Bringing her back online

[Vettezuki]

Well, dropped off the Vette this weekend with ls1z28. He poked around yesterday and whatever the ticking sound is, it's nothing accessible with the engine in the car. He doesn't think it's cam bearings, mostly because oil pressure never drops out of spec and he says when the LS gets sloppy tolerances they tend to lose quite a bit of pressure. He'll still check of course, but his guess is maybe wrist-pin. In any event, we'll find out. Engine comes out and apart this week.

While it's out "probably" drop in some new lifters (Rhoads variable duration is a top candiate since it is fundamentally a street car) and reseal anything even vaguely tired looking. I DON'T think I'll lower compression with a thicker HG because I'm expecting some of my 91 octane summer knocking is because of the rather high backpressure I have, which will go away with headers and hi-flow cats.

If it turns out to be something more ominous or potentially catastrophic, not sure what I'll do. Not a fan of throwing money at losers.

[Shaolin Crane]

Morel lifters are hands down the best lifters for the money. I have run them in every motor and they are very popular with the LS crowd as well. SO much so its the only lifter Ed Curtis recommends.

Every instance of cam knock I have seen has shown adequate oil pressure as well, I'm not sure the exact cause of it, and not sure anyone has really determined why they do this, but wrist pins would make a whole hell of a lot more noise than what I heard.

[Vettezuki]

We'll have a definitive answer on the sound here in a couple days.

Do the Morel's move enough oil at lower RPMs? It's a street car, bulk of run time will be between 2-3k rpm, or even lower.

[Shaolin Crane]

We'll have a definitive answer on the sound here in a couple days.

Do the Morel's move enough oil at lower RPMs? It's a street car, bulk of run time will be between 2-3k rpm, or even lower.

Yes, absolutely. They are a short travel snap ring retained tool steel lifter. Even solid roller lifters are fine for low rpm street use.

[Shaolin Crane]

Here ya go
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/morel-lsx-link-bar-hydraulic-roller/

[Vettezuki]

Oh that's reasonably priced. I thought they were going to be like $800 or something. Do I need to get a new set of lengthened push rods too?

[Shaolin Crane]

They are usually the same length as the stock units, however as with any valvetrain piece, the pushrods will need to be checked after they are installed. There's a good chance your old ones will work, however with the added strength and oil pressure of any link bar lifter a single piece formed end pushrod is ideal. Mahle, comp and trick flow make great ones that are under $200 a set.

[Vettezuki]

Well, apparently my clutch was down to the rivets. So there's one thing.

[Shaolin Crane]

Ride that clutch grandma

[Vettezuki]

Ride that clutch grandma

No. Maybe it was never fully releasing! BHP and this clutch are about matched, and with something like 70 strip launches, that probably didn't help. So those occasions when the clutch was fully engaged and I felt like it was maybe slipping just a lil . . it probably was. Probably have to go up to a moderate twin disc. I don't want anything so aggressive.

[Shaolin Crane]

Its my job to fuck with you. I know all too well the issues with the hydraulic t56 setup. Which is why I will always prefer a cable.

[Ryridesmotox]

What power are you putting down now? And what block are you using? I've been AWOL from the forum for a while so I'm a bit behind. I did an LS9 clutch in my V last year. You have to get a Katech flywheel because the LS9 has a unique crankshaft bolt pattern. Its actually more expensive than the clutch, but if you can find one used, like I did, you can have a clutch capable of 700-800whp that feels like an OEM LS1 clutch.

[94transamgt]

Ls7 clutch should hold fine,be cheap, and drive easy. Look forward to seeing this car in action.

[Vettezuki]

Thanks for the clutch refs, I'll look into them. I want OEM feel whenever I can get it. Te McLeodd was fine, just burnt up . . .

Right now it puts down 390WHP. With a few planned engine and exhaust mods, just things like lifters, valves, rockers and exhaust and retune, probably/maybe somewhere around 430~WHP. And that'll be fine. If I keep it, which is where I'm at at the moment, and do the remaining suspension, brakes, wheels and tires mods I've thought about, I'll be under 3,000lbs full wet and 430~ to the wheels NA. That's plenty for a street car. :)

[Ryridesmotox]

I thought you were making more power. With under 500 to the wheels I'd stick with an LS7 all day. As far as master cylinder, you might want to consider an upgrade. No stock GM clutch master cylinders seem to be worth a damn.

[Vettezuki]

It's just a H&C 346. The heads are aggressively moded, but the cam is the common max smoggable cam, 114LSA, 224/224,0.566 lift The exhuast is stock, so very restrictive out of the block.

I use a GM Truck MC because it has almost the right bore and stroke and mates to the firewall of the C3 without any mods. No other MC does.

Oh. Main bearings were on their way out too, so it's good we pulled and tore down before something more catastrophic happened. I'll be talking to ls1z28 this afternoon and forming a game plan. I'm keeping a cap on the "while I'm at it" but also want be smart about the "while the engine is out and apart".

[Shaolin Crane]

Ls7 clutch might "hold" but I know several people that complain about it not disengaging either. I believe R1 is coming out with a line of performance clutches based off OE specs.

[Vettezuki]

Well, we were within shouting distance of a total failure.

The sound was coming from rod #6, the bearing was almost toast, but fortunately hadn't spun; it was the slop. There was a lot of metal in the pan that had gone through the motor. Not good, but could have been much worse.

Soooo, ls1z28 recommends a thorough rebuild or an altogether new motor to be reliable.

clean
bore/hone
resurface
check for straightness
balance
new pistons
lifters
push rods if necessary

Cam shows wear and needs to be reground or at least re-polished if not replaced.


Oh the McLeod branded clutch, was just a re branded Valeo. The FW is toast, has hot spots all over.

So I'm looking at a rebuild and new clutch setup.


Mmmm. Anybody have any idea on shops that have experience with LS1s (aluminum blocks) and are reasonably priced?

