Adventures of the co-signed Aveo

[Vettezuki]

Well, from the no good deed goes unpunished file.

A couple years back we co-signed on a car loan for a receptionist. I was just informed she can no longer pay, and she'll surrender the car to us, which wouldn't be so bad given that it only has about a year left on nominal payments. Except that it has *at least* a blown HG and damaged cat. . .

[Shaolin Crane]

Car?

[enkeivette]

Well, from the no good deed goes unpunished file.

A couple years back we co-signed on a car loan for a receptionist. I was just informed she can no longer pay, and she'll surrender the car to us, which wouldn't be so bad given that it only has about a year left on nominal payments. Except that it has *at least* a blown HG and damaged cat. . .

:picard: No, no... never. I wouldn't co-sign for my own brother.

Well fix it and flip it. You could go after her for indemnification, but since she's broke it would really just be a waste of time.

[Vettezuki]

She has a gift for making the worst possible choice at each turn. We were trying to be a positive and supportive influence, which I don't regret, as she has acknowledged and expressed gratitude so at least some flicker might have gotten through, but holy shit. . .this plus some surprise back business taxes, and not being able to pull of a refi business debt exit, have kicked me in the nuts a little. Anyway, it get's towed in the morning, so I'll find out more. Hopefully it's just the HG, and not some catastrophic head warpage . . . but knowing her . . .

[Shaolin Crane]

Again, kind of car?

[Vettezuki]

Again, kind of car?

2007 Chevy Aveo. Mileage unknown as of yet (battery gone). Interior is pretty filthy but should clean up ok. The passenger front quarterpanel is toast, windshield broken, battery toast, HG and/or head toast, some problem with cat, front tires pretty worn. It's got about $2k left on the loan. I'm imagining at least $1k to get it into decent running shape.

This is what I know so far. . .

I have to think seriously if I want to bother getting it into a salable shape or just eat it and liquidate for scrap.

It's usually just the heads that warp and not the block as well right? Do you know a place that will deck the heads if there's minor warpage for cheap?

[Shaolin Crane]

Pacific Engine should still be able to handle decking a head. I'll supervise if need be.

[enkeivette]

2007 Chevy Aveo. Mileage unknown as of yet (battery gone). Interior is pretty filthy but should clean up ok. The passenger front quarterpanel is toast, windshield broken, battery toast, HG and/or head toast, some problem with cat, front tires pretty worn. It's got about $2k left on the loan. I'm imagining at least $1k to get it into decent running shape.

This is what I know so far. . .

I have to think seriously if I want to bother getting it into a salable shape or just eat it and liquidate for scrap.

It's usually just the heads that warp and not the block as well right? Do you know a place that will deck the heads if there's minor warpage for cheap?

I've got a couple of places that will do it for $30-$40. Even know of one place that will surface it with MAJOR warpage, when they really shouldn't. Ha

[Vettezuki]

BTW, how do you check if a head is warped if it's somewhat minor? She said it "shoots out coolant" . . that's not good, but I haven't seen it yet.

[Shaolin Crane]

BTW, how do you check if a head is warped if it's somewhat minor? She said it "shoots out coolant" . . that's not good, but I haven't seen it yet.

Machinists ruler across the deck. Don't rule out freeze plugs either, if the car is that fucked up then I wouldn't take her diagnosis with any weight.

[blackax]

She has a gift for making the worst possible choice at each turn. We were trying to be a positive and supportive influence, which I don't regret, as she has acknowledged and expressed gratitude so at least some flicker might have gotten through, but holy shit. . .this plus some surprise back business taxes, and not being able to pull of a refi business debt exit, have kicked me in the nuts a little. Anyway, it get's towed in the morning, so I'll find out more. Hopefully it's just the HG, and not some catastrophic head warpage . . . but knowing her . . .

Wow sorry to hear you got the short end of the stick. Hope you can get out from under the car with out it costing you too much.

[Damian]

Fix it, flip it and make some money for your time.

[Vettezuki]

Fix it, flip it and make some money for your time.

Well, that's not going to happen, but if I'm really lucky for my time I might wash on cash.

Owed is about $2k. KBB fair is $3k, KBB Good is $3,700. At this point I think I'd be doing really well to get it decent looking and running reasonably well for anything near $1k.

Something wrong with head/cooling
Somethign wrong with cat
Headlights don't go on
Blinkers don't work
Passenger door doesn't open at all (hopefully just stuck internal mechanism)
Broken windshield
toast battery
Engine cover including over timing belts shattered
passenger front quarterpanel toast
Part of unibody under passenger door banged up
Front tires weak

This is what's known!

It's still probably worth doing to keep the loss minimized, but definitely not a money maker of any kind.

[Damian]

Something tells me those problems are the reason she "cant afford it anymore".

[Shaolin Crane]

Something tells me those problems are the reason she "cant afford it anymore".

Yup

[Leedom]

Did she off-road the thing, damn!? Sorry you are getting screwed with this. I learned years ago never lend anyone anything you need back (money, tools, furniture, etc.)

[Vettezuki]

Something tells me those problems are the reason she "cant afford it anymore".

There's a lot of colorful story, but the short of it is she ended up married to not the greatest guy very young and had a couple kids. Now she's getting divorced but he doesn't have much and neither does she. I'm 99% sure the damage was from this fella, who definitely curb crashed at least. So I do think she's probably down to rubbing sticks together as I think her parents have cut her off too, so continuing to pay for a a car that for her would be thousands to get back on the road probably is just not terribly rational with little mouths to feed. Personally I'd damn near starve instead of coming up short on a financial obligation, but I'm not a young mother of two with dick for resources either.

Hopefully the gods will smile and for the time in I'll at least wash on expenses.

So who's coming over to volunteer some help? :smack:

But dads with daughters, pay lots of attention to them and set the role model of the kind of guy they should end up with, cuz if you don't and they develop daddy troubles, they can seriously set themselves back from a young age that can be hard to recover from. I don't know that's what happened here, but that sure happens a lot.

[blackax]

There's a lot of colorful story, but the short of it is she ended up married to not the greatest guy very young and had a couple kids. Now she's getting divorced but he doesn't have much and neither does she. I'm 99% sure the damage was from this fella, who definitely curb crashed at least. So I do think she's probably down to rubbing sticks together as I think her parents have cut her off too, so continuing to pay for a a car that for her would be thousands to get back on the road probably is just not terribly rational with little mouths to feed. Personally I'd damn near starve instead of coming up short on a financial obligation, but I'm not a young mother of two with dick for resources either.

Hopefully the gods will smile and for the time in I'll at least wash on expenses.

So who's coming over to volunteer some help? :smack:

But dads with daughters, pay lots of attention to them and set the role model of the kind of guy they should end up with, cuz if you don't and they develop daddy troubles, they can seriously set themselves back from a young age that can be hard to recover from. I don't know that's what happened here, but that sure happens a lot.

Cut your loses and get rid of the car as it. You are not going to even get close to getting the car good enough to make any money.

[Vettezuki]

Cut your loses and get rid of the car as it. You are not going to even get close to getting the car good enough to make any money.

"As is" is probably scrap or there about since it doesn't run, that's -$2k~. With $1k~ in and sell for $3k~ I break even on money. Those are the basic numbers. The killer would be if I ran into something much more expensive along the way. So first thing is to identify biggest cost items without spending any money if I can help it.

[Shaolin Crane]

There's a lot of colorful story, but the short of it is she ended up married to not the greatest guy very young and had a couple kids. Now she's getting divorced but he doesn't have much and neither does she. I'm 99% sure the damage was from this fella, who definitely curb crashed at least. So I do think she's probably down to rubbing sticks together as I think her parents have cut her off too, so continuing to pay for a a car that for her would be thousands to get back on the road probably is just not terribly rational with little mouths to feed. Personally I'd damn near starve instead of coming up short on a financial obligation, but I'm not a young mother of two with dick for resources either.

Hopefully the gods will smile and for the time in I'll at least wash on expenses.

So who's coming over to volunteer some help? :smack:

But dads with daughters, pay lots of attention to them and set the role model of the kind of guy they should end up with, cuz if you don't and they develop daddy troubles, they can seriously set themselves back from a young age that can be hard to recover from. I don't know that's what happened here, but that sure happens a lot.
Hey now, if there weren't girls with daddy issues Enkei and I wouldn't get nearly as many dates as we do.

