ticky ticky ticky

[Vettezuki]

Well, hope it's just a loose rocker. Kind of sounds like it. We'll see tomorrow night if I get the time to pop the valve cover.

[Shaolin Crane]

I heard a ticky ticky and it turned out #3 piston was gone.

[Vettezuki]

Yeah, but that was a Ford.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yeah, but that was a vehicle driven by you.

Fixt.

[94cobra69ss396]

Is the car missing or does it just have a tick? How loud is the tick?

I heard a screech in the Cobra a couple days ago when pulling up to a light and then smoke came out from under the car. I already know it's the throwout bearing because it's been making noise and getting louder the past couple weeks. Now I have to pull the trans and install a new one. I just hope it didn't do anything to the pressure plate.

Guy and I have decided that Ford needs to hire us to test their vehicles.

[enkeivette]

Is it muffled? If not it might be an exhaust leak. If so, dump a quart of some cheap ATF in your engine and run it for a week to break up the build up (I'm thinking lifter). ATF has a high detergent content. Then put some decent synthetic oil in there (not Rotella, haha).

[enkeivette]

Guy and I have decided that Ford needs to hire us to test their vehicles.

I'm sure they would

[enkeivette]

I have a car stethoscope if you want to borrow it

[Vettezuki]

It is not particularly loud, but gets a little louder with engine load it seems. The rate is regular and goes with the RPM. It is a relatively higher pitched metallic sound, like tapping on a tin plate with a fork.

[Vettezuki]

I have a car stethoscope if you want to borrow it

Got plans this evening? :)

[enkeivette]

It is not particularly loud, but gets a little louder with engine load it seems. The rate is regular and goes with the RPM. It is a relatively higher pitched metallic sound, like tapping on a tin plate with a fork.

Sounds like an exhaust leak, can you post a video? I do have a lot to do today/ tonight. But if you want to stop by to pick up the stethoscope I'll take a listen. Let me make sure I still have it too.

[Vettezuki]

I'm not driving it in its current condition in case it is something fixing to get loose and cause a lot of damage. I'll just pop the cover and take a look for starters. If it isn't just a loose rocker, I'll take a video and post.

[Shaolin Crane]

I'm not driving it in its current condition in case it is something fixing to get loose and cause a lot of damage. I'll just pop the cover and take a look for starters. If it isn't just a loose rocker, I'll take a video and post.

Drove the cobra back from santa monica with a broken rocker stud. Ron has driven a ways with a broken rocker. You'll be fine.

[Vettezuki]

I don't know what it is. If an engine is making a sound it shouldn't I stop. It guarantees a potentially cheap thing doesn't get potentially expensive in a hurry.

[Shaolin Crane]

I don't know what it is. If an engine is making a sound it shouldn't I stop. It guarantees a potentially cheap thing doesn't get potentially expensive in a hurry.

Not all sounds are the same, if its only a few miles then I'd say you'll be ok.

[94cobra69ss396]

Usually a loose rocker on a hydrualic cam will be louder at idle (low oil pressure) and quieter with rpm due to the rockers pumping up.

[Vettezuki]

Well, it ain't the rocker. I'll take a video tomorrow night. This is kind of a bummer because I have essentially no money in the play money bucket. If it's anything serious it could get parked.

[enkeivette]

Exhaust leak is the only tick that gets louder under load. I've blown out several exhaust gaskets. Switched to copper gaskets with copper spray, zero issues for about 4 years now.

I'll stop by your place tomorrow or this weekend. Still getting home around 7?

[enkeivette]

PS, a tick aint serious. Unless youve been running it without oil and its a rod smacking around on the crank :o But that would be like NO OIL, for awhile. Otherwise dont worry.

[Vettezuki]

Exhaust leak is the only tick that gets louder under load. I've blown out several exhaust gaskets. Switched to copper gaskets with copper spray, zero issues for about 4 years now.

I'll stop by your place tomorrow or this weekend. Still getting home around 7?