[Vettezuki]

Called Troy at FPS. That's the one I know and is close to me. They are mostly known for higher performance Ford engine setups, but I asked if his shop has experience with LS and and he said yes. Prices seem good to me. If I bring the block disassembled, it starts at $350 for basic block work, crank turn $150, balance $125 for labor. Parts are nomial, so even with a bunch of options and extras like the morel lifters, probably still under $1,500. That doesn't seem too bad.

[Vettezuki]

LUk (a German firm and GM OE) makes a Gold Pro Series. Lingenfelter used to sell these at around $700~, supposedly good for 700 ft/lbs. Rock Auto has them for $350~, that includes the FW, etc. Far as I can tell this would be an LS7 or LS7+ setup.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=4695798&cc=1361450

RA also has an Exedy setup for $450, but I can't find any reason it's better than the Luk except maybe in the disc material/design. But not clear specs.

I'm going to get a clutch before going to the machine shop since may was well get it balanced while it's apart. It's only $125 and may make a nice difference for overall smoothness on longevity.

[Shaolin Crane]

I wouldn't balance it with the clutch. Best to do the engine parts themselves and if the clutch needs work to do that separately.

As far as machine shops Rod Phillips is great, but afaik he doesn't do assembly, just the machine work. Nate would probably be your best bet to find a good LS dude.

[Vettezuki]

I wouldn't balance it with the clutch. Best to do the engine parts themselves and if the clutch needs work to do that separately.

I meant FW, but is the answer the same?

ls1z28 will do disassembly and can do the assembly, so that's not a big deal. Unless someone comes up with a "these guys are the best and reasonably priced" probably just go with Troy at FPS since the prices seem fine and the location is convenient.

[Ryridesmotox]

I have an LS2 and a L76 rotating assembly right now. All stock crank, rods and pistons in the rotating assembly... If the damage turns out to be more severe let me know. I'll get you a good price on it if you need. They are just sitting here.

[Shaolin Crane]

I meant FW, but is the answer the same?

ls1z28 will do disassembly and can do the assembly, so that's not a big deal. Unless someone comes up with a "these guys are the best and reasonably priced" probably just go with Troy at FPS since the prices seem fine and the location is convenient.
Yes, have the crank spun, and flywheel spun separately. I think Rod charged me, to deck the block, sleeve, hone, and balance for a total of like $450. Hes been doing it for 50 years so I'm sure that has alot to do with it.

[Vettezuki]

Since the engine has to come apart, I'll at least drop in some new lifters. Since the heads are coming off, I'll at least drop in new (LS7) valves and *maybe* a new set of rockers.

[Ryridesmotox]

What heads do you have? LS7 intake valves are 2.20 inches. They probably won't fit in the heads you have unless you have the valve seats machined. If you do rockers, keep your old ones and do the trunnion upgrade. That will extend the life of them considerably. The LS7 lifters are decent. I'd look into a set of slow leakdown lifters as they are less noisy as far as I've read and been told when emailing Brian tooley racing. If you have cathedral port heads on the car right now, you might want to look into trick flow 220 as cast heads with ferrea valves. That setup is highly recommended from many experts I've talked to about my builds. You may want to consider sending the heads to west coast cylinder heads. They do pretty good work.

[Vettezuki]

These are the 4.8L truck heads, already heavily decked and ported by the time I got them, but I'm not sure what was done to them otherwise. It was a common Heads option in the late 90s for the LS1. I'll have the shop take a look and see what they think. I just happen to have a set of LS7 valves around here somewhere. If they're better than what's in and they can work without a ton of extra machining work, then I'll use them, if not, pan it.

I was going to go with Morel Link-Bar lifters per Guy's recommendation. They seem very well regarded and cheap enough at $400~ for a set. I'm not trying to sping up past 7k, I would however like to get to 6,200~ as quickly as possible.

Thanks for the guidance on the rockers.

[Ryridesmotox]

The morels are some of the best lifters around. If you don't mind the extra expense over the ls7 lifters, I'd jump on them. The 799 truck heads are good basically the same as 243s on an ls6. If they have already been milled down, that might be where some of your knock issue is coming from. I might have access to a set of stock 243s or 799s. I'll ask my buddy that I work with flipping cars and motors with. He has a bunch of different heads. The ls7 valve are likely too big to be stuffed into those heads with a smaller bore motor. That's also the reason the LS7 head has a different valve angle than any other LS head... To fit the valves. If you do send the heads out, have the shop see how big the chambers are. If they have been milled significantly, I would say that is your likely culprit in your knock issue. I think in my thread you were saying you were having issues with that.

Are you running a 5.3/4.8 truck block? Or a LS1?

[Ryridesmotox]

Just as a comparison.... Ls7 valves are 2.20, LS3 types are 2.165 and cathedral ports are 2.00. Doesn't seem like a lot, but it's part of the reason that rectangular port heads can't be used on a smaller than 4.00 bore block.

Just as a reference... GM makes a mini ls3 style head for a "small bore" LS1/6 block... It still uses the 2.00 valves

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/m20ProductDisplayView?catalogId=10002&parent_category_rn=11183&top_category=10015&categoryId=11183&langId=-1&productId=2810494&storeId=10001&pgGrp=catNav

[Vettezuki]

It's a 2000 LS1 block with a mod to make it like an LS6 block for oiling, though I forget exactly what that was.

They are DEFINITELY milled & ported 4.8L heads. Static comp is high for sure, *supposedly* 11.1:1 but who knows. I'll have the shop look at them and the block and calcuate what it is with the stock MLS gasket I was running. Might be surprised!

On 91 in the summer it knocks for sure, and ls1z28 said it was probably some detonation that started hammering on the rod bearings. As long as I run Torco, just a little even, it doesn't knock. I wasn't going to run a thicker gasket because I thought a better exhaust eliminating backpressure might fix the problem.