[Vettezuki]

Did she off-road the thing, damn!? Sorry you are getting screwed with this. I learned years ago never lend anyone anything you need back (money, tools, furniture, etc.)

I'm pretty easy with most stuff, but you have to watch it. In this case, the idea was that we were lending our credit, nothing out of pocket. My mistake was to not follow up with her more closely and get the loan refinanced in her own name. Then it just would have been her own journey and lesson getting it repoed and damaging her credit. We have through the roof credit and zero personal debts, which is a nice position to be in in case need or great opportunity arises (though I'm sort of miltant about use of consumer credit), so letting it get repod was both a bit irresponsible IMO, plus the ding to our credit could come back around to bite us if we wanted to refi should the rates and terms drop into a nice window again; something far more expensive than even eating the $2k worst case.

[Redondo Jon]

Did she off-road the thing, damn!? Sorry you are getting screwed with this. I learned years ago never lend anyone anything you need back (money, tools, furniture, etc.)I was thinking almost the same thing but demolition derby popped into my head first. Wow Ben you’ve got a lot on your plate man.

[Shaolin Crane]

Can you not donate it to one of the charities? You might be able to get a write off for the "good" value of the car, which may help with that other business tax that popped up, just spit balling.

[Vettezuki]

Can you not donate it to one of the charities? You might be able to get a write off for the "good" value of the car, which may help with that other business tax that popped up, just spit balling.

Thank you for your consideration.

The way those work is you get the write off for the value of the sale handled by the organization. It's basically an auction format and given this no worky so good, probably pretty close to scrap value. Additionally it doesn't come off your tax bill, but just reduces your taxable income (same as any charitable donation). It's good fast way to get something out and get *some* value for it and to *feel good* about it, but it's pretty minimal in most cases.

[Shaolin Crane]

Didn't know how it worked, i've certainly never given a car away

[enkeivette]

Hey now, if there weren't girls with daddy issues Enkei and I wouldn't get nearly as many dates as we do.

Lol.

Disagree with blackax, dont ask for advice on how to pinch pennies from someone who owns a Cadillac :P

Door fix sounds easy, HG not a huge deal, paint and body... I dont know if it would be worth the cost of materials. But a running 2007 is worth at least a few grand.

[BADDASSC6]

I'm sorry to hear you are in this situation. Every time I have involved friends and finances I have regretted it. Literally thousands of dollars fucked. I now just assume it's a loss now. I agree that they are probably making a financial decision to let the car go and making you deal with it. I would take that into consideration if you ever deal with this person again. I wouldn't give two fucks about her kids. If they were really hungry they could go to California state welfare and make more money than all of us.

[blackax]

Lol.

Disagree with blackax, dont ask for advice on how to pinch pennies from someone who owns a Cadillac :P

Door fix sounds easy, HG not a huge deal, paint and body... I dont know if it would be worth the cost of materials. But a running 2007 is worth at least a few grand.

Hey, I own alot of cheap crappy cars. I DD a truck that cost me 800$ I have put over 80k and my total investment is less then 1600$ (I drive 140 miles a day) So I can pinch pennies with the best (ok maybe not on guys level).

My thought is even at the end of the day the car wont be worth 2k. The body damage alone isnt worth it. The rest seems kind of easy to fix but thats what he knows of there could be a lot more, you are going to have a hard time to break even.

[Vettezuki]

Carlos, I feel ya. I've received tremendous help in my life, primarily from family though, so I just try to "pay it forward" by helping where and how I/we can. This was a mistake, mostly I should have followed up to make sure she refinanced in her own name, so partially my own damn fault. But once she decide she wasn't going to, or couldn't pay, there was really no choice left but to take it over. If I let it get repoed, the credit ding would be nasty and I'm sure the CU would come after me for the balance since they know I have it. Since she was at least considerate enough to tell us what was going on and surrender it wihtout any hassle (she could have made it more unpleasant as she wasn't obligated to surrender it) I just moved to clear it as fast as possible. Which is done now. The remaining question is just liquidate it and eat the loss, or try to mitigate it with repair and sale.

At least the passenger front fender, apparently in the same color from the great LKQ is about $170 after tax.

Windshield is probably in the $100 range.

HG is like $25. (Even full engine gasket kit is only like $120).

The cover over the timing belts is shattered (not a good sign . .) and don't know what to call it as engine cover from Rock Auto looks different.

But, basically parts are cheap and relatively available.

[injdinjn]

You have to do a actual cost estimate and figure low to middle book at best and see how it pencils out.
A option is CL "needs work" $1000 obo and see what happens.

[Vettezuki]

You have to do a actual cost estimate and figure low to middle book at best and see how it pencils out.
A option is CL "needs work" $1000 obo and see what happens.

Fair to moderate is $3,000 - $3,500 KBB. If the market would fetch that, my breakeven is at $1,000 - $1,500 in, (not counting value of time of course). I've considered the CL option.

[kdracer73]

Holy Crap ! I thought my daughters treated cars like crap ! At least the car Robyn blew up was a 93 Camry !

What a crappy all around deal! I think you will be lucky to break even, and hope you do !

[Vettezuki]

Well some minor good news. I put battery in just to see if it would turn. It started right up and actually sounded ok, minus some rattling and some kind of fuel/oil vapor leak. It also went right into gear and moved forward and back.

It's low on oil and you can literally see sludge on the cam journals looking through the filler neck. Never seen that before!

It seems to be empty of coolant. I wonder if maybe the stat stuck closed it overheated and blew a gasket, maybe without even much head warpage. That'd be sweet. Not counting on it though.

Trans Fluid Question:
I checked the tranny fluid and it was way up the stick, past the "Hot" mark though it was cold (for months). What the hell is that about you think?

Break even would be the ideal. But if I can keep from even losing $1k it's still maybe worth the moderate effort. If it's a ton of effort that only ends up saving me from $500 loss, then fuck it. So far it's looking like a lot of little shit and maybe nothing too major. Fingers crossed.

[Vettezuki]

Paul, what's the book time on removing the Aveo head? Fortunately it looks like everything is pretty easy to get to.

[kdracer73]

Trans might just be overfilled....I have seen trans coolers leak fluid between Radiator and trans, but the fluid will look milky.

[Vettezuki]

Trans might just be overfilled....I have seen trans coolers leak fluid between Radiator and trans, but the fluid will look milky.

Book time for head removal?

[Shaolin Crane]

Try and list it on CL for the cost owed first, you might get a surprise from someone.

[Vettezuki]

Try and list it on CL for the cost owed first, you might get a surprise from someone.

$2k for non-op, blown head or HG, etc., when a decent running model is just $1,500 more? That would be fairly shocking. But do ya think that's even possible?

[Shaolin Crane]

Yes. I'm not even sure how I pull off some of the shit that I do on CL, but it happens.

[Damian]

Just fix it super cheap. I can get ahold of a buddy of mine who knows a shop up in LA that will resurface the head without disassembling it. He did it to his and that was 2-3 years ago and he is still driving it. I think he said it cost him $50? Then rockauto for everything else you need.

[Vettezuki]

Just fix it super cheap. I can get ahold of a buddy of mine who knows a shop up in LA that will resurface the head without disassembling it. He did it to his and that was 2-3 years ago and he is still driving it. I think he said it cost him $50? Then rockauto for everything else you need.

I was surprised the full engine rebuild kit from rock auto, pistons, rings, oil and water pump, all seals and gaskets was <$400. Don't need that, just surprised how cheap it was.

[enkeivette]

That's how my Vette head was done. And don't get ahead of yourself Ben, if it aint broke don't fix it.

[Vettezuki]

That's how my Vette head was done. And don't get ahead of yourself Ben, if it aint broke don't fix it.

No no. I was just surprised how cheap it was. Maybe I'll get lucky and it's just a stat and a gasket or something. :) Need help with problem identification though. . cough.

[Damian]

Id say fill it with water, run it and see if it smokes out the tail pipe, or if it just leaks some place else. Might just be a bad coolant hose. Id come over and help you out but Id need a baby sitter.

[Vettezuki]

I'm guessing I should use at least distilled water given how crazy hard the water is in Fullerton?

[Damian]

Just use the water hose, youre not keeping it. Youll end up draining it shortly after anyways.

[Vettezuki]

Pulled only two related codes. Not sure what they mean or imply.

P0037 HO2S Heater Control Circuit Low (Bank 1 Sensor 2)
P0038 HO2S Heater Control Circuit High (Bank 1 Sensor 2)

[Damian]

Id say that's just a bad O2 sensor.

