you know how to fight.'

I aver that beefcake Guy now at 200 lbs would kick Guy's twins ass at 160 lbs. It's hard for me to describe what I mean other than simply arguing that size does matter, at least usually, because it depends on context. Like, in the video, there's a smaller skilled fighter put up against a fictional WWF fighter. The smaller dude obviously is quicker, but skill or no skill, its harder for him to move a tree stump.

So my point isn't that size trumps skill or vice versa, my point is that EVERYTHING matters... we don't live in a box.

[joedls]

My point isn't that size trumps skill. My point is that size does matter. I was only defending against the statement that 'size doesn't matter if you know how to fight.'

I aver that beefcake Guy now at 200 lbs would kick Guy's twins ass at 160 lbs. It's hard for me to describe what I mean other than simply arguing that size does matter, at least usually, because it depends on context. Like, in the video, there's a smaller skilled fighter put up against a fictional WWF fighter. The smaller dude obviously is quicker, but skill or no skill, its harder for him to move a tree stump.

So my point isn't that size trumps skill or vice versa, my point is that EVERYTHING matters... we don't live in a box.

I'm still confused about your point, but I agree that size and strength CAN
matter. But that video only proved to me that the smaller, more skilled guy would have eventually beaten the big guy. The big guy was gassing. The smaller guy would have continued to dance around the big guy, attacked his body when he could, and worn him down until he broke. Then the smaller guy would have gone in for the kill. And the larger guy wouldn't have been able to do much. The problem with being that big and carrying that much muscle is that all of those muscles require oxygen. It's hard for a guy that big to last in a very long fight. They have to go for the kill early or they have problems.

Also, if they weren't just playing around, McGregor would have kicked that big dude in the gut with some hard kicks and gassed him even sooner.

[enkeivette]

Lot of assumptions there.

It looked to me like the UFC fighter was glistening a lot more towards the end of the fight, I don't think he could keep that up forever. And he did throw some kicks, didn't seem to phase the big guy... made him smile once.

I definitely didn't see the same outcome as you.

[joedls]

Lot of assumptions there.

It looked to me like the UFC fighter was glistening a lot more towards the end of the fight, I don't think he could keep that up forever. And he did throw some kicks, didn't seem to phase the big guy... made him smile once.

I definitely didn't see the same outcome as you.

Glistening as in sweating? How is that an indication of his cardio? Believe me, Conor wasn't tired at all. He could have kept up for a lot longer. The big guy, however, was gulping air. Yeah, we obviously saw it differently. I wonder why?

And I didn't say that Conor wasn't kicking, just that he wasn't kicking hard. He was barely touching him with those kicks. Hard kicks to the body would have worn that big guy out even quicker.

[Shaolin Crane]

My point isn't that size trumps skill. My point is that size does matter. I was only defending against the statement that 'size doesn't matter if you know how to fight.'

I aver that beefcake Guy now at 200 lbs would kick Guy's twins ass at 160 lbs. It's hard for me to describe what I mean other than simply arguing that size does matter, at least usually, because it depends on context. Like, in the video, there's a smaller skilled fighter put up against a fictional WWF fighter. The smaller dude obviously is quicker, but skill or no skill, its harder for him to move a tree stump.

So my point isn't that size trumps skill or vice versa, my point is that EVERYTHING matters... we don't live in a box.
You don't have to cut a tree down to kill it.

[Shaolin Crane]

The problem with being that big and carrying that much muscle is that all of those muscles require oxygen. It's hard for a guy that big to last in a very long fight. They have to go for the kill early or they have problems.


This is the only thing I do not typically agree with. I have said it before, the fighter who has been at his weight the longest will usually have the advantage. The reason why the mountain was gassed is because he has not trained at his weight for combat as long as Connor has, that's all. There are plenty of fighters in super heavy weight that have lungs as good as the smaller guys.