[Ryridesmotox]

Well 243/799 heads have pretty good compression without being milled. I wonder why they would do that unless they built the motor for E85 or race gas. Especially in California with our horrifically poor cat piss 91 octane.

LS1 heads are 10.1:1 stock 68cc chambers
LS6 heads are 10.5:1 stock 60cc chambers

Hopefully they didn't mill them too much. If they didn't, you might be able to rectify the situation with a thicker gasket.

[Vettezuki]

Well 243/799 heads have pretty good compression without being milled. I wonder why they would do that unless they built the motor for E85 or race gas. Especially in California with our horrifically poor cat piss 91 octane.

LS1 heads are 10.1:1 stock 68cc chambers
LS6 heads are 10.5:1 stock 60cc chambers

Hopefully they didn't mill them too much. If they didn't, you might be able to rectify the situation with a thicker gasket.

If a bore requires new pistons, and the static comp is really high and I can't use a thicker gasket, maybe I could use dished pistons? Or is that just silly on an NA?

[Ryridesmotox]

Gotta see what the head chambers are at first. It may or maynot be the issue. 11:1 isn't high enough to cause knock. You may have a tuning issue. But if they milled them down too far, then yea, I'd maybe run a dished piston. But at that point, you'd have to think about what kind of money is going into that vs getting new heads that haven't been milled to death.

[Shaolin Crane]

Nothing wrong with running a dished piston on an n/a motor.

Have the heads cc'ed before purchasing pistons or head gaskets.

Don't run the LS7 exhaust valve unless you want to do this again from scratch.

[Vettezuki]

Well, #3 hat a broken ring and it gouged the wall pretty good. The shop will check, but the bock man not be rebuildable since there is so little to work with on an LS1. #1 had a little coolant in it, so not sure where that came from. Booh. Dropped off the block and heads today. Will have an answer by the end of the week.

Won't bother with the LS7 valves. Not sure what's in them, but they look pretty big already.


Question is if the block is not rebuildable and one of the heads is shot, WTF do I do then. . .

[Ryridesmotox]

That sucks. But I do have access to a LS2 block for you $700 and I'll drop it off. Or I can get you a whole 5.3 to drop in there.

[Vettezuki]

Thanks for the heads up.

Do you mean bare block for the LS2 or does it have the rotating assembly? Also, off hand, what's the interchange between the LS1 and 2 for things like heads, intake, accessories. IOW, how much of what I have could be used?

[Vettezuki]

Forgot to mention, cam is toast. ls1z28 said the springs were probably way too strong for it, kind of obviously worn, and one of the lobes is chewed up.

[Shaolin Crane]

Holy fuck, I though Ron and I were the only ones who fucked shit up in odd style.

I really hate to say it, but the hotrod kit from GM with the LS3 is probably your best bet.

[Vettezuki]

Unless you know something I don't, those are more or less $8k when you're done. On the upside it'd be brand new and about as "bullet proof" as it's going to get for the same or even more power.

As much as or more than the scratch for the motor, I shudder at the idea of integrating it with my LS1 ECU and programming.

[Vettezuki]

There's a place in TX that does blueprinted 5.7 long and short blocks based on the 5.3 for reasonable prices. But I really don't want an iron block. 50~hp less and 80lbs more is not the direction I want to go if I can help it.

[Shaolin Crane]

Unless you know something I don't, those are more or less $8k when you're done. On the upside it'd be brand new and about as "bullet proof" as it's going to get for the same or even more power.

As much as or more than the scratch for the motor, I shudder at the idea of integrating it with my LS1 ECU and programming.

It should just be swap in and go. Nate has an LS3 in his C5, coil packs, ecu, everything should be the same. If you're doing a new engine, then you should get the exhaust the car needs anyhow and will probably benefit from a retune no matter what. Steve at PD likes to work on LS cars alot more than our POS mustangs and says 430rwhp out of a LS3 is about as difficult as your morning shit.

CAVEAT. I looked on the GM page and they no longer offer the Hot-Rod Kit, only the E-rod kit, which is a complete plug and play, with ECM, drive by wire, wiring harness, cats yadda yadda.

The Hot Rod Kit, was essentially the same engine, less the electronics, cats, intake and other stuff. For a while GM was selling them for $4000, then it was up to 51XX, now I don't see it at all.

I did find this one on Summit, however since you are just going for a repair you do not need a full turn key motor. I would look at the performance companies for LS3 long blocks and swap your shit over
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19301326/overview/

[Shaolin Crane]

I know you dont want iron. but for the price, with what you get, may not be a bad way to go.
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-655-tsp-408-cid-lq9-long-block.aspx

[Vettezuki]

Thanks for the references.

Here's the place I was talking about in TX
http://www.ebay.com/sch/thompsonmotorsportsagogecustoms/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

[Vettezuki]

I'm hoping I get lucky with the block and I can be done with all of this including some valve train upgrades including in/out of the car for $3.5k~. If the block can be machined and the head(s) are ok, this should be vaguely doable. It flies out the window quick if either of those have problems though.

[Ryridesmotox]

As far as interchangeability...

#1 the crankshaft reluctor wheel is 24 tooth on LS1/6 and early LS2. Not interchangeable... Can be fixed by having a machine shop press on your old wheel. Gen4 blocks use a 58 tooth wheel.
#2 knock sensors are in a different location, not a big deal, just a longer harness needed.
#3 cam sensor is in a different location.

Otherwise Gen3 and Gen4 blocks are pretty much interchangeable. Oh and the rectangular port heads won't go on a LS1/6 because of smaller bore.

The LS2 I have is a bare block. I have the L76 rotating assembly I took out of the block I am going to bore and stroke. Give you everything for $1k if you want. But I haven't had a chance to see the cylinders if the LS2 yet. Its at my buddy's shop. The LS2 and L76 share bore and stroke size. They are the same blocks. So if the bore needed cleaning up, you'd need slightly larger pistons. The LS2 is currently used as a fitting piece, to locate motor mounts and intakes and such in custom setups.