[enkeivette]

No no. I was just surprised how cheap it was. Maybe I'll get lucky and it's just a stat and a gasket or something. :) Need help with problem identification though. . cough.

Shoulda called me G, I was driving past you. I'm free tomorrow, but leaks are best found in the day. Call me Sat morning unless you're off Friday.

[Vettezuki]

Shoulda called me G, I was driving past you. I'm free tomorrow, but leaks are best found in the day. Call me Sat morning unless you're off Friday.


Maybe I'll take an afternnoon break or come home "early" while it's still light out.

[enkeivette]

Maybe I'll take an afternnoon break or come home "early" while it's still light out.

Just give me a heads up.

[injdinjn]

Fair to moderate is $3,000 - $3,500 KBB. If the market would fetch that, my breakeven is at $1,000 - $1,500 in, (not counting value of time of course). I've considered the CL option.

My son and I peruse CL for fixer uppers to flip, most are asking book for something that you can't even test drive and they disappear off CL so someone is buying them.

[Vettezuki]

Here's the car, a little walk around, start up and run. There's a some coolant leak from at least a metal block under the electrical box (between reservoir and battery) and above the trans. Is that some sort of cooler? Maybe the reason the trans fluid read high is that it has a bunch of water in it. :huh:

Aveo - YouTube

[kdracer73]

I get "sorry this video is private"

I'll see what Frankie and I are doing Saturday . I might be able to stop on my way over after smog....4ish. Or Sunday sometime...

[Vettezuki]

I get "sorry this video is private"

I'll see what Frankie and I are doing Saturday . I might be able to stop on my way over after smog....4ish. Or Sunday sometime...

Try again. I set it to private thinking the link would work (be not be browsable on YT.) It's public now.

[Damian]

Sounds like it has no oil in there!

[kdracer73]

Calls for 5.8 hours. The timing cover is 20 bucks from Chevy.

[Vettezuki]

Calls for 5.8 hours. The timing cover is 20 bucks from Chevy.

Good to know about the cover. A little surprised the head removal is that long as it seems relatively exposed.

Are the head bolts reusable, or are they all torque to yeild?

[Shaolin Crane]

cough insurance cough.

[enkeivette]

Good to know about the cover. A little surprised the head removal is that long as it seems relatively exposed.

Are the head bolts reusable, or are they all torque to yeild?

Ha ha ho ho ho... a FWD cylinder head job SUCKS. Id rather do both your heads, and mine than a FWD car. It's all about the side of the motor, getting the timing belt off. You'll need to remove a 5" wide bracket and 8" long bolts, from the 2" area between the frame and the motor.

[kdracer73]

Good to know about the cover. A little surprised the head removal is that long as it seems relatively exposed.

Are the head bolts reusable, or are they all torque to yeild?


Time is for complete job...not sure about bolts, but most likely torque to yield.

[Damian]

Ha ha ho ho ho... a FWD cylinder head job SUCKS. Id rather do both your heads, and mine than a FWD car. It's all about the side of the motor, getting the timing belt off. You'll need to remove a 5" wide bracket and 8" long bolts, from the 2" area between the frame and the motor.

This is how you feel when you're done: :crutches: I hate timing belts on FWD cars.

[Vettezuki]

So what is an appropriate/safe solvent for cleaning up the cams and valleys, etc.? I'll post a pic later but I wonder if they ever changed the oil. Like even once. It's literally crusty around the head bolts, etc.

The good news is that when I drained it,it stank, but there was no metal flakes or noticeable particulates at all. Just thin and stinky.

Paul, also I think it was maybe still a little low on oil, wonder if that affected pressure. Removing the oil pan looks like a minor PITA. I'm thinking to clean up the top side good, put in some fresh oil along with Sea Foam or that degunk stuff if it's a more effective detergent, and run that through a bit and see where the pressure is at. I can pull the real time pressure with ODBII reader as long as the aveo spits it out.

The seal under the valve cover wasn't very good and there was a ton of oil down above plugs 1 and 4.

[Shaolin Crane]

it's a shame you came home and found the car burned to the ground

[Damian]

Just run seafoam through it and call it good. Or let it disappear, the whole car that is.

[kdracer73]

The problem you might run into, as bad as that thing is sludgged up, is the debris that is freed up by Seafoam, clogs up the oil pick-up screen. But it is worth a try. If it works YAY !. If not, still got to pull the pan..

We stopped selling engine oil flushes on sludge filled motors in our industry,

because we ate a few engine jobs.

[Shaolin Crane]

i'd fill it up with seafoam and tranny fluid. Like a full 5 quarts of tranny fluid.

[enkeivette]

Did I miss something? Where was the coolant leak coming from?

[kdracer73]

Did I miss something? Where was the coolant leak coming from?

Looks like the coolant reservoir looks to be cracked....I forgot to grab my pressure tester from the shop...

[Vettezuki]

The problem you might run into, as bad as that thing is sludgged up, is the debris that is freed up by Seafoam, clogs up the oil pick-up screen. But it is worth a try. If it works YAY !. If not, still got to pull the pan..

We stopped selling engine oil flushes on sludge filled motors in our industry,

because we ate a few engine jobs.

Yep. Gonna have to pull the pan. Put in some fresh oil, oil flush, and sea form. The warning indicator went off for a second or two, then came back on. so the pickup must be blocked. I'll drain and strain the otherwise brand new oil. Pull the plan and clear.

Not sure there's any problem with the HG or warped head actually. But it seems pretty clear that it is oozing oil through head between 2/3 exhaust ports. . .

Which means oil has been dripping down through the cat, so that's probably toast . . .

[enkeivette]

Yep. Gonna have to pull the pan. Put in some fresh oil, oil flush, and sea form. The warning indicator went off for a second or two, then came back on. so the pickup must be blocked. I'll drain and strain the otherwise brand new oil. Pull the plan and clear.

Not sure there's any problem with the HG or warped head actually. But it seems pretty clear that it is oozing oil through head between 2/3 exhaust ports. . .

Which means oil has been dripping down through the cat, so that's probably toast . . .

I have heard of a motor being so worn that it set off the oil pressure indicator just from sloppy tolerances. Just in case, I'd fill it back up with some 20w50 when you get it back together.

[Vettezuki]

Well, I got all the bolts off the oil pan, but it appears to be bonded ridiculously tight to the block/transaxle. Now what? I tried my dead blow, but I can't really get any swing or purchase on much of it.

[Shaolin Crane]

Air hammer

[Vettezuki]

Air hammer

I have one, but didn't want to scar the mating surfaces.:huh:

[Shaolin Crane]

They make plastic inserts for the hammer

[Vettezuki]

They make plastic inserts for the hammer

They? Where do I get said plastic thingy magigs?

[Shaolin Crane]

I don't know who made mine, but I know they exist. Google is your friend.

[enkeivette]

Did you stick a pry bar in there? High heat gasket surfaces usually need to be pried apart. It's not a cylinder head deck, pry that bitch off. And double check you're not missing any bolts.

[Vettezuki]

Did you stick a pry bar in there? High heat gasket surfaces usually need to be pried apart. It's not a cylinder head deck, pry that bitch off. And double check you're not missing any bolts.

Pry bar on what exactly? There is no crack to exploit.

I am curious to see what madness lurks beneath though :nuts:

[Damian]

Ive hit the side of the head with a hammer to break it loose. I hit it in an upward direction on the sides.

[Vettezuki]

Ive hit the side of the head with a hammer to break it loose. I hit it in an upward direction on the sides.

You hit the head to release the oil pan?

[kdracer73]

On some there are 2 bolts way up between oil pan and converter cover . Did you see any . Some Times the dust cover hides them. I'll see if I can find a pic.

[Vettezuki]

On some there are 2 bolts way up between oil pan and converter cover . Did you see any . Some Times the dust cover hides them. I'll see if I can find a pic.

I'll double check, but I think I got them all. Also, it's not budging at ANY point along the pan to block seam.

[kdracer73]

Pictures Sent your phone.

[kdracer73]

Solid aluminum pans don't flex. The bolts will break first.

[Damian]

You hit the head to release the oil pan?

For some reason I thought head, not oil pan. Don't listen to me.

Like Paul said, sometimes there are 2 bolts that you use to push the pan off, one on each side.