Yes. Let me know, it'd be nice to get a second opinion. It's obviously not right whatever it is. But because it doesn't do it hardly at all when not under load, I can't easily check it myself with my head in the engine bay. :) Your help will be much appreciated.

[Vettezuki]

Made a little video. I looped it and did some EQ to partially isolate the noise, it is most obvious around 1:43. Almost sounds like a diesel valve train.

Ticky Ticky - YouTube

[94cobra69ss396]

That sounds like a rod knock to me.

[Vettezuki]

That sounds like a rod knock to me.

Problem?
Cause?
Solution?

It did start happening on my way home the other night shortly during/after a WOT romp.

[94cobra69ss396]

Get a broom handle if you don't have a stethoscope, cut it down a little and use it to listen at the oil pan.

Numerous things can cause a rod knock but the most common I guess would be a loose rod bolt.

[Shaolin Crane]

Or use a long handle screw driver. Ron is right, loose rod bolt, spun bearings, etc.
Also sounds like cam knock, which the LS series are notorious for.

[Vettezuki]

So probably loose bolt(s) and worn bearings is what I'm looking at minimally. Anything involving the cam means pulling the engine. If I go that far, I'd probably do a bunch of things, like a typical car idiot. . .

[Shaolin Crane]

Not even worn bearings really, at least not with the cam Dick was telling me that he's seen factory stock engine with as much as .010 Gap on the bearings.

[Vettezuki]

The only things I heard from this engine before were a little piston slap during warm up and a little "typewriter" sound from the valve train. Pretty smooth otherwise. That's why this stuck out.

[94cobra69ss396]

Listen with a broom handle, stethoscope, screwdriver and see if you can determine where the sound is coming from. I don't know anything about the LS cam issue but if it's a rod knocking it will be the loudest under a heavy load. Since you have a manual trans the only way to load the engine is by driving it. Just get out on the main street and put it in third at a lower rpm and give it some throttle. If it's a rod issue it will rattle loud.

[Vettezuki]

Listen with a broom handle, stethoscope, screwdriver and see if you can determine where the sound is coming from. I don't know anything about the LS cam issue but if it's a rod knocking it will be the loudest under a heavy load. Since you have a manual trans the only way to load the engine is by driving it. Just get out on the main street and put it in third at a lower rpm and give it some throttle. If it's a rod issue it will rattle loud.

I can tell that's exactly the kind of conditions under which it makes the most noise. Coming home on the freeway when I first heard it I slowed down a bit and tried to cost and just nudge it. Whenever nudging it would get louder, when costing it didn't make any sound.

I'll try to double confirm with a stethoscope that it's coming from the pan area. Assuming that's it, I guess this is a matter of draining the oil (needs an oil change anyway thankfully) and removing the pan to see the rod connections to the crank.

[enkeivette]

It does sound like rod knock, but more muffled than what Ive heard in the past. I wouldn't necessarily settle on that. How many miles did this engine have on it when you installed it? Now?

And why the hell does everyone love pulling the engine out of their car? The crank might be fine, just pull the pan off, take the spark plugs out, unbolt the rods one at a time, and check it. The heads can stay on.

[enkeivette]

PS, cam can come out in the car, just yank the radiator.

PS PS, diesels are loud because of the fuel injectors

[enkeivette]

It has good oil pressure I'm assuming? I don't see why you would be having a clearance issue unless there was extreme neglect. And I know thats not that case

[Vettezuki]

It does sound like rod knock, but more muffled than what Ive heard in the past. I wouldn't necessarily settle on that. How many miles did this engine have on it when you installed it? Now?

And why the hell does everyone love pulling the engine out of their car? The crank might be fine, just pull the pan off, take the spark plugs out, unbolt the rods one at a time, and check it. The heads can stay on.

Don't recall how many miles it had on it when I got it. I've put on about 12k and those are a fair portion of romping around, dozens of 1/4 mile runs, etc.

Everything is on a quick connect. I have a hoist and a stand. It's not necessarily all that difficult to pull the motor and have the convenience of working on it on a stand if it came to that.

[enkeivette]

Well it may not be rod knock, and if it is you may be able to get away with new bearings installed with the motor in the car. So dont cry yet

[94cobra69ss396]

I don't know what kind of clearance you have on a C3 but on the Chevelle and the Cobra there is no way to pull the oil pan without lifting the engine due to the crossmember. The only vehicle I would be able to pull the pan on is the Explorer because I cut the factory crossmember out and made a new one that is forward of the engine for the SAS.

[enkeivette]

Front cross member is in front of the motor in a C3, its a front-mid engine car. Two tie rods to move the steering arm out of the way and the car is just a pretty oversized engine stand.

[Shaolin Crane]

PS, cam can come out in the car, just yank the radiator.

PS PS, diesels are loud because of the fuel injectors

And because of the valve train,

[enkeivette]

906

[enkeivette]

And because of the valve train,

How is the valve train loud? The sound you hear in a diesel engine is the sound of the injectors opening and closing at insane rates of pressure.

[Shaolin Crane]

How is the valve train loud? The sound you hear in a diesel engine is the sound of the injectors opening and closing at insane rates of pressure.

That's not the only reason, ever heard a new diesel with hydraulic lifters? Near silent. Ever hear a new diesel with solid roller conversion? Fuckin loud again.

[enkeivette]

That's not the only reason, ever heard a new diesel with hydraulic lifters? Near silent. Ever hear a new diesel with solid roller conversion? Fuckin loud again.

How is that different from a gas solid lifter engine?

And quiet valve train or not, you can't escape the injector noise. Not even with all of the crap Mercedes puts on top of them to contain the sound

[Shaolin Crane]

How is that different from a gas solid lifter engine?

And quiet valve train or not, you can't escape the injector noise. Not even with all of the crap Mercedes puts on top of them to contain the sound

I didn't say you were wrong, its was just additional information. And its not different, diesels are crude vehicles, or at least they use to be and all of it combined makes them noisy. The new 6.7 AnAudi diesel are near silent.

[Vettezuki]

Well, enkeivette came over tonight and we took a listen. He thinks, along with Guy's original estimation and I agree with the logic of it anyway, that it probably is cam knock. The sound is most concentrated when listening with a stethoscope on the low back part of the intake closest to the block.

Not sure what the next step is, maybe change the oil for some heavy stuff and see if it's better or the same? Have Ron, Guy, or Paul come by and take a listen.

NOTE: While it's clean as a whistle underneath, something is consuming oil, we had to add a couple quarts. That was never a problem before, so I don't know if a couple rings have some gaps that are getting blown by as well. :huh: So maybe a leakdown test is in order.

I'm half tempted to just pull it and go through it, replace all bearings and swap out lifters and rockers and check pistons, replace rings and hone if needed.

[enkeivette]

Just to be sure you should pull off that drivers side rocker cover too.

[94cobra69ss396]

If it's not leaking the oil out then it is burning it. There are two ways it can burn oil, either it's getting passed the rings or it is being sucked into the intake. A leak down test will help figure that part out.

As for the knock, I don't know anything about cam knock and have never owned an LS. Guy can probably tell you about it or I can ask Phil if he's seen it before and what causes it.

[Shaolin Crane]

I pretty much already explained it, you're gonna need to pull the cam, mic it and order the appropriate sized bearings.

[enkeivette]

I suggested he run some super thick oil just for testing purposes. If the knock goes away then there is your answer. Maybe straight 50 weight racing oil. Anyone know of any cheap sources for straight 50 weight?

[94cobra69ss396]

I pretty much already explained it, you're gonna need to pull the cam, mic it and order the appropriate sized bearings.

So do the cam bearings just wear and cause the cam to move around?

[Shaolin Crane]

So do the cam bearings just wear and cause the cam to move around?

From what Dick has told me about the engines he's done is that the bearings were oversized from the factory, some of them had knock right off the showroom, some took longer but almost always the bearings were not the right size. You can order bearings in an array of sizes so mic it and order them.

[enkeivette]

Check your spark plugs too. If it's burning oil, at least some of them should be oil fouled.

[enkeivette]

Mobil 1 makes a 15-50 synthetic blend. $22 at the Anaheim walmart on euclid

[BRUTAL64]

Is it muffled? If not it might be an exhaust leak. If so, dump a quart of some cheap ATF in your engine and run it for a week to break up the build up (I'm thinking lifter). ATF has a high detergent content. Then put some decent synthetic oil in there (not Rotella, haha).

You know how old that fix is...it goes back to the early 50s...man you're are old.:D

[enkeivette]

You know how old that fix is...it goes back to the early 50s...man you're are old.:D

:beer:

[Vettezuki]

Is this a normal amount of side to side play in the rockers?

Rocking Rocker - YouTube

[fiveohwblow]

Is this a normal amount of side to side play in the rockers?

Rocking Rocker - YouTube

Could very well depend on where that particular valve/push rod is and whether or not that spring is compressed or not. Given two cylinders down was similar this can somewhat affirm what I am thinking.

Either way, ill leave it to those who know Chevy engines as I obviously do not.

[Vettezuki]

Guy came over, looked it up on Google and told me it was fine. Also fired it up and identified the sound in the OP as indeed, cam knock. Booo.

[Vettezuki]

So it's going to wait, but if I have to pull the damn engine to get to the root problem, I will be doing new lifters, rockers, and valves, and maybe either a little head work (though I'm not sure there is much to do) or new HG to drop compression a little for our wonderful CA summer blend. Then on to Jammer98 for headers and exhaust. Unfortunately, over the last year, nothing has panned out all that well on the money front, so it's probably going to be at least six months. Boo. At least the wife's Miata is bullet proof.

[enkeivette]

Just run petroleum jelly instead of oil. I still think if you run something like straight 50 weight it will at least minimize the problem in the meantime.

[enkeivette]

You should fab your own headers also, just buy a kit, tacky tacky, pull them out and finish up the seams. Then you will forever be the go-to header guy.

[C5Natie]

LS motors are known for having that play on the rockers. What you dont want is play up n down. These cars have noisy valvetrains as it is.

[C5Natie]

Dont go too thick on oil or youll starve the top end on startup especially. I run rotella t6 5w40. Great stuff on the track too.

[Vettezuki]

You should fab your own headers also, just buy a kit, tacky tacky, pull them out and finish up the seams. Then you will forever be the go-to header guy.

Ha! No, I'll just hire Jammer98 when the time comes. I may do the rockers/lifters myself for the experience, but that's about it.

[Vettezuki]

Dont go too thick on oil or youll starve the top end on startup especially. I run rotella t6 5w40. Great stuff on the track too.

I used to run Rotella 15/45 (a lot of older Vette dudes run it in Gen I SBCs), which worked fine really other than maybe a tiny loss in power, but it was quieter overall. Now it has either 5/20 or 5/30 AMSOIl.

Anyway, Guy clearly said the rocker play is fine, the ticking is cam knock, and that's not *that* big of a deal, i.e., no potential for catastrophic engine failure. But the German in me cannot tolerate something that is not basically working properly, so it waits other than enough little driving to keep everything lubed and gas circulating. Reminds me though, I'll put some stabilizer in the tank.

[C5Natie]

These cars are also known to eat up cam lobes so just keep your eye on things.

[Vettezuki]

These cars are also known to eat up cam lobes so just keep your eye on things.

I have heard of spring breaking and personally experienced that too. This cam knock seems to be a kind of common problem, but haven't heard of lobe-munching. What's the reason? Insufficient oiling in stock configuration for those who drive a bit harder?

[C5Natie]

I have heard of spring breaking and personally experienced that too. This cam knock seems to be a kind of common problem, but haven't heard of lobe-munching. What's the reason? Insufficient oiling in stock configuration for those who drive a bit harder?

From what ive seen and experienced the usual causes are either not enough spring pressure causing valvefloat or a failing roller on a lifter. Add the fact also that todays oils dont have much zinc, which why I use either rotella or red line break in additive. Also ive seen cams that weren't heat treated properly. LS motors are hard on cam bearings too. A lot of times oil pressure issues are associated with worn cam bearings and most guys always think its the mains or oil pump. Once in the past I was getting some ticking on my LS6 and I ran seafoam in the oil for about 150mi and then ran rotella. Didnt hear it again so you never know. Ive seen the atf trick work on higher mile vehicles too.

[C5Natie]

It happens. Happened to me too. Lifter roller damged cam lobe but my high cr LS6 was spinning to 7200.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-tech/3023201-camshaft-lobe-failure-analysis-discussion-pity-party.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-corvette-general-discussion/2664446-soft-camshaft.html

[C5Natie]

I also broke a valvespring first. Just replaced the spring, rocker and lifter. Cam looked ok but a few months later thats what killed my motor. Cam lobe must have got damaged. Ate the new lifter the lobe got destroyed and the shavings killed my main bearings. If I broke a valve spring now I'd be nervous and check the lifter. Id replace the cam if the lifter roller has even slight abnormal wear, but thats just me.

[Vettezuki]

From what ive seen and experienced the usual causes are either not enough spring pressure causing valvefloat or a failing roller on a lifter. Add the fact also that todays oils dont have much zinc, which why I use either rotella or red line break in additive. Also ive seen cams that weren't heat treated properly. LS motors are hard on cam bearings too. A lot of times oil pressure issues are associated with worn cam bearings and most guys always think its the mains or oil pump. Once in the past I was getting some ticking on my LS6 and I ran seafoam in the oil for about 150mi and then ran rotella. Didnt hear it again so you never know. Ive seen the atf trick work on higher mile vehicles too.


LS1Z28 mentioned running Sea Foam too, then changing the oil. How much did you put in?

[C5Natie]

LS1Z28 mentioned running Sea Foam too, then changing the oil. How much did you put in?

It was whatever the directions called for. Cant remember if its a whole or half a can. Ive also used iirc Gumout's Motor Flush. It wasnt on the vette but in a Mitsu Endeavor. That one you just idle it for a few minutes and it seems to clean things up pretty good. I dont use these products much but it was a higher mileage car and it did get quieter after. Sometimes you get lucky.

[enkeivette]

Ya Im with guy, worst case you destroy for cam bearings and cam, which are fucked anyways. Just enjoy it till it gets bad, then new bearings and a new cam.

[Vettezuki]

Changed the oil to Rotell 15/40 and and put in some sea foam, but only have 20 miles or so on it. Sound is still there. Interestingly it's really only at partial loading, not all the time. Pretty quiet when idling, and doesn't seem to do it when romping (that i can hear). It's worst on a curve under light/partial load, like turning a corner.

[Shaolin Crane]

Changed the oil to Rotell 15/40 and and put in some sea foam, but only have 20 miles or so on it. Sound is still there. Interestingly it's really only at partial loading, not all the time. Pretty quiet when idling, and doesn't seem to do it when romping (that i can hear). It's worst on a curve under light/partial load, like turning a corner.
Even the worse cam knock i've heard was still only under part throttle, i'm sure its happened, but I've never heard of catastrophic engine failure starting with cam knock

[Vettezuki]

Even the worse cam knock i've heard was still only under part throttle, i'm sure its happened, but I've never heard of catastrophic engine failure starting with cam knock

But would it apparently go away under WOT? My expectation would be for it to get progressively worse, but I guess it could be a more complex "resonance" type question.

[Shaolin Crane]

But would it apparently go away under WOT? My expectation would be for it to get progressively worse, but I guess it could be a more complex "resonance" type question.

Yup, light part throttle at idle, part throttle at cruise, no noise at idle or under WOT.