[Ryridesmotox]

I'd do Thompson motorsports... A guy I know on the V forums had an issue with an LS3 stroker he bought from Texas Speed. They used a blemished block and didn't machine it right. A few cylinders were out of round pretty bad. #5 was the worst. He had to re sleeve it to sell it after he built his LSX. And he isn't the only one that has had issues with TSP stuff.

[Vettezuki]

Otherwise Gen3 and Gen4 blocks are pretty much interchangeable. Oh and the rectangular port heads won't go on a LS1/6 because of smaller bore.



But the 4.8 heads I have, assuming they work, will go on the LS2 block along with the LS6 intake etc. IOW, the checklist to make the LS2 block and L76 rotating assembly work would be:

- press on old reluctor to new crank
- *maybe* hone and new pistons
- modify harness as need to reach slightly different locations of knock and cam sensor
- retune

[Ryridesmotox]

Yea, pretty much. You can use the cathedral heads on a larger bore motor, but you can't use the rectangular heads on the small bore motor, valves are too big... And small bore is all relative... 3.9xx inches is pretty big lol. In all honesty, if you're going to build the thing anyways, have a stroker assembly thrown into the LS2 block. My budget for the lower end is about $3k in parts and machining. And that includes a rotating assembly $2000, $700 machining and assembly, few $$$$ for coated clevite or king bearings. Something to look into. Just as an option. And then you're looking at 500+ to the wheels.

You'd be right at $3500 with the purchase of the LS2 block if you are budget conscious. Which for me... Budget conscious, is IMPOSSIBLE.

[Vettezuki]

Any idea on what kind of sniffer numbers an LS2 stroker puts out?

I am extreme budget concious. :) Also, at 500+ WHP wonder if my planned and affordable Luk Pro Gold (basically LS7) clutch would holdup very well and that has got to be pushing the limits of the C3's aluminum Dana 44. It's not just the engine, but all the shit that gets chewed up and/or broken down the line that starts to really add up. The round about 400WHP I had in a car that's 3,100lbs full wet was pretty snappy! LOL

[Ryridesmotox]

The LS7 would be fine in a C3. You're a lot lighter than a lot of other cars that put down that kind of power in a V like mine. As far as the rear end, don't know about that. I don't know what kind of numbers a LS2 will throw out during smog inspection. Depends on the cam. But honestly, with heads like yours at 11:1, you can get away with a little more.

[Ryridesmotox]

The point you bring up about the rest of the drivetrain is a concern though. Too much power and you'll break the diff or axle. So maybe a stroker isn't ideal.

[Vettezuki]

Street tires probably don't matter so much, but sticky tires and that much torque from anything like a launch on a Dana 44 (type as in a C3) is probably asking for it. Many Corvette oldsters are surprised mine has held up as well as it has with the engine I had given all the launches at the strip. A 12 bolt solves that problem, but poof, a whole new set of expenses and added weight.

[Ryridesmotox]

Yea, at this point, a OEM rebuild is probably more than enough. A nice cam will be more than enough to get into the 400s at the wheels. Just let me know if the block isn't salvageable. I'll hang onto the LS2 for a week or so

[Shaolin Crane]

More displacement and good compression will make the engine more efficient and that means passing the sniffer easier. If you look at the TSP you can order it with whatever reluctor wheel you want, I have only read one or two bad cases from TSP. If you are that concerned, have them send it to you unassembled and have it done here.

[Vettezuki]

Yea, at this point, a OEM rebuild is probably more than enough. A nice cam will be more than enough to get into the 400s at the wheels. Just let me know if the block isn't salvageable. I'll hang onto the LS2 for a week or so

I should know by Friday. I'll keep you posted.

[Vettezuki]

Yea, at this point, a OEM rebuild is probably more than enough. A nice cam will be more than enough to get into the 400s at the wheels. Just let me know if the block isn't salvageable. I'll hang onto the LS2 for a week or so


Just wanted to let you know, in the event I can't use my motor, I'll stick to GenIII, so don't hold the LS2 for me. The harness mods are more than I want to get into and I have a line on a couple LS1 cores if need be. I might contact you about the 241 heads though if you still have them.

[Ryridesmotox]

243 heads is what you're after. And no, I sold it. Sorry, if I come across some I'll let you know. The 243s are slightly better performing due to better valves and smaller combustion chamber. They are the same as 799 truck heads, and the truck heads can usually be found very cheaply. If you do end up going 243s change the valve springs. There was a known issue with early 243 valve spring breaking. Better to be safe than sorry. You can get LS9 springs from lingenfelter racing for $70.

[Vettezuki]

Naturally this is taking longer than hoped. I basically dropped off my block and heads while they were getting out race engines for a tv show of some sort and have been following up with that. Ah well, fortunately I'm not in a rush, but I would like to see some progress. Apparently there is a brand new zero mile crate LS1 close to me for $2,600. Tempting sense it'd be dead reliable, but I don't think I can take the near 100HP drop.

[Shaolin Crane]

You know the rules, take your time/budget/sanity and multiply by three.

[Vettezuki]

Ryder, is the 6L rotating assembly you have for an LQ4/9?

Heads and block are apart and being cleaned. Will be pressure tested and block honed on Monday. The heads look like they *might* make it, but have tiny amount of warpage. The block I'm pretty doubtful of. You can only go 0.010 over max on that year there was a lip on the cylinder with the broken ring that was pretty easily 0.005. . . If I heard troy right he might have a GenIII 6L block.

[Vettezuki]

I *should* finally have an answer about the block and heads tomorrow. They are all apart and cleaned . One of the heads has been pressure tested and was fine. Hopefully there is no other ominous news.

[Vettezuki]

Being checked now.

Made a basic plan.

Troy is going to select a reground cam with my "street performance" target. Probably keep the 114LSA, but maybe increase or alter the durations a little.