[Vettezuki]

Got the oil pan off. It was pretty much a bucket of sludge even after the fresh oil and detergents. No way the pickup was going to clear. Anyway, I'm in process of cleaning it all and putting it back together. Then I'll strain the almost new oil and detergents and run for a bit to see what happens. It must be pretty carbonned up in the intake and pistons. During this process in the last couple of days, I ran some sea foam through it and turned it on later. It belched a death cloud of impressive proportions. I'm a little concerned that even thoguh I cleaned it up, the first time it starts properly running oil through the galleys and passages, it's going to dislodge a ton of sludge in there too and clog the pickup again. Though at least I now the process for romoing the pan so it shouldn't be too bad even if that happens.

[Vettezuki]

PS. Yes there were two sort of concealed bolts under dust covers. Then some mild prying and it came loose. It doesn't have a gasket, you just use RTV to create a seal.

[enkeivette]

Run some cheap oil and ATF in it for 20 mins then drain it again if youre so worried. You can use my break in oil if you want. I have 4 quarts of Valvoline with 20 mins of run time on it, from the last time I replaced a piston ring.

[Vettezuki]

Run some cheap oil and ATF in it for 20 mins then drain it again if youre so worried. You can use my break in oil if you want. I have 4 quarts of Valvoline with 20 mins of run time on it, from the last time I replaced a piston ring.

I have a little more than four quarts of oil with less than 20 minutes on it. That's what I'mma gonna use.

[Vettezuki]

So potential good news. Paul came over and did a block test and no hydrocarbons are showing up in teh coolant. What appears to be oil from the head, may be part of the massive amounts of residue from the previously shitty valve cover gasket. I cleaned it up, per Paul's recommendation, and noted it was actually pretty clean. I'll super clean it tomorrow and try again. There is a chance, there is literally nothing wrong with the head or HG. Fingers crossed.

Some pics.

The first hing I had to do was replace the battery. This one, for some reason, didn't work so well. My charger flashed, "Are you fucking serious" when I tried it. Never saw that before.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130819_190801.jpg

I've never seen crusty caked on oil like this before. Amazingly the lobes didn't show a lot of wear, nor was there any noticable metal in the oil The cams were definitely not getting the proper amount of oil, but apparently go enough to keep them from total failure.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130824_212219.jpg

Under the valve cover wasn't so hot either.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130824_212226.jpg

The crank wasn't as bad overall being in the pan.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130827_220452.jpg

But that pickup was never going to clear with just oils and standard solvents. Really harsh stuff might have worked, but then seals and bearings might have take a nasty hit.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130827_221611.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130827_221539.jpg

The pan was pretty nasty.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130827_224824.jpg

This was just one of many little passes. There was probably a couple pounds of sludge in there.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130827_225314.jpg

Spent plenty of time to clean up the pick up, pan and top side. Put it back to gether with a short run of relatively fresh oil and solvents. Then another change. Purs like a kitten and is getting plenty of pressure and oil.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/20130828_212924.jpg

[Damian]

Looks exactly how my Jeep motor looked like when I tore it apart after my worthless sister in law drove it for about a year or so.

Hopefully this is all you need to do engine wise.

[enkeivette]

:popcorn:

[Shaolin Crane]

God damn wtf

[Vettezuki]

Well, I may be catching a lucky break. After pressure washing the engine and head carefully, and putting on a new reservoir, I let it idle in the heat for a solid 20+ minutes. Purred like a kitten, didn't overheat, no apparent leaks. May only need O2 Sensors to complete engine stuff.

[Leedom]

That is a pretty ugly inside. Glad everything seems to be working out for the best.

[Vettezuki]

That is a pretty ugly inside. Glad everything seems to be working out for the best.

With a bit of elbow grease and time, it cleaned up pretty good (see after pick of pickup tube above) and amazingly, so far at least, no apparent major engine damage at all.

[Damian]

There is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Vettezuki]

There is bodywork, windshield replacement and upholstery shampooing at the end of the tunnel. :)

[Ryridesmotox]

Wow that is just terrible. Can't even be charitable anymore with people. They just take advantage. Are you going to sell it afterwards?

[enkeivette]

There is bodywork, windshield replacement and upholstery shampooing at the end of the tunnel. :)

If the paint is pretty faded, single stage might be a better match. Or, you could spike some of the clear with reducer.

I know a guy who will match it if you take off the fuel door and leave it with him.

[Damian]

There is bodywork, windshield replacement and upholstery shampooing at the end of the tunnel. :)

For the windshield, head down to Pick A Part down Beach Blvd, they have a bunch of glass down there and will swap it out pretty cheap. There is another Pick A Part up north that has a huge selection of glass, Ive used that one before and they did a great job.

[kdracer73]

If the paint is pretty faded, single stage might be a better match. Or, you could spike some of the clear with reducer.

I know a guy who will match it if you take off the fuel door and leave it with him.

One of the front fenders is crumpled bad and will need to be changed...

My glass guy is doing Frankie's son's windshield Tuesday and I'll get a quote. Hooked Sean up with him a few years ago....

[Vettezuki]

One of the front fenders is crumpled bad and will need to be changed...

My glass guy is doing Frankie's son's windshield Tuesday and I'll get a quote. Hooked Sean up with him a few years ago....

Thanks Paul.

LAKQ has the fender for like $160 in the same color supposedly.

[injdinjn]

Penzoil and Quaker State used to build up in motors like that, they had parafin wax as part of the oil product.

I won't tell what I traded for it, but in 1973 I traded for this 61 GMC 3/4 ton V6. I changed the oil and have never seen anything that black before and the paper filter in the canister fell apart when I tried to lift it out. I put about 30K on that truck hauling motorcycles to the desert and it ran like a top and never smoked or used oil.

[Vettezuki]

Changed registration to on road and got a moving permit since it idled fine and didn't overheat. Took out tonight. I figured the gas must be not so good, and filled the remaining quater tank with fresh gas. Well, it ran like shit. At the moment I'm figuring that's just too much gas degraded beyond use at all, even with the 4 gallons fresh gas. So I started pumping it out, the hard way. One of the connectors onthe pump was being really obstinate, so I didn't want to break it, so I just hooked up my little hand pump to the fuel line out of the pump and started pumping. It'll take a solid hour or two by hand to emptythat take <1 oz at a time. But I'm really curious to see how it behave with all fresh gas.

So that I'm not worried about yet. What I am worried about is that the oil pressure light went on. It happened during a slight climb and when it was misfiring like a mofo, so I'm thinking it's related to the misfire, we'll see. If the gas makes it run smooth(er) on the road and it happens again, not sure what's going on, other than that my fear of some shit clearing out from the valleys and galleys as collected on the pickup again. At least I know the procuedure for removing the pan, so it won't take near as long.

Other concern driving is that it was gutless, while I attribute this to gas (no energy in the fuel), the tans wasn't behaving very nicely.

Anyway, fresh gas, try again.

[Vettezuki]

Put in all new gas and changed plug wires (it was missing like a mofo). Basically it runs more or less fine. Doesn't overheat, lose coolant or oil that I can see. The next step is smog.

A side not is that within 30 miles of driving or so, the oil pressure warning light flickers, then comes on. I don't know if there is just junk that came loose from the pump itself, etc., and piling up on the screen over time or if something else is going on. You can stop just for a minute or two and restart and it's fine again for a while. I'll check the oil in the morning and see if it needs any topping off for any reason. I also might put in some heavy oil as something is ticking. Nothing horrendous and it runs more or less fine, but it's not quite right either.

[Vettezuki]

Here's hoping there's nothing wrong with the cat, because while most things are cheap on the car, a new cat OE cat (can't find a 50 state legal for 2007) after tax is, I shit you not, $1,800. That's just.the.cat. I still think that can't be right, but he repeated himself after questions and pointed to it on the parts diagram. WTF?

[blackax]

Here's hoping there's nothing wrong with the cat, because while most things are cheap on the car, a new cat OE cat (can't find a 50 state legal for 2007) after tax is, I shit you not, $1,800. That's just.the.cat. I still think that can't be right, but he repeated himself after questions and pointed to it on the parts diagram. WTF?

Can you find any aftermarket CAT, cuz 1800 is crazy, that half the value of the car in perfect shape.

[blackax]

How many miles are on this thing?

[Vettezuki]

107k miles.

Yes there are 49 state aftermarket cats of varying quality. There appears even to be a 50 state for an earlier model. I have a friend in AZ I could have it shipped to and have him forward to me if necessary. If it looked basically identical and functioned, I don't think any tech down the line would be alerted to any formal non-compliance issue. I'm going to pull the cat tonight and take a look inside and see if there is any obvious destruction.

[Vettezuki]

the primary problem with the cat is that there isn't one... It's just an empty can.

[kdracer73]

the primary problem with the cat is that there isn't one... It's just an empty can.

Well, there's your problem....

And that might explain the muffler noise .... that cat material went somewhere!

[Vettezuki]

I'm thinking they might have rednecked something. It's perfectly clean. Anyway, now what? Are there CARB legal cats for this thing in the few hundred dollar range? If so then I soldier on but if not may be time to punt. Mmmm.

[blackax]

I'm thinking the mIght have rednecked something. It's perfectly clean. Anyway, now what? Are there CARB legal cats for this thing in the few hundred dollar range? If so then I soldier on but if not may be time to punt. Mmmm.

From all my looking I cant find a carb legal cat for that car. Just get a 49 state cat and get it smoged right away.

[Damian]

I would think that you can get an OEM cat that will still work but newer vehicles don't need the sniffer test anymore: http://www.check-smog.com/check-smog/post/2012/08/13/What-Does-AB-2289-Mean-for-Consumers-Needed-to-Smog-Check-Their-Vehicles.aspx

[Vettezuki]

I would think that you can get an OEM cat that will still work but newer vehicles don't need the sniffer test anymore: http://www.check-smog.com/check-smog/post/2012/08/13/What-Does-AB-2289-Mean-for-Consumers-Needed-to-Smog-Check-Their-Vehicles.aspx

My understanding is that hasn't been implemented yet because the computer systems need to updated.

[Vettezuki]

Fucking CA, I swear. Magnaflow has one built to OEM ODBII CALIFONRIA Standards (!) but it's technically only 49 state legal. (This has to do with the racket run by the local mafia known as the state government.) And yes, really, the OE is $1,800. . .

Anyway, part no.: 49352

[Damian]

The STAR program is already going, the Typhoon falls under that category. That was earlier this year too. I'd just get the Magnaflow one and go to the same smog shop I went to over by Costco.

[Vettezuki]

The STAR program is already going, the Typhoon falls under that category. That was earlier this year too. I'd just get the Magnaflow one and go to the same smog shop I went to over by Costco.

Sounds good. Do they poke around under the hood at all, or just plug in?

[Damian]

He looked around just to make sure everything is there. My cat isn't stock at all and he didn't even look at it. I don't think they are gonna go over everything with a fine tooth comb on a car like that, maybe if you had other stuff that wasn't stock on it.

[kdracer73]

The STAR program is already going, the Typhoon falls under that category. That was earlier this year too. I'd just get the Magnaflow one and go to the same smog shop I went to over by Costco.

The Star program is running, but Star is more for rating shops and technicians.. The OBD changes have not taken effect yet... the smog machines still use dial up modems! They are 1997 technology and the new machines are not out yet. Our shop has been selected for Beta testing, and we still don't have the equipment yet.

[kdracer73]

Sounds good. Do they poke around under the hood at all, or just plug in?
They still are supposed to do a visual inspection. The problem is the Aveo cat is a cast piece that bolts to the manifold. If a cat is welded in, not in stock configuration, it is considered modified. We are supposed to inspect the part numbers etched into the cat, record them, cross reference them with the state database for OE certification . But some (MOST) techs are lazy ( hence the Star program rating ).

I have cars all the time that fail for illegal cats , come in the shop.

[Vettezuki]

The Magnflow is supposed to be a zero mod direct fit, bolt in. Part no 49352 is supposedly built to CA emissions spec on top of that. I don't know what the OE piece looked like exactly, cuz what's in there isn't it I don't think, but the Magnaflow should look right (bol tin) and pass the sniffer fine. :huh:

[enkeivette]

Ya, I welded my old Corvette magnaflow cat on the Neon when I upgraded to 3" pipes, no one noticed.

[Vettezuki]

Sort of making progress. . . slooowwly.

Received cat yesterday. Put brand new cat and brand new OE correct O2 sensors on. Reset codes and started driving. Mostly "felt" ok, except the O2 Heater Code still got thrown. More on that in a bit.

So got a chance to run it diagnostically today, and the emissions are all over the damn place, rich, lean, high HC ok HC, hi NOX, ok, NOX, rich, lean. The ECU is apparently struggling to control the A/F.

Took it home, drove around a little more monitoring upstream down stream O2 voltage. Upustream is between .1 and .8 which seems correct, and downstream seems pretty stable around .1 HOWEVER, the upstream swings almost randomly between .1 and .8., very rarely does it settle on anything, including while cruising under a constant steady load. This seems very strange to me. What say you? Normal, or damage to wiring and or ECU somewhere???

The heater circuit for the O2 seems to be driven by the ECU, not on a fuse or anything, so maybe that's just toast and why I keep getting P0038 and P0039.

The fan has not been working, on the dyno, she overheated pretty quickly given that it was under load, but with no air. Fortunately, that was just a bad connection. Some monkey broke the connnector so it's just the prongs stuck in the ECU connect side for now, but it works correctly, and comes on low as I'd expect around 190, with AC at any temp, etc. Also got the timing belt cover on, which wasn't too bad.

So, very slow progress but something. Anyway, what ya's think about the O2 voltage?

NOTE: The plugs look ok, and I'm not getting any misfires. The air filter is not clean, but not filthy either, so I don't think either of these are really causing grief.

[kdracer73]

The up stream o2 sensor should range from .900-.100 fairly quickly. Most inexpensive data streamers don't have a fast enough refresh rate to keep up. We look at the data in milliseconds on a good scanner.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad94/kdracer73/motorgen%20stuff/download_zps9c40a0da.jpg (http://s925.photobucket.com/user/kdracer73/media/motorgen%20stuff/download_zps9c40a0da.jpg.html)
When we ran the Aveo on the dyno, the Co and Hc was extremely high. Passing spec is around .40% and the readings where 4.0% and the second time I ran it, the hc and co where low, but the Nox was over 1000 parts per million.


For the cat conv to work, the mixture has to change. The cat stores o2 (reducing Nox) when lean, to burn off the carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons ( co is partially burnt fuel-hc raw fuel,simply) when rich.

I will do some research when I get back to work Monday....

[Vettezuki]

The up stream o2 sensor should range from .900-.100 fairly quickly. Most inexpensive data streamers don't have a fast enough refresh rate to keep up. We look at the data in milliseconds on a good scanner.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad94/kdracer73/motorgen%20stuff/download_zps9c40a0da.jpg (http://s925.photobucket.com/user/kdracer73/media/motorgen%20stuff/download_zps9c40a0da.jpg.html)
When we ran the Aveo on the dyno, the Co and Hc was extremely high. Passing spec is around .40% and the readings where 4.0% and the second time I ran it, the hc and co where low, but the Nox was over 1000 parts per million.


For the cat conv to work, the mixture has to change. The cat stores o2 (reducing Nox) when lean, to burn off the carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons ( co is partially burnt fuel-hc raw fuel,simply) when rich.

I will do some research when I get back to work Monday....

Ok, well, definitely it was oscillating in that kind pattern, though my refresh rate was slow. Now, when you had it on the dyno, did you say the upstream was just sitting at .1? Anyway, that's NOT what I'm getting, but my rate is probably only a few times a second at most.

My biggest concern at the moment is damaging the brand new O2s and Cat. By the same token I wonder if the total learning "circuit" just takes a few hundred miles. The ECU definitely had some miles on it from a terrible condition, so maybe it's still "learning" those away? :huh:

[Damian]

It should still see good working O2 sensors and correct itself rather quickly. It will take some time to correct its fuel trims though, but even then, that should only take about 15 miles to adjust itself.

Some things to consider is coolant temp sensor, MAP sensor, and even TPS. Coolant temp sensor is really cheap to change out of the 3. You wouldn't happen to know what the A/F ratio is do you?

A dirty air filter could cause it to have unburnt fuel too since the ECU can only pull so much fuel, but then Id think you would get a system too rich code if it was too bad.

[Vettezuki]

It should still see good working O2 sensors and correct itself rather quickly. It will take some time to correct its fuel trims though, but even then, that should only take about 15 miles to adjust itself.