We'll keep the stock rockers.

We'll go with GMPP or LS7 lifters over the Morels. He basically said unless I'm spinning a bigger cam there's really no point, the OE is actually better for moderate RPM performance, far quieter and less expensive.

King bearings

He has his own fasteners he had run and supplies to other builders. Basically Class 1 spec, at least ARP quality for about half the cost.

Internal balancing.

Go with forged pistons at least.

Here's the $1,200 question:
It's apart and I can go to a fully forged 383 stroker for +$1,200~

I'm tempted because it's not that much more and because it is a street performance car, not a race car I plan to spin up to peak HP all the time.

[Shaolin Crane]

We'll go with GMPP or LS7 lifters over the Morels. He basically said unless I'm spinning a bigger cam there's really no point, the OE is actually better for moderate RPM performance, far quieter and less expensive.


Uhm, come again?

[Ryridesmotox]

The rotating assembly I have is for a L76. Its a gen4 rotating assembly. It comes with a 58 tooth reluctor wheel but that can be changed by a machine shop pretty easily. I still have it if you need it $250 for everything. I need the cash for odds and ends on my build.

[Ryridesmotox]

If your contemplating going stroker... Do it. Its a whole different animal. The problem is, your heads (that have already been milled if I remember correctly) are warped and are essentially useless unless you want to run E85 or race gas all the time. And, from what you posted about the block, that may be out too much as well.

If you can hop on a LS1 with "zero miles" I'd look into that. A cam change and a set of 243s with a LS6 intake would get you good power.

[Shaolin Crane]

If your contemplating going stroker... Do it. Its a whole different animal. The problem is, your heads (that have already been milled if I remember correctly) are warped and are essentially useless unless you want to run E85 or race gas all the time. And, from what you posted about the block, that may be out too much as well.

If you can hop on a LS1 with "zero miles" I'd look into that. A can change and a set of 243s with a LS6 intake would get you good power.

If he's buying new pistons anyhow there's nothing stopping him from running a dished piston in whatever size to get his desired compression.

[Ryridesmotox]

If he's buying new pistons anyhow there's nothing stopping him from running a dished piston in whatever size to get his desired compression.

This isabsolutely true, but if he's warped an already milled head, that combustion chamber might be getting mighty small by the time its done. He'll have to have it milled again for sure if they are warped. I've called around to a few places for my build, heck you can get 30cc dishes if you want.

Hit this guy up and tell him I (ryridesmotox on LS1tech, aka dude with a 04 CTS-V, aka Ryan Hilderbrand) sent you. https://m.facebook.com/BluePittKustoms

He set me up with all the stuff I needed for my build at a very reasonable price. I just sent my heads to him also for a little porting and such. My rotating assembly was about half he cost I had anticipated at the beginning of my adventure.

[Vettezuki]

Uhm, come again?

His experience of building with them. On a moderate street performance motor like mine, nothing actually shows up as an objective advantage in the data. It's not that they are terrible, just the ROI isn't there. He had technical spiel about why GM OE lifters are overall better for moderate applications but I don't recall the details. Real high performance motors was a different story. The LS7 lifters seem to be the go to for street motor rebuilds. I think that's what Nate uses for that matter.

Ryder, so other than the reluctor, the L76 rotating assembly can go into an LQ9 (Gen III 6L Iron block)?


I'll know about the block and heads today hopefully. If they are ok, probably stay with stock displacement and essentially same cam to avoid the cascade of other costs, like a retune, before which I'd want to do headers, which includes new cats, a cross-member rework, etc. $1k~ in rods and crank starts to look like $4k real fast. Meaning my <$4k rebuild including all parts and labor starts to look like $8k. Cars!

[Ryridesmotox]

Yea should fit no problem. And the rods are beefier in Gen4 stuff. The cranks are good to 900hp so that's fine too, I have the stock pistons on the rods right now. But if you're going dished, you can just toss em.

The only problem is, unless you want to ship it, I don't have a way to drop it off for you. My car is mid build and my truck only has 2nd gear cuz I'm chasing electrical problems that resulted from 20 years of abuse. Or if you are in the Temecula Valley area I can meet you, drop it off with someone, whatever you need.

[Vettezuki]

Cool. I'll let you know. Hoping to catch a break here, but doesn't usually work for me . . .

[Ryridesmotox]

Or if you can wait for a week, I can have my dad drop it off for you. He makes weekly trips to gardena for work. He drives a company car, he'll make a detour for me

[Shaolin Crane]

His experience of building with them. On a moderate street performance motor like mine, nothing actually shows up as an objective advantage in the data. It's not that they are terrible, just the ROI isn't there. He had technical spiel about why GM OE lifters are overall better for moderate applications but I don't recall the details. Real high performance motors was a different story. The LS7 lifters seem to be the go to for street motor rebuilds. I think that's what Nate uses for that matter.

Ryder, so other than the reluctor, the L76 rotating assembly can go into an LQ9 (Gen III 6L Iron block)?


I'll know about the block and heads today hopefully. If they are ok, probably stay with stock displacement and essentially same cam to avoid the cascade of other costs, like a retune, before which I'd want to do headers, which includes new cats, a cross-member rework, etc. $1k~ in rods and crank starts to look like $4k real fast. Meaning my <$4k rebuild including all parts and labor starts to look like $8k. Cars!

Its a a Johnson lifter, which is the OE for nearly everyone. There is nothing a johnson lifter does better than a link bar, I repeat nothing. I will never use a stock style lifter on anything ever again, especially on a LS that uses a plastic tray to locate the lifter. They spin all the time and its usually from mid rpm harmonics than anything. I can give you all kinds of facts, threads, blah blah but no lifter will do anything better than a link bar except cost.