Some things to consider is coolant temp sensor, MAP sensor, and even TPS. Coolant temp sensor is really cheap to change out of the 3. You wouldn't happen to know what the A/F ratio is do you?

A dirty air filter could cause it to have unburnt fuel too since the ECU can only pull so much fuel, but then Id think you would get a system too rich code if it was too bad.

Unfortunately this ECU does not support AF measured only commanded. That's why I was gonna borrow Adam's LM2 so I can at least see what it is sitting there, which should be dead balls on stoichiometric.

I'll change the plugs even though they look ok, since I have a new set and the air filter just to remove those as parameters. There is no indication anything is wrong with the coolant temp sensor. I do wonder a little about the MAP sensor, this system does not use a MAF. Also does a brand new cat take any time to "burn in"? :huh: I wouldn't think so, but figured I'd ask. This is a Cali-spec cat from Magnaflow, direct fit, looks OEM, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that, the O2s are OEM NTK direct fit.

[Vettezuki]

Who knows how shitty flowing the injectors are . . .

[Shaolin Crane]

New cats definitely take time to burn in.

[Damian]

I wouldn't think it takes too long for a cat to break in. Mine was fine with less than 10 miles on it. Put a high load on it, I'm pretty sure that would do the trick??

[Shaolin Crane]

I've had to drive them as much as a few hundred miles to get them to come in.

[Vettezuki]

I've had to drive them as much as a few hundred miles to get them to come in.

Thanks for the info. I was definitely wondering if there might be a break-in period. I'm at just over 200 miles, and it's running ok. I am getting the kind of sweeping pattern on the upstream O2 voltage. But the A/F and emissions are swinging rich/lean, high HC/NOX respectively.

[kdracer73]

This car is doing some funky shit ! I have never really had problems with new cats, if the rest of the system is working ok. Most 2007 cars we test are blowing numbers in the 0.02= 0.09 % range...this thing is blowing over 4% co. My Camaro with a cam and no cat probably blows about that.

[Vettezuki]

Decided to change the AF and plugs. The AF was much dirtier than I suspected from a first glance. Couldn't have been helping. The plugs weren't terrible, but a little burnt' worn. Curiously looking down in the cylinders, No. 4 was "wet", with what I don't know, and dirty looking. Drove it around a bit. It drives fine for what it is, more perky definitely. Gave it a couple WOT romps from a stop to see how it would respond and it did fine. Some kind of smell afterward, don't know what it is as I've never smelled that smell before. Maybe some manufacturing remnants from the cat that glot blasted. :huh: I don't want to do much like this as if it is consistently running lean under load that's going to thrash the new O2s and Cat.

Checked cylinder 4 after about 40 miles of driving and was much cleaner and dry. So there just might be some cleanliness and function issues that are getting worked out with use.

I'm wondering if the P0037/38 will clear themselves after some number of otherwise faultless driving. The only readiness tests not yet cleared are Catalyst and O2 sensors.

Also noticed the gas cap does not secure, just turns, doesn't seal. Should I care? The evap system readiness passed. :huh:

[Vettezuki]

Regarding primary causes for high CO, No. 1 was absolutely true. I don't have any cause for suspecting anything else though.

Below are common faults which are likely to produce high Carbon Monoxides (CO). Carbon Monoxide is a by-product of incomplete combustion. Carbon Monoxide exceeding maximum limits, can be due to a number of emission failures ranging from inadequate air intake to defective engine computer sensors.

1. Dirty Air Filter - The number one overlooked emissions component, yes, "emissions" component is the engine air filter. A dirty air filter will absolutely restrict air flow, thus disturbing the proper 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio required for optimum fuel combustion.

We recommend replacing the air filter at the manufacturer's required intervals; usually every 15,000 miles, or at least before your vehicle's smog check.

2. Faulty Oxygen Sensor (O2 Sensor) The Oxygen Sensor is responsibly for delivering information to the ECU (engine control unit) or ECM (engine control module) relating to the oxygen content in the exhaust stream after it has left the combustion chambers.

The engine control computer will determine how much fuel to inject into the combustion chambers based on this data. The more oxygen in the stream, the more fuel the computer will deliver, and visa-versa. A defective O2 sensor will cause increased carbon monoxide emissions. More about oxygen sensors.

3. Defective Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor - The MAP sensor determines the level of vacuum created during an engine's intake stroke, and sends this information to the ECU. During low vacuum the MAP sensor assumes the engine's throttle is in some degree open, meaning you've stepped on the pedal. It relays this information to the ECU. The ECU, in turn, sends commands to the fuel injectors, or carburetor, to increase fuel delivery.

A defective MAP sensor will not report the correct information to the ECU, thus disturbing air/fuel ratio. Usually when the ECU senses a defective MAP sensor it will learn to ignore its data, and rely on preset values, and other sensors such as the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), and Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor; Fuel delivery will not be as accurate and high CO may result.



4. Defective Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) - Obviously a very important emissions sensor; the TPS relays information regarding the position of the air intake system's throttle plate. The throttle plate, located after the engine air filter and before the intake manifold controls the amount of air entering the combustion chambers. It is usually manipulated by the gas pedal via a cable. On late model vehicles the throttle plate may be controlled electronically. A defective throttle position sensor will confuse the ECU into thinking the vehicle's operator is demanding more or less fuel, when neither is really neccessary. Most often a faulty TPS will cause high CO, as an engine's ECU always prefers to send more fuel rather then less, in an effort to avoid a lean fuel mixture and subsequently higher engine temperatures.

5. Defective Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor - Low engine temperature requires more fuel. When the ECU is unable to determine what the engine's accurate temperature is, it will not adjust fuel delivery properly; resulting in high CO. As explained above, the Engine Control Computer prefers to send more fuel rather then less to avoid a lean fuel mixture.

[Damian]

The coolant temp sensor could be your problem. It helps your ECU know if its up to temp and then switches over to closed loop. A lot of cars have 2 different sensors, one for your gauge and one for your ECU. If the one for the ECU is bad, youre stuck in open loop all the time, it just takes forever to get up to temp. On the flip side, Id still think that you would throw a code for it, cant think of it off the top of my head. But I have seen this before on one of my uncle's Saturn. Replaced the ECU coolant sensor and everything ran much better.

[Vettezuki]

The coolant temp sensor could be your problem. It helps your ECU know if its up to temp and then switches over to closed loop. A lot of cars have 2 different sensors, one for your gauge and one for your ECU. If the one for the ECU is bad, youre stuck in open loop all the time, it just takes forever to get up to temp. On the flip side, Id still think that you would throw a code for it, cant think of it off the top of my head. But I have seen this before on one of my uncle's Saturn. Replaced the ECU coolant sensor and everything ran much better.

There's only one coolant temp sensor on the Aveo. I have no reason to believe it's not working as I'm reading the temp from ODBII directly, it matches the gauge, coolant flows through the upper rad hose when I'd expect (which is mechanical thermostat AFIK), etc. The MAP sensor is kind of expensive, but the coolant sensor is pretty cheap, so maybe I'll change it just to eliminate it as a parameter.

[Vettezuki]

Reset the codes, which are only P0037/38, HO2S heater circuit. I'm guessing this is an ECU problem as the driver for the heater circuit is direct from the ECU. LKQ looks like they have one for about $100 and they have a 30 day return, so an easy check.

[Vettezuki]

Replaced ECU today and it did something interesting. At first it didn't throw any codes, much longer than before. Then it threw only P0037 (usually it was 37 and 38 right away) but also P0131. So I *think* there was an issue with the ECU driver for the heater circuits and the new ecu doesn't have it, but there is some kind of wiring issue to the upstream O2 as it is brand new. :huh:

Hypothesis: Some wiring issue between ECU and HO2S 1:1.

As for 131

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0131

NOTE: this probably happened while sitting there idling and sucking in some more SeaFoam, it's pretty cool out and a little humid so that might be related. :huh:

Also, and more concerning, I seemed to loose a little coolant, but I think that was on Monday or Tuesday when I ran the AC a bit. Any reason running AC would cause you to lose coolant? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.

Hypothesis: None


Taking off the oil cap I saw a little milkiness under it. The oil is clean and the head/cams are getting oild properly. Is that water? Maybe just from the atmosphere? Gulp . .

Hypothesis: Little condensation from atmosphere through an oil cap that's not completely sealed. Gulp, some subtle small crack or coolant leak in the head or block into the oil.