[Vettezuki]

Most of what I have seen on lifter failure when someone bothers to analyze the mode failure and not make assumptions indicates it's a poorly matched spring rate, improperly measured push rod length, etc. His point was OE performs just fine in moderate applications when properly installed. Big cam race motor, different story.

Heads came in at 60cc and motor with stock pistons apparently 11.2:1. Which explains why especially in the summer I had to bump my gas with a little Torco or Toluene to avoid pinging. Headers and a retune might fix that problem but I'll lower it anyway so I can run commie gas without worries.

[Vettezuki]

If I'm understanding correctly, a -7cc dish should take me to around 10.9.

[Shaolin Crane]

Most of what I have seen on lifter failure when someone bothers to analyze the mode failure and not make assumptions indicates it's a poorly matched spring rate, improperly measured push rod length, etc. His point was OE performs just fine in moderate applications when properly installed. Big cam race motor, different story.

Heads came in at 60cc and motor with stock pistons apparently 11.2:1. Which explains why especially in the summer I had to bump my gas with a little Torco or Toluene to avoid pinging. Headers and a retune might fix that problem but I'll lower it anyway so I can run commie gas without worries.

Exactly, you are no where near an OE setup any more and skimping on valve train, as you have just learned personally is a recipe for disaster, anything more than 120lbs on a spring and you should have link bars, as well as anything over .550 lift. Like I said before "big" is relative. What makes a cam "big"? Lots of lift? Lots of duration? Don't skimp on the valve train.

[Ryridesmotox]

Yea I agree. Stock lifters are less than ideal. Tons of guys use them and tons of shops install them with big cams and heavy springs. I'm not sure why, but people think the LS7s are the end all, be all. The LS7 breaks all the time. I'm going to use a link bar in mine. Looking at a set of crane link bar lifters. Not that much more than stock. There are failures all the time of lifters because people don't use them properly.

Another issue is rockers. Many people use stock rockers. They start spitting needle bearings when you abuse them. So people put the upgraded trunnions and bearing to a captured needle type... Which is fine, but you can't use them in a .650+ lift combo. People do, things break, people blame the rockers.

[Vettezuki]

Exactly, you are no where near an OE setup any more and skimping on valve train, as you have just learned personally is a recipe for disaster, anything more than 120lbs on a spring and you should have link bars, as well as anything over .550 lift. Like I said before "big" is relative. What makes a cam "big"? Lots of lift? Lots of duration? Don't skimp on the valve train.

I get your point, I guess it's relative. I'm beyond OE for sure, but pretty moderate compared to nutters. FTM my LS1 lifters (and rockers) look 100% fine. I'll bring it up again and make sure we're on the same page.

My primary failure was a rod bearing, that's what was making noise and best guess indicates a detonation precipitated the impending failure. Pulling it apart we discovered (so far) a broken ring and a chewed up cam. Previously it was an AM spring that popped. Unless I'm forgetting something, nothing OE in the valve train failed or even looks tired. :huh: It's not a lot of money difference, so that's not my concern here, but spending a few hundred dollars extra for nothing more than a little more valve train noise in reality doesn't appeal to me either.

[Shaolin Crane]

There was an engine builder challenge some time ago where they took a stock LS3 engine and the only changes were a trunion upgrade, chromoly pushrods, 165lb dual coil springs, billet timing set and link bar lifters and it was good for 33bhp.

If you want to go the money way. Comp magnum rockers, comp XM Pushrods, Comp lifters, Lunati Chromoly springs

If you want to go the cheap way, Pro comp everything, which I wouldn't recommend

Or the sensible way. Morel Lifters, PNW/PNP pushrods, Trunion upgrade, EP, or Comp springs.

[Vettezuki]

. . There are failures all the time of lifters because people don't use them properly.

This is all I've found. It's not the lifter so much but people just plain configuring their valve train wrong. How many LS7 lifters fail in stock LS7s after even many hard miles? Not many that I'm aware of. The max lift on a stock LS7 is like .590~ and they spin up to 7k.

[Shaolin Crane]

I get your point, I guess it's relative. I'm beyond OE for sure, but pretty moderate compared to nutters. FTM my LS1 lifters (and rockers) look 100% fine. I'll bring it up again and make sure we're on the same page.

My primary failure was a rod bearing, that's what was making noise and best guess indicates a detonation precipitated the impending failure. Pulling it apart we discovered (so far) a broken ring and a chewed up cam. Previously it was an AM spring that popped. Unless I'm forgetting something, nothing OE in the valve train failed or even looks tired. :huh: It's not a lot of money difference, so that's not my concern here, but spending a few hundred dollars extra for nothing more than a little more valve train noise in reality doesn't appeal to me either.
I'll say it again, you're not going to a solid roller, you're staying hydraulic, noise should not increase at all. My injectors are louder than the lifters are, you're having a reputable shop doing the work, so I would expect them to install them with the proper preload and pushrod length.

If a portion of the cam was chewed up, and not the lifters that means the lifter was collapsing at some point and bouncing on the cam or the push rod was flexing. Link bars won't collapse, so no float, etc. Lifter failure is usually for extended consistent RPM, usually doesn't matter at what RPM. 20 seconds at 4k is riskier than 3 seconds at 7k.

I'm all for saving money, but, the valve train is not the place to do it. So either run a cam that will match with the LS7 parts, or run stuff that matches the larger cam.

I'm just offering advice, you can take it how you please.

[Shaolin Crane]

This is all I've found. It's not the lifter so much but people just plain configuring their valve train wrong. How many LS7 lifters fail in stock LS7s after even many hard miles? Not many that I'm aware of. The max lift on a stock LS7 is like .590~ and they spin up to 7k.

Those lifters are paired with a measly 100lb valve spring, make sure that is noted. Lifters, are paired to spring pressure, as noted in my earlier post.

[Ryridesmotox]

Actually... Plenty. My budget may dictate that I have to run LS7s and that's fine for a while to me, but eventually I'll be going with linked bars, they are better.