[Shaolin Crane]

Replaced ECU today and it did something interesting. At first it didn't throw any codes, much longer than before. Then it threw only P0037 (usually it was 37 and 38 right away) but also P0131. So I *think* there was an issue with the ECU driver for the heater circuits and the new ecu doesn't have it, but there is some kind of wiring issue to the upstream O2 as it is brand new. :huh:

Hypothesis: Some wiring issue between ECU and HO2S 1:1.

As for 131

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0131

NOTE: this probably happened while sitting there idling and sucking in some more SeaFoam, it's pretty cool out and a little humid so that might be related. :huh:

Also, and more concerning, I seemed to loose a little coolant, but I think that was on Monday or Tuesday when I ran the AC a bit. Any reason running AC would cause you to lose coolant? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.

Hypothesis: None


Taking off the oil cap I saw a little milkiness under it. The oil is clean and the head/cams are getting oild properly. Is that water? Maybe just from the atmosphere? Gulp . .

Hypothesis: Little condensation from atmosphere through an oil cap that's not completely sealed. Gulp, some subtle small crack or coolant leak in the head or block into the oil.

You can use a sniffer to check for gasses in the coolant, Test strips can test for coolant in the oil.

[Vettezuki]

You can use a sniffer to check for gasses in the coolant, Test strips can test for coolant in the oil.

kdracer73 helped me with checking the coolant resevoir and it was fine (no hydrocarbons in the coolant). If I'm just using distilled water for coolant now, would the strips indicate "coolant" in the oil? I ask because I imagine the strips are might be checking for some chemical in anti-freeze that doesn't exist in distilled water. And where do I get said strips?

NOTE: "New" ECU is now throwing same codes (and now misfires for some reaon) the last one was, which indicates the primary problem is probably between the ECU and HO2S with some kind of short, as far as the heating circuit is concerned. Yuck. . . I wouldn't be bothering if the damn thing wasn't basically "running" fine. Just something fing up emissions.

[Shaolin Crane]

kdracer73 helped me with checking the coolant resevoir and it was fine (no hydrocarbons in the coolant). If I'm just using distilled water for coolant now, would the strips indicate "coolant" in the oil? I ask because I imagine the strips are might be checking for some chemical in anti-freeze that doesn't exist in distilled water. And where do I get said strips?

NOTE: "New" ECU is now throwing same codes (and now misfires for some reaon) the last one was, which indicates the primary problem is probably between the ECU and HO2S with some kind of short, as far as the heating circuit is concerned. Yuck. . . I wouldn't be bothering if the damn thing wasn't basically "running" fine. Just something fing up emissions.

I'm not sure, I use to get the strips from Eddy, but you can probably get them at Vatozone or NAPA

[Damian]

Im wondering if there might be some ECU differences, even with the same year car. For example, my old Eclipse. They offered the same manual trans 3.0l V6 from 2000 to 2005. BUT, they had many different variations of ECUs, even with Eclipses with the same exact options, plus you had the issues with the immobilizer as well. Some of the big differences were the locations of the pinouts on the ECU were swapped around. Maybe youre experiencing the same thing???

[Vettezuki]

No. It plugged right in and started right up. LKQ had a list of many ECUs for the year overlaps and there were options, but the matched service numbers. I think it was the right ECU, just didn't solve the problem.

I realized tonight I had, probably Paul's, spark plug wire tester (inductive light thingy) and so I fig'rd after swapping the ECU I'd see how the new wires were lighting up. Well, two of the four were fairly intermittant and a weaker light. Tomorrow night I'm going to swap out packs and see what that gets me. . .

In any event, after brand new OEM O2 sensors and swapping out computers and still getting P0037/8, in highly confident there is some sort of wiring issue between the ECU and sensors. It might just be the heater circuit wires, but it might be more and that's not providing good data to the ECU so it can't function correctly.

Checked plugs tonight while I was at it and they were pristine and there was no junk or wetness in any of the cylinders as one would expect. But they do still have carbon deposits. I don't know how clean piston surfaces are supposed to be under regular conditions though. I can say that I've done sea foam through the intake twice over a couple hundred miles and in both cases it has blown out a stunning amount of shit. So the engine may still be in a process of cleaning itself by running from its previous highly abused state.

[Shaolin Crane]

For most vehicles even a few weeks difference between build dates could have a different ECU, location of sale included. Vehicle might start, but it being the proper one, well that's different, power strokes have about. Different ECM's per year, usually interchangeable, but sometimes not,

[Vettezuki]

For most vehicles even a few weeks difference between build dates could have a different ECU, location of sale included. Vehicle might start, but it being the proper one, well that's different, power strokes have about. Different ECM's per year, usually interchangeable, but sometimes not,

LQK had a large list of possible ECMs for make/model/year. They matched the service number off the back of mine. It basically ran the same and was eventually throwing the exact same codes, plus misfires (you couldn't feel them, just codes). But I think that was a newly emergent phenomena.

[Vettezuki]

Major props to ls1z28 for helping me sort the issued. Turned out there was a section of the harness that had been impacted and melted, so basically just a short. Taped them up and loomed back together, cleared codes and . . no more codes! He also noticed exhaust leaks at the flex pipe and the muffler itself, which he said could easily throw off the sniffer as it would be cyphoning in air. So I'll get a new muffler and flex pipe this week and take it back for diagnostics and *hopefully* actual smog run next Saturday.

[BADDASSC6]

How much cash are you into it right now?.

[kdracer73]

Glad you found some cause ! We have been busy with family stuff the past few weeks, and I didn't have any time to spend, but a few minutes here and there!

[Vettezuki]

How much cash are you into it right now?.

All in, including DMV, gas, oil, paying off old loan, blah blah, gotta be pushing $3k.

Making it purty after smog, is probably going to be in the $500 range depending on how lucky or not I am with LKQ/PA'P. "If" I can sell for mid $3k, which by then will be a nice/clean running econo car I'll come out around flat. If I were in a different financial spot, I probably just would have eaten the $2k, but with business debt and now a non-trivial monthly nut to crack in helping to pay for my dad's assisted living, it's pretty much hand to mouth for now.

[Vettezuki]

Glad you found some cause ! We have been busy with family stuff the past few weeks, and I didn't have any time to spend, but a few minutes here and there!

Your help has been vital in helping to identify, and just as importantly eliminate problems.

[Damian]

That's awesome! Glad you were able to finally figure it out.

[Vettezuki]

Bare wires no worky so good.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/1160/Aveo_Wires.jpg

[Vettezuki]

Ordered Front Pipe and Muffler. Hopefully they get here by Friday.

[Damian]

I bet that stock cat worked fine after all??

[Vettezuki]

I bet that stock cat worked fine after all??

Well, it's an aftermarket, not stock and it should . . . but we'll find out.

[Vettezuki]

Got a new front pipe today as I thought that's where an exhast leak was coming from. In taking it off I realized two bolts had come off the cat. (Magnaflow only sends nuts and bolts, no washers, lock washers.) So I thought, well, maybe that's where the exhaust leak was coming from and decide to run a bunch of water through the front pipe to see if it leaked from the flex section or anywhere else. Nope. So that's good news as I can send it back. I went to Home Depot and got new bolts, plus washers and lock nuts, and put it back together with some red loctite. Hopefully I don't have to take off the cat, cuz it might not be so easy now. At least the damn nuts should fall off.

Technically it's ready for a test. No MIL and there is only one DTC for the Catalyst. I hope to get the muffler on Saturday morning, slap it on and roll to have a diagnostic run done. If it's making it, run for reals and then the primary hurtle will be complete.

Curiously the downstream O2 is putting out different data than before. The upstream sweeps, but the downstream is pretty stable at around .6 - .7, instead of .1-.2. From what I've read this is either just fine or a little rich. Under load it pops up to .9, which indicates a bit rich as you'd expect. I suppose the computer is trying to tailor fuel trims. It still has <100 miles since lastcode reset after wiring adventure.

[Vettezuki]

There is definitely a radiator leak. Or some coolant leak around a hose to/from the radiator on the driver side. But it's moderate, so I'm not going to worry about it until it passes smog.Then I'll pull it have a rad shop check/fix. There was/is literally sand/dirt setting in the reservoir from somewhere. Probabbly a leftover from when the car was sitting with an empty rad. :huh:

[Damian]

Could be the hose itself too.

[Vettezuki]

Returned the unnecessarry ECU. Looks like LKQ has a fender in the right color in oregon for $125. Once I pass smog I'll turn my attention to cosmetic stuff. Unfortunately, LKQ doesn't carry trim pieces, or air dam, etc. So there might be a moderate amount of rooting around to make it look good.