It depends more on the lobe design from what I understand. If you have a very aggressive ramp rate. The lifter and pushrod can lose contact with the cam lobe (because spring pressure isn't matched well. Its all about how the valvetrain is designed as a whole.

Edit: As a side note, a few of my buddies that work on vettes bought tons of the older sets of LS7 lifter. Apparently the early lifters are better. The newer ones are more failure prone and are said to be the replacement for all LS lifters. That's just their personal experience.

[Shaolin Crane]

Actually... Plenty. My budget may dictate that I have to run LS7s and that's fine for a while to me, but eventually I'll be going with linked bars, they are better.

It depends more on the lobe design from what I understand. If you have a very aggressive ramp rate. The lifter and pushrod can lose contact with the cam lobe. Its all about how the valvetrain is designed as a whole.

Exactly, .550 and up cams have more aggressive ramp rates, more aggressive ramp rates need more spring pressure, run more spring pressure you need a lifter that can handle it, which means you need a pushrod that can handle it.

So either go with LS7 everything. Cam, lifters, pushrods and valve springs, or, use data supplied from cam specs and build accordingly. If you have a lifter failure, you cannot just pop the intake off like with a SBF or SBC.

[Vettezuki]

Ugh. One more day. Kinda getting tired of this aspect of car hobby.

[Ryridesmotox]

Ugh. One more day. Kinda getting tired of this aspect of car hobby.

This too shall pass. I'm still probably 2-3 weeks out. The waiting is the hardest part.

[Vettezuki]

Block is ok at 3.908, max over.

Thanks Ryder, but won't be needing that L76.

Piecing together the package now. Going to keep stock displacement (mostly to avoid the cascade of costs that follow stroking), but will go with forged rods as well as pistons. Pistons will have a light dish to drop CR to between 10.5 and 11.0, depending on what's available.

Remaining head remains to be seen.

[Ryridesmotox]

Cool dude. Keep us posted on the build.

[Vettezuki]

Coming together. May be able to pick it up next week.

Heads and block checked out so far, which means the little bit of coolant that was in no. 1 is a mystery. Troy said he's seen one case where there was a little leak between the liner and block when the engine heated up. Unfortunately, that's not so easy to check for.

A new cam is being ground for it according to my behavior requirements. Not sure what the final specs are yet though.

Will put in H beam rods along with the forged pistons, so when all is said and done, motor should be good for a dead reliable 600WHP or so, which I have no intention of going to with this motor, so a big margin of safety.

With the -4cc dish and my heads, and stock gasket CR will come in at around 10.7 or roughly a half point drop. Everything should work fine with my tune until I get headers at which point I'll go for a full re-tune. That'll be about it for this motor. Probably come in somewhere around 420-430WHP, on a smoggable street friendly 346ci~ NA motor. Not bad.

[94cobra69ss396]

Who's doing your cam?

[Vettezuki]

Who's doing your cam?

I'll ask Troy who the actual grinder is. He spec'd it, but not sure FPS is the cam grinder.

[Vettezuki]

Who's doing your cam?

He said SLR, whoever they are. I can ask more when I pick it up if you have any questions. Basically just waiting for pistons now.

So it looks like
Gaskets: MLS Stock
Pistons: Mahle -4cc forged
Rods: RPM H-Beam forged
Bearings: King
Lifters: LS7
Cam: custom grind billet done by SLR, basically 114LSA mid 220 +- durations
Springs: matched to final cam and lifters
Rockers: keeping stock
Fasteners: FPS

Bore/hone
Pressure test for heads
Head touch up/valve work
Resurfacing
Internal Balancing
Assembly

Don't have final prices all in yet,but I'm guessing all parts and labor, machine work etc. is probably in the $2,500 +- $300 range.

I'm *guessing* with the tiny increase in displacement, the drop in CR, the difference in cam, that my power will be basically the same, around 390WHP, but a MUCH tougher engine and probably smoother after all the balancing and blue printing.


My nightmare scenario is missing something like a hairline fracture in a liner that pops right away. But he says everything is looking ok at the moment.

[Ryridesmotox]

The machinist will be able to see any cracks or anything in the liners. A good machinist should be fairly thorough there. They don't want their work coming back broken or have a bad build associated with their shop. My machinist completely blasted everything and checked every little nook and cranny for an issue. He gave the green light for it. Yours would have told you already if they found something amiss, I'm sure of it.

[Vettezuki]

That's reassuring. He's sure taking his time. ;) Hopefully I'll get it back this Friday.

[Ryridesmotox]

I'm still waiting in my rotating assembly. You're will be back on the road before mine... At least there is that, lol

[Vettezuki]

Theoretically I should have the engine by the end of the day. Fingers crossed.

[Vettezuki]

Picking up tomorrow morning. New cam, though almost identical, necessitated new push rods, and for some reason the lifters weren't on the invoice so he'll have to pick up both of those in the morning and finish the assembly. I did get a bunch of pics while there today, so I'll post those later.

[Vettezuki]

Got the engine back today. Yeah! It ended up more than I hoped, but I went from a heads and cam with stock internals, thrashed cam, worn lifters to a forged rods and pistons, touched up heads, new cam, new lifters, new push rods, etc. etc. all parts and labor, plus zinc additive for "break in" sequence at just under $3,500, so not too bad.

[Shaolin Crane]

*waits for motorgen luck"

[Ryridesmotox]

Not to bad price wise at all. Whatever you do, do NOT run a synthetic for break in. Run a standard mineral based oil. My builder has already cautioned me a few times about that. A synthetic can glaze the cylinder walls and not allow the rings to seat properly.

[Vettezuki]

Not to bad price wise at all. Whatever you do, do NOT run a synthetic for break in. Run a standard mineral based oil. My builder has already cautioned me a few times about that. A synthetic can glaze the cylinder walls and not allow the rings to seat properly.