[Vettezuki]

New muffler came in today in just enough time to race down for a Smog test. It passed! It's pretty clean on everythign except HC, which remain highish, but in allowable range. (54 ppm where 61ppm is the limit and 4 is the average.) Maybe it's just the computer still sorting out fuel trims, who knows. After muffler and smog, put on some new front tires to match the rears, so it has a decent set of shoes now. Now it's on details, like a new fender, windshield, getting the passenger door to open and so on, but it's getting there and will all and all be in very good condition when I'm done.

The Fender, which is in the right color, is only $125. Pick a Part will do windshield for $85 if they can find an Aveo, $120 with new glass. Probably just a couple weeks until it's ready for sale. I'll drive it a little bit myself first to make sure that I'm passing on something in total good faith.

[enkeivette]

I'll drive it a little bit myself first to make sure that I'm passing on something in total good faith.

They dont make em like you anymore.

[94cobra69ss396]

That's a higher allowable limit then my '94 Cobra, WTF!

[Damian]

That's because they want your 19 year old car off the roads.

[Vettezuki]

That's a higher allowable limit then my '94 Cobra, WTF!

I don't know, but it might be a combination of all the emissions depending on car and engine type and remember this car gets mid 30 mpg pretty easily so total resource consumption (fuel economy) might factor into the rules. But I don't really know.

[Vettezuki]

They dont make em like you anymore.

My basic life philosophy is the golden rule, and if everyone did it to their ability, this place would be pretty much perfect right now as far as human interactions were concerned.

[enkeivette]

The Cobra prob just had a much more efficient design, better combustion chamber and higher compression equals better combustion and less waste.

The levels have to be based off of a stock model.

[94cobra69ss396]

I just looked at the smog printout for the Cobra and the max for 15 mph was 59, the max for 25 mph is 34. What speed was the 61?

The Cobra prob just had a much more efficient design, better combustion chamber and higher compression equals better combustion and less waste.

The levels have to be based off of a stock model.

I highly doubt that my '94 pushrod V8 was cleaner than a 2007 DOHC L4.

[enkeivette]

I just looked at the smog printout for the Cobra and the max for 15 mph was 59, the max for 25 mph is 34. What speed was the 61?



I highly doubt that my '94 pushrod V8 was cleaner than a 2007 DOHC L4.

I dont. Top fuel dragsters burn clean with no smog equip. The aveo engine was designed to keep costs down, your engine was designed better.

Just because it has a 1" throttle body and doesnt use much fuel doesnt mean that its burning it all.

[Vettezuki]

15mph Max-Ave-Meas
25mph Max-Ave-Meas

HC
61-4-54
45-4-25

CO
.54-.01-.07
.53-.01-.02

NO
467-16-79
754-15-120


Pretty good overall for an engine that was abused. Only low mph HC is concerning and who knows what the root causes are.


Did put in my paperwork today at AAA and got my sticker, so it's street legal (minus all the shit that isn't like no right turn signal, broekn windshield, etc.)

Re: Turn Signal
Took out the headlamp and there is no socket for the turn signal bulb and now connector to the socket from the harness. The harness pigtail was just turned back into the chasis, so I'll have to locate a socket and connector and wire that up.

Will get the windshield done at Pick A' Part and the Fender is coming.

[enkeivette]

15mph Max-Ave-Meas
25mph Max-Ave-Meas

HC
61-4-54
45-4-25

CO
.54-.01-.07
.53-.01-.02

NO
467-16-79
754-15-120


Pretty good overall for an engine that was abused. Only low mph HC is concerning and who knows what the root causes are.


Did put in my paperwork today at AAA and got my sticker, so it's street legal (minus all the shit that isn't like no right turn signal, broekn windshield, etc.)

Re: Turn Signal
Took out the headlamp and there is no socket for the turn signal bulb and now connector to the socket from the harness. The harness pigtail was just turned back into the chasis, so I'll have to locate a socket and connector and wire that up.

Will get the windshield done at Pick A' Part and the Fender is coming.

They sell universal sockets at Kragen. The C3 socket is the same one thats in an S10. So I wouldnt be surprised if you found something.

[94cobra69ss396]

15mph Max-Ave-Meas
25mph Max-Ave-Meas

HC
61-4-54
45-4-25

CO
.54-.01-.07
.53-.01-.02

NO
467-16-79
754-15-120


Pretty good overall for an engine that was abused. Only low mph HC is concerning and who knows what the root causes are.

Cobra
HC
59-21-48
34-14-32

CO
.34-.01-.17
.32-.01-.15

NO
484-238-14
498-240-26

The guy who did mine said the high HC is due to ignition and said that if I had the MSD box working they would have been lower. However, he also ran the 25 mph in 3rd gear instead of 2nd which would also have lowered it.

[Vettezuki]

Picked up the fender today. As I feared, it's not the same color, more of an aqua than the blue. So, I'll need to get it matched.

enkeivette, hook a brother up?

I did get a new windshield on Tuesday. Pick a Part glass dude die a fine job for $120, new glass. All other quotes were $150 and up.

Also ordered a set of OEM hub caps. Kind of expensive at $70 for the set shipped, but the ones that are on are literally destroyed and look like shit. It's this kind of stuff that makes a big difference in how the car comes off to a buyer, so while trying to keep the costs down, gotta make it a little prettier.

[Vettezuki]

I got the Aveo running for me pretty good. Put more than 1k miles on it. Sold to employee, blew HG first day, overheated and nearly melted top end. Maybe it was just that crappy fan connector, but I think it happened while driving around normal so who knows. Of course I took it back, not gonna stick that on an employee. But in any event, I'm done with that Christine POS. Fortunately ls1z28 will take it as parts car trade for doing the engine swap on the Miata. Yeah. That happened too . . .

Kind of burnt out on cars right now.

[blackax]

I got the Aveo running for me pretty good. Put more than 1k miles on it. Sold to employee, blew HG first day, overheated and nearly melted top end. Maybe it was just that crappy fan connector, but I think it happened while driving around normal so who knows. Of course I took it back, not gonna stick that on an employee. But in any event, I'm done with that Christine POS. Fortunately ls1z28 will take it as parts car trade for doing the engine swap on the Miata. Yeah. That happened too . . .

Kind of burnt out on cars right now.

Damn That sucks.

[Leedom]

Sorry to hear that Ben. At least now it is gone. What happened to the Miata?

[Vettezuki]

Sorry to hear that Ben. At least now it is gone. What happened to the Miata?

Somehow it leaked out enough oil without me noticing to lose a main bearing.

[BADDASSC6]

Fucking shitty bro. When it rains it pours. If you want you can park you car at my house and maybe it will get stolen.

[enkeivette]

I got the Aveo running for me pretty good. Put more than 1k miles on it. Sold to employee, blew HG first day, overheated and nearly melted top end. Maybe it was just that crappy fan connector, but I think it happened while driving around normal so who knows. Of course I took it back, not gonna stick that on an employee. But in any event, I'm done with that Christine POS. Fortunately ls1z28 will take it as parts car trade for doing the engine swap on the Miata. Yeah. That happened too . . .

Kind of burnt out on cars right now.

Oh ya, wasnt I going to spray this for you? Im around on the weekends

[enkeivette]

I got the Aveo running for me pretty good. Put more than 1k miles on it. Sold to employee, blew HG first day, overheated and nearly melted top end. Maybe it was just that crappy fan connector, but I think it happened while driving around normal so who knows. Of course I took it back, not gonna stick that on an employee. But in any event, I'm done with that Christine POS. Fortunately ls1z28 will take it as parts car trade for doing the engine swap on the Miata. Yeah. That happened too . . .

Kind of burnt out on cars right now.

Woah, fuck balls. Its a sad situation. Because you dont want to ruin your relationship with your employee, but if they knew their ass from a hole in the ground they would have pulled over before any catastrophic damage occurred.

That car just did not want to live.

[Vettezuki]

Just a note on emissions. Paul, who I gave the Devil Aveo to in trade for an engine swap on the Protege, completely went through the car and rebuilt the engine. It's borderline new. Worked out for time because his step son wrecked his car, so he's driving the Aveo now. As for emissions, after the rebuild, which included a super cleaning of the engine and heads, it was something more lik 6ppm on hydrocarbons.