Same story. Troy said three changes on full mineral oil, or a blend would be fine, with the zinc additive (like from Lucas). Perform at roughly 500 miles, 800 miles and 1,000 miles. Then full synthetic is fine. The issue is apparently synthetic, while objectively superior for shearing and heat tolerance, doesn't cling to metal surfaces at all the same as mineral oil. Or at least that's what I understood.

He said the three things that f up rings sealing properly are trying to do it on full synthetic, running boost before they're set, and of course overheating.

[blackax]

Same story. Troy said three changes on full mineral oil, or a blend would be fine, with the zinc additive (like from Lucas). Perform at roughly 500 miles, 800 miles and 1,000 miles. Then full synthetic is fine. The issue is apparently synthetic, while objectively superior for shearing and heat tolerance, doesn't cling to metal surfaces at all the same as mineral oil. Or at least that's what I understood.

He said the three things that f up rings sealing properly are trying to do it on full synthetic, running boost before they're set, and of course overheating.

They do make full synthetic break in oil. Also watch out because high zinc oils will kill your cats very quickly.

[Vettezuki]

They do make full synthetic break in oil. Also watch out because high zinc oils will kill your cats very quickly.

I think that is a major reason they got away from it as a common additive. I'm only going to run it for the first few oil changes, less than 2,000 miles, and unless it gets a bunch of oil in the combustion for some reason (which it really shouldn't) not much if any zinc should make it to the cats.

[Shaolin Crane]

I run diesel oil in the mustang and the cats are fine.

[Vettezuki]

Should have it back by Saturday. As always, just little gotchas.

The Energy Suspension poly engine mounts slightly relocate the engine and the DS no longer reaches, so I'll have to go back to the OE mounts.

Changed the AC bracket to a non-rednuck POS, OE looking Holly unit. Unfortunately, this means running down another belt.

Head cross-over pipe gasket, a dealer only item that had to be ordered.

But really, just about there.

The Luk Pro Gold clutch (supposedly LS7 OE+) is way-the-fuck beefier than the McLeod single plate street performance clutch. Also, the FW is a kind of lightened cast piece instead of aluminum. At first I was slightly butt hurt about this, but in reality I'm not doing any road racing where spinning up absolutely fast as possible is the goal. The heavier FW actually should help with street manners, namely getting away from a light; slightly less likely to bog off idle because of the rotational inertia while the clutching is engaging.

[Shaolin Crane]

Your build thread sucks, there are no pictures.

[Vettezuki]

Here is an engine. It has pistons and things. :p

This shows the top of the new Mahle "dished" pistons. The reliefs are huge.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/527/LS_Rebuild_01.jpg

Can't really see here but, I did go with H-beam forged rods. I think RPM was the manufacturer.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/527/LS_Rebuild_02.jpg

In the past I had farted around with the idea of changing the reluctor, but I kept it stock for the era.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/527/LS_Rebuild_10.jpg

Just kind of like this pic.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/527/LS_Rebuild_08.jpg

Getting ready to load up.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/527/LS_Rebuild_20.jpg

Loaded up.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/527/LS_Rebuild_22.jpg

More pics in vehicle album.

http://motorgen.com/pic/showgallery.php/cat/527

[Shaolin Crane]

RPM makes good shit. I'm running their rods, and fly wheel.

[Vettezuki]

Fired right up, no problems. I pick her up tonight.

Question:
Other than oil changes and zinc additive for the first few rounds, do I need to be particularly concerned with how I drive while the rings are setting? FPS said other than normal considerations of making sure it's up to temp, and maybe not road racing, it's fine to get on it a little bit. Very specific break in procedures are more necessary for solid roller setups, but hydraulic not so much.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yes, fucking rag on it. Every motor I build gets the initial start up, 2k rpm hold till operating temp. Shut down, check over, start back up, full rpm range revs (this is the time where I do a massive burnout and a few WOT runs)If you don't have the same train of thought, Few half throttle runs then a few WOT runs should do it. Basically stay away from extended consistent RPM at any range (including idle) and you're good to go. Then change oil.

[Vettezuki]

Ok. When I got there we fired up and let it run for a few minutes while BSing. probably should have turned it off, ah well. HOpefully that didn't spoil the cake. Avoided extended spells at one RPM on the freeway coming home as best I could, with mild romping.

Runs great. Two things I noticed, one minor one enormous.

It makes quite a different engine sound, kind of noisier in a way, but not bad. Paul tells me that's because of the forged parts and it might have been built a little loose. It seems roughly the same, but a different character, once up to temp.

The HUGE difference is the clutch. It is way way way lighter clutch pedal feel than the McLeodd. Yet the clutch is clearly a beefier unit than the McLeodd was. I definitely prefer it overall. Though it is more like a switch, than a throw.

[Shaolin Crane]

Going from a stock shortblock to an aftermarket one with forged internals sounded identical, even with the morel lifters. Get a long handle screw driver on their and listen for special noises just to be safe.

Usually the heavier duty clutches dont have much throw, just on, or off. I have a spec 3+ that I avoided using until its absolutely necessary for this reason.

[Vettezuki]

Yeah. But your nearly deaf and my hearing is off the charts. :jester: It's simply different in nature, which makes sense if the materials that compose the internals are different, they will, by definition, resonate differently.

I didn't describe the clutch properly. It's like spring loaded or counterweighted or something, the pedal has a little resistance at first and this just goes. The clutch itself has a range of engagement, not grabby at all. Definitely prefer overall to the McLeodd. Also, as I guessed, it bogs way less coming off idle in first gear. I imagine that has to be because of the mass of the flywheel. Also less "jerky" in first gear. A MUCH friendlier car to drive in traffic now.

The computer has relearned its trims and I put in a new tank of gas. Goes like stink.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yeah. But your nearly deaf and my hearing is off the charts. :jester:

Don't forget nose blind, partially color blind and devoid of most sensitivity. :jester: In the ring is where I really shine :crutches: