429 for a '72 Mach 1

[Leedom]

My dad is finally going to be dropping his 429 into his Mach 1. We will be removing the existing 351 Cleveland. Not sure what exactly we are going to do with the 351 but that is a decision for later. Right now he is wanting to throw a new cam in the 429 before we drop it into the Mach.

The engine specs are as follows:
429 ci
Bore: 4.36
Stroke: 3.59
CR: 10.5:1
Connecting Rod Length: 6.6050
Intake: Edelbrock Performer Dual Plane
Heads: stock 1970 Dove-C
Head Runner Volume: 71-75cc
Ported Heads (going to be)
Intake Valve: 2.075-2.090
Exhaust Valve: 1.646-1.661
Rocker Arm Type: Stock
Rocker Arm Ration: 1.75:1
Headers: Hooker Super Comp long tubes
RPM Range (Low): 650
RPM Range (High): 4600

Manual Trans in case that makes a difference with a rear end of 3.50
Tire height: about 30"

He is leaning towards either a hydraulic flat tappet or a solid lifter roller from Comp. Right now in talking with Comp they are recommending this kit. (http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=K34-238-4&Category_Code=) Let me know if you have any recommendations.

My dad still needs a Carb and distributor/coil so if you have any recommendations on those that would be great.

[94cobra69ss396]

That cam is a great choice especially with a 3.50 rear gear.

[Leedom]

My dad was thinking a 750CFM Carb would be good agree?

[94cobra69ss396]

Yes, anything bigger will be too big.

[Leedom]

He is thinking Edelbrock, Holly or Demon? Any recommendations?

[94cobra69ss396]

Also for ignition I recommend Mallory. If it's more then he wants to spend then go with MSD. I'm running MSD stuff in both the Chevelle and the Cobra but only because the Mallory distributor I was running in the Chevelle before costs over $400 now. When the old one went out I couldn't afford to replace. It had been in the car for about 15 years.

[94cobra69ss396]

Holley or Demon. I don't like the AFB style carbs. I've always run a Holley so I'm familiar with them. They're easy to work on and tune.

[Leedom]

We are looking in the summit catalog and their Summit brand carbs are way cheap? I read some online that Holly at least used to make them. What do you think?

[Vettezuki]

We are looking in the summit catalog and their Summit brand carbs are way cheap? I read some online that Holly at least used to make them. What do you think?

I do NOT know in this case, but it's not uncommon for off brand makes to be made by the same OEM. It's certainly plausible.

[Leedom]

Trying to decide between these

Holly 770 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-83770/overview/)
Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08750vs/overview/)

[Vettezuki]

My advice is conditional. If the Summit brand is functionally equivalent and your dad has no real concern of reselling, or of showing, but just wants to enjoy it with an affordable build-out, the Summit brand would be fine. If however, resale, and perhaps showing, are any kind of goals, stick to big name name brands; that's part of the benefit (right or wrong) that comes with brand premium in carrying value forward. Probably stating the obvious here.

[Leedom]

Yeah, my dad really does not care about brand names and the high air cleaner pretty much hides the carb anyway. Resale is not a concern because this car more than likely will be a family heirloom.

[Vettezuki]

Well, then it's pure price:function and "off brands" may be just peachy.

[94cobra69ss396]

The Summit carb was originally a Holley. I forget what model it was but it was something like a 4165 or something like that. Holley also makes a 4160 that's close in price if he preffers a Holley.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-3310sa/overview/

[Mach1Daddy]

Had an additional Comp hydraulic flat tappet kit recommended to me. It is a Comp K-34-247-4 with the following specs:

Duration Int 274/ 286
Duration @ .050 lift Int 230/ 236
Valve lift Int .562/ .563
Rpm range 1800-6000

How does this compare to the first recommendation?

With regards to the carb question, I found some interesting info. As already mentioned, the Summit carbs were originally made by Holley. Fuzzy on who makes them now, but all Holley parts are interchangeable on the Summit carb.

Found some interesting articles in past issues of Mustang Monthly. They were really favorable in their comments about the Summit carbs. They felt that Summit combined the best of Holley and the 4100 Autolite series used during the muscle car era.

Will appreciate any feedback .

[Shaolin Crane]

That's a good cam so far, whats that lobe center?

[94cobra69ss396]

In my opinion you just can't beat a Holley. Parts are cheap, they're easy to rebuild when the time comes and they work great. As for those two cams, they are both Comp Extreme Energy cams and both are on a 110 LSA. Which one to run depends on what you want to use the car for.

The XE262H (smaller cam) will make peak horsepower at around 5000 and have a 5500 rpm shift point. Peak torque should be around 3500. It will have a better idle than the larger XE274H and make about 20 lb/ft more torque. If you just want a good street car and are keeping the 3.50 gear this is the cam I'd choose.

The XE274H will make about 20 hp more than the XE262H but it will be at a higher (5500) rpm. Peak torgue should be around 4000 and the shift point would be 6000. This cam will have a more aggresive idle if that's what you're after. If this is the cam you want to run I'd switch to a 3.73 gear and also go with a Performer RPM intake instead of the Performer.

[Mach1Daddy]

A bit of good news for the old wallet. The Mallory unilite distributor I have in my 351C is also used of the 429. Won't have to buy a new ignition set up.

[94cobra69ss396]

I wish I knew you already had the Mallory distributor because I knew you could use your current one. I just thought you had the stock points distributor in the 351C. What did you decide to do for a cam?

[Mach1Daddy]

My error. I was thinking about leaving the 351C intact for possible sale. But I think I'll keep it , at least for now. This does free up some bucks. Looking more and more at the Holley carbs. I know that the 4150 is about a hundred buck more than the 4160. What's your opinion? Do you think its worth it? Also the 4150 is 770cfm vs 750cfm for the 4160. I think I'll just stick with the first recommended ca. I figure I'll be over 400hp vs about 200+ that I have now. No point in getting carried away. Thanks for the input.

[94cobra69ss396]

The only difference between the 4150 and the 4160 is that the 4150 uses a metering block with jets which can be adjusted on the secondaries where the 4160 uses a non adjustable metering plate on the secondaries. I ran a 3310 4160 on the old 396 I had in the Chevelle for years and it worked great. I think it will be perfect for for the combo you are planning. Depending on how well the heads flow and what the true compression ratio are you should be right around 400 horsepower and 500 lb/ft torque with the XE262H cam.

[Mach1Daddy]

Well looks like I may not be saving money on the ignition system after all. Since I don't know how old the current system is, I decided to go with a new distributor along with the other new stuff. My current distributor is the Mallory unilite so that's what I am going to stick with. I do however have a question. My current system utilizes a mechanical advance setup. Should I stick with this setup or go to a vacume advance setup since the car will be primarily a street vehicle? Thanks for any input.

[Vettezuki]

Well looks like I may not be saving money on the ignition system after all. Since I don't know how old the current system is, I decided to go with a new distributor along with the other new stuff. My current distributor is the Mallory unilite so that's what I am going to stick with. I do however have a question. My current system utilizes a mechanical advance setup. Should I stick with this setup or go to a vacume advance setup since the car will be primarily a street vehicle? Thanks for any input.

Before you do that, you might want to hit up big2bird. He's not far from you, about 10 miles perhaps. He knows all about ignitions and actually has a couple old Sun machines in his garage for checking them and dialing in different curves etc. Tell'm Ben referred you. You can just PM him here. He should respond.

[94cobra69ss396]

There's no reason to replace that Unilite distributor, it is great. Just add a Mallory HyFire VI A with it. I'd still have mine in the Chevelle if the advance stop hadn't broke. Mine was about 15 years old before it broke. They are also easy to adjust. You use springs to adjust the advance curve and the timing tab to adjust the amount of total advance. I'm not sure what works for a BBF but I would set initial timing at 14 degrees with a total advance between 34-36 degrees all in by 3000 rpms.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-6852m/overview/

[Mach1Daddy]

Update on the 429 conversion. I have been accumulating parts and now have the following:
1. Comp Cams K34-238-4 Extreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kit - Cam, Flat tappet lifters, Springs, seals, Locks, Etc with a 1300-5500 RPM Range
2. Edelbrock 2166 Performer Intake - Aluminum, Dual Plane Idle - 5500 RPM range
3. Summit 750 cfm 4bbl Square Bore Carb - Vac. secondaries, Electric choke
4. Hooker Super Comp Long Tube Headers - 35", 1 7/8" Primaries to a 3 1/2" collectors, Reducers from 3 1/2" to 2 1/2" exhaust and Stage 8 bolts. This was the only header I could find made for a 429/460 engine into a 71-73 Mustang. It was also recommended.
5. Mallory Hyfire 6A Controller.
6. Mallory 29216 Canister Style Coil - 51,000V
7. Holley 110GPH Mechanical Fuel Pump
8. Set of E3 Plugs
9. Water pump, Inlet housing, and Fail Safe thermostat
10. 100 Amp 1 wire alternator with 1 wire conversion kit.
11. Complete 429/460 Motor Mount Kit and hardware for 71-73 Mustang
12. Fel Pro 429/460 Gasket Set
13. All new hardware
14. Used Bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, bearing fork, and pressure plate for 429 Ford
a. Flywheel appears to need resurfacing
b. 11" Clutch & Pressure Plate are good - Look like McLeod or Zoom

I got a starter with the engine, but don't know if it will work because the engine was hooked to an automatic.

Need to get a fan, some brackets, and pulleys and other odd and end things.

Since the heads will need to be disassembled, I would like to port match the intake and exhaust openings.

Look forward to comments and input.

[94cobra69ss396]

Porting the heads takes a lot of time and with the combo you are building won't make all that much more power. I can't remember off the top of my head but I think I spent about 20 hours porting the ones for my Explorer and twice that on the AFR's in the Cobra. Also, I don't have the tools to set the valve springs up so you'll need to have those installed by a machine shop before we put the engine together.

[Shaolin Crane]

I have the valve spring tool.

[94cobra69ss396]

I've never set up valve springs. I've always had them done when I have the heads machined.

[Leedom]

I talked to my dad earlier and he is going to have a machine shop install the new valve springs as well as gasket match the heads. He thinks it is well worth the $300 they are charging for it. We will pull the heads this weekend and drop them off Monday. They said in 2 to 3 days we will have them back.

[Mach1Daddy]

Good news. When we pulled the heads, we discovered that the ports had already been gasket matched. It just cost me $25 to have the valve springs swapped.

I think I found a use for my savings. Research and what I've seen on Horse Power on Power Block led me to look at rockers. I think I'll switch the stamped steel rockers for some aluminum roller rockers. I am looking at the following I found on Summit.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-17045-16/overview

[Leedom]

Work on this starts Sunday. Hopefully the 429 gets dropped in next weekend!

[94cobra69ss396]

So we pulled the 351C today, washed the engine bay and installed the new Comp cam in the 429. We also cc'd a combustion chamber and piston and checked the deck height. With the .041 compressed gasket thickness the 429 is going to be at 10.48:1 compression. I don't know if Adam or Andy took any pictures but if they did, hopefully they'll post them up.

[Leedom]

Funny that Ron mentioned pictures. My dad and I were talking about it on the way home and realized neither of us took any pics. We will fro sure have the camera in hand for install of the 429 this weekend. Glad Ron did the compression calculation because I had no idea that we would be looking at about 10.5:1.

[enkeivette]

Nice! :popcorn:

[enkeivette]

Seems like Ron is always there to save the day with your big car projects/ disasters... thats a reeeal good friend.

[Leedom]

Seems like Ron is always there to save the day with your big car projects/ disasters... thats a reeeal good friend.

Ron is awesome!

[Leedom]

Thought I would update this thread with our progress. Sorry but this is kind of wordy.

4/13
We worked on the Mach last saturday and seemed to keep running into issues. We did get the motor dropped in but had to open up some of the holes on the motor mounts to get the driver side to fit. We realized that our rocker studs were smaller than we thought so we could not install the rockers. My dad was going to order larger studs from APR. Got the passenger side header on and room is a little tight.

429 has a new home
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KTU58UFR3Fw/UXSJoqSqB9I/AAAAAAAAAEs/cHAgaRw54xk/s912/IMAG0226.jpg

Intake
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gN7aJ4PQYxQ/UXSJkp2C-SI/AAAAAAAAAEU/0h8cz02P6ws/s912/IMAG0224.jpg

4/21
We met up again at Ron's to continue the work yesterday. We started with installing a new mini-starter to help with the tight fit of the exhaust. This sent my dad on his first trip to the auto parts store for some new cables. We then installed the new rocker studs and went to install the rockers and realized we did not have rocker guides so once again could not install the rockers. Finishing up the exhaust was next on the list. When installing the driver side header everything was going well until one of the tubed was cut short and would not completely sleeve into the tube attached to the collector. These headers are in 3 pieces for each side because of the space issue so the rear 2 pipes attach to the head and sleeve into the compete pipes from the front 2 cylinders. Moving on we hooked up Ron's old exhaust off the Chevelle. Had to of course do some fitting but this is just temporary to get my dad to an exhaust shop to get all new exhaust from the collectors back (going to Muffler Man in Placentia for exhaust). While Ron and I were doing the exhaust my dad made his second trip to the parts store for some U-clams and flexible pipe. Next we moved onto the fuel pump and this got my dad making his third trip to the part store for the correct fuel filter and fittings. After getting the fuel pump installed we realized that the new fuel filter that the parts store guys gave my dad was wrong again. Trip 4 to the auto parts store for my dad. While my dad was doing that we moved onto the new serp. belt set-up for the car and realized that the kit they sent has a crank pulley that bolts to a harmonic balancer but our stock set-up has a crank pulley that is also the harmonic balancer. Another roadblock and we ended the day there.

Starter
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3ygDUGnJgPs/UXSJl3UXbpI/AAAAAAAAAEc/mH6rWAOCoZQ/s912/IMAG0228.jpg

Exhaust
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GmiOJH5Yhhs/UXSJBPjTG2I/AAAAAAAAAAw/4g8r3ueyjAE/s912/IMAG0257.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Tt0uz4N64ZU/UXSJCLp-82I/AAAAAAAAAA4/zSH94JL6fd4/s912/IMAG0256.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wjJcNI7dZnc/UXSJYYgFkLI/AAAAAAAAADQ/oQycGHsGOEU/s912/IMAG0239.jpg

Side by side of exhaust: old was 2.25" pipe and the new is a huge 3"
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7FN-fthBqc8/UXSJeIuEMyI/AAAAAAAAADo/1V9V4_LnftA/s1024/IMAG0236.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

Looks good so far.....of course I do not agree with everything...but that's jsut me...lol


Yes..Ron is awesome!

[94cobra69ss396]

Looks good so far.....of course I do not agree with everything...but that's jsut me...lol

Elaborate.

[enkeivette]

Its Glenn! Everyone I had a Glenn sighting! Haha

[BRUTAL64]

Elaborate.


Ron, you guys are doing great!

Just the cam...I have issue with..but it is already in and will be great for the 429. But cam choose is subjective...I would have used another cam for 429...I have been away so my input is worthless.

You guys are doing a great job on the build.

I jsut put an edelbrock 750 performer carb on my 429 and it works great

[94cobra69ss396]

What cam do you like for this 429?

[BRUTAL64]

What cam do you like for this 429?
The cam you guys picked is good with 9.5 and lower compression.
The higher compression should use a little bigger cam....easier to keep ping at bay.


I would look for something in the 230 effective intake duration and 10 degrees more on the exhaust duration because of the poor exhaust port.

Lobe seperation around 108 for the lope he wanted.

You can use BBchevy roller rockers if the heads use adjustable studs.

Just my 2.5 cents...means little at this point

The cam u picked is going to work good though...he will be very happy with it.

Almost forgot I do NOT use Comp Cams......don't like them...other people swear by them ...I jsut know a different history of problems that most people aren't aware of.

[Vettezuki]

The cam you guys picked is good with 9.5 and lower compression.
The higher compression should use a little bigger cam....easier keep ping at bay.



Is this just because as the valves are open longer the peak cylinder pressure and therefore combustion temps are lower?

[BRUTAL64]

Is this just because as the valves are open longer the peak cylinder pressure and therefore combustion temps are lower?

More to do with cylinder pressure than temps.....though high pressures can cause higher temps. But we are are talking higher than 11:1.

At lower engine speeds the valves will be open a little longer and therefore bleed a little pressure....but at higher rpm longer open valves mean more air/fuel for engine.

[94cobra69ss396]

I don't think it will run all that bad with the smaller cam and we should be able to keep it from detonating by pulling a couple degrees of timing. Speaking of timing do you know how much total advance these D0VE heads like? I've heard around 34 total and figured we would start at 32 and see how much 91 would allow us to go without pinging.

[BRUTAL64]

I don't think it will run all that bad with the smaller cam and we should be able to keep it from detonating by pulling a couple degrees of timing. Speaking of timing do you know how much total advance these D0VE heads like? I've heard around 34 total and figured we would start at 32 and see how much 91 would allow us to go without pinging.

If he has the closed chamber heads...you can go 36 degrees at about 2700 rpm. Some have gone as high as 38 but 36 is good......if it pings...well you know what to do...:)

Closed chamber head 71 and older

The open chamber you can not do shit with...they ping no matter what you do...no quench area on head.

[94cobra69ss396]

I think Andy said they were 70. I don't know what the open chamber looks like versus the closed chamber but since they only had 71cc (IIRC, I think that's what we cc'd them at) combustion chambers I assume they are closed chambers.

[BRUTAL64]

I think Andy said they were 70. I don't know what the open chamber looks like versus the closed chamber but since they only had 71cc (IIRC, I think that's what we cc'd them at) combustion chambers I assume they are closed chambers.

Yes, they are closed chamber...same as on my T-bird....these heads are so good I've had a spare set for 30 years.:bigthumbsup::bigthumbsup:

[Leedom]

Good luck with the car today Ron and dad. I wish I could be there to help but as we know I got a little one to watch over. I hope you guys finish today! I can not wait to hear that monster and get some time behind the wheel myself.

[94cobra69ss396]

We're not finished but getting closer. We ran into another problem with the March pulley system. The harmonic balancer isn't right. It spaces the crank pulley out about a 1/4 inch to far.

[Vettezuki]

It would be a project car if it didn't fight you along the way. Sometimes I think back at the number of hoops I had to go through to get the Vette done . . . and I shudder.

[BRUTAL64]

We're not finished but getting closer. We ran into another problem with the March pulley system. The harmonic balancer isn't right. It spaces the crank pulley out about a 1/4 inch to far.

Used to sell that crap........a lot of it doesn't fit right...I was hoping they were fixing their problems.

[enkeivette]

Dont mean to be insulting, but you sure the balancer is down all the way on the crank?

You could put a pair of stock pulleys on loosely to be sure the March pulleys are the problem.

[94cobra69ss396]

The stock balancer that came with engine doesn't work with the March kit. It has a two groove pulley built into it and has three bolt holes for additional pullies to bolt to the front of it. The March system uses a balancer from a later model year that uses a 4 bolt pulley. Also, the balancer is all the way on, I used my balancer install tool and then torqued it down. The one thing about the new balancer is that it has a built in spacer that is just about the distance that the pulley is off by. We need one that is just flat.

I took a picture from Saturday because I had a replacement for Adam help out for a little while. Kylie helped install some intake bolts and torqued them down.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130427_142235.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

The stock balancer that came with engine doesn't work with the March kit. It has a two groove pulley built into it and has three bolt holes for additional pullies to bolt to the front of it. The March system uses a balancer from a later model year that uses a 4 bolt pulley. Also, the balancer is all the way on, I used my balancer install tool and then torqued it down. The one thing about the new balancer is that it has a built in spacer that is just about the distance that the pulley is off by. We need one that is just flat.

I took a picture from Saturday because I had a replacement for Adam help out for a little while. Kylie helped install some intake bolts and torqued them down.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130427_142235.jpg


I'm sure she is doing a better job than Adam.....:leaving:

[94cobra69ss396]

Did Andy talk to you about the spacer for the crank he found yesterday? He thought it was used for auto transmission cars but wasn't sure?

Also, do you know what balancer he needs for that March system?

[BRUTAL64]

Did Andy talk to you about the spacer for the crank he found yesterday? He thought it was used for auto transmission cars but wasn't sure?

Also, do you know what balancer he needs for that March system?

I used to end up calling March on every app cause every one was different..just call them..hopfully they can help



What is the thickness of the spacer?

[94cobra69ss396]

Andy called them before he ordered the one we used. He's going to call them again as well as Summit. We ran into another issue with the March system yesterday when test fitting the A/C brackets. The front and rear backets don't line up correctly so they clock the compressor.

The spacer is about 1/4 inch thick and must have been on the outer side of the flex plate because you can see the marks from the bolts on it. Andy said the engine had an auto behind it so he thought maybe it was for just auto cars. He forgot that it was in his trunk. Everything went together fine with the flywheel so I don't know what that spcer would have been used for.

[BRUTAL64]

Andy called them before he ordered the one we used. He's going to call them again as well as Summit. We ran into another issue with the March system yesterday when test fitting the A/C brackets. The front and rear backets don't line up correctly so they clock the compressor.

The spacer is about 1/4 inch thick and must have been on the outer side of the flex plate because you can see the marks from the bolts on it. Andy said the engine had an auto behind it so he thought maybe it was for just auto cars. He forgot that it was in his trunk. Everything went together fine with the flywheel so I don't know what that spcer would have been used for.

Shouldn't need the spacer on the flywheel...as far as I know.

Good luck on the March issue. Talk to March directly...

[94cobra69ss396]

Andy's handling all that. When he called them the first time they couldn't tell him a specific model and year that they designed the system to work with. That would have been useful information. The only thing they said was that it was for 1971 and later.

[BRUTAL64]

Andy's handling all that. When he called them the first time they couldn't tell him a specific model and year that they designed the system to work with. That would have been useful information. The only thing they said was that it was for 1971 and later.

Yep...good ole March.....:boggled:

[Leedom]

I took a picture from Saturday because I had a replacement for Adam help out for a little while. Kylie helped install some intake bolts and torqued them down.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130427_142235.jpg

She is probably more useful than I am. :jester:

[Leedom]

Andy's handling all that. When he called them the first time they couldn't tell him a specific model and year that they designed the system to work with. That would have been useful information. The only thing they said was that it was for 1971 and later.

March told him it was for '70 and later cars which should mean it work, but how knows.

Here are pics of the spacer.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/Spacer-02.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/Spacer-04.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

March told him it was for '70 and later cars which should mean it work, but how knows.

Here are pics of the spacer.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/Spacer-02.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/Spacer-04.jpg

Reinforcing bolt ring...for flex plate

[Leedom]

Here are some pics of the progress.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-044.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-042.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-041.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-038.jpg

[Leedom]

Reinforcing bolt ring...for flex plate

Is it needed?

[BRUTAL64]

Is it needed?

Only for flex plate....unless stated by flywheel manufacture---never seen it though on a flywheel

[BRUTAL64]

Here are some pics of the progress.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-044.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-042.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-041.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Mach1-Motor-Swap-038.jpg

Looks damn pretty....Fords are so cool!!!!

[94cobra69ss396]

[QUOTE=Leedom;114335]March told him it was for '70 and later cars which should mean it work, but how knows.

I looked up the kit and it mentioned that the harmonic balancer and water pump need to be for 70 or later. Do you know what year your dad ordered the water pump for? I'm assuming it's correct since part of the brackets bolt to the head while others bolt to the water pump and the spacers they use all line everything else up correctly (except for the A/C).

[Leedom]

Update on some of the problems we ran into this past weekend:
March - Talked to March and as Glenn mentioned, they were not a lot of help. The first thing they told me was the same as was mentioned before; the kit was designed of of 70 and newer engine water pumps. Then they asked if we were sure that the damper was on all the way on. They also suggested that we pull the pulley and check to see if it is stamped 18-74.
No answer on the A/C problem. They want me to send them some pictures, which I don't what it will do for them; but we'll send them.

Summit - I talked to Summit about the March problem and they didn't have any additional information in their files as to damper etc.
Discussed the the crank pulley problem but their info did not give any dimensions as to length of the damper hubs. They suggested that we pull the new damper and measure the hub length front to back and then do the same on the original damper and see how they compare. If they are the same, it might be the length on the spacer behind the damper. On some of the dampers in Summits catalog, the notes referred to a different Ford spacer. So I shot Ford a e-mail and asked them to give me the length dimension on the referenced spacer.
The last possible solution we discussed was something I had considered, pull the spacer and take it to a machine shop and have it shaved down to the proper length.

I'm researching the throttle linkage problem.

Message by Andy from my grandsons place.

[enkeivette]

Loves it, but stamped steel valve covers? You guys trying to start an oil fire? Haha

[BRUTAL64]

So no progress this weekend?

[Leedom]

Not sure how much. I did not have a chance to talk to my dad last night. He went out to Ron's to continue working on it. I am sure if the thing was fired up I would have heard from him.

[94cobra69ss396]

We did work on it more on Sunday. I finished wiring the iginition box, coil, distributor, tach, oil pressure sending unit and temp gauge. I also installed the water temp sensor and oil pressure sensor before I wired them and I also installed the oil filter. I wish we had taken some before pictures of the mess of wires that were there before with the old engines ignition and starter system. I made all new wires and ran everything through wire loom to keep it clean.

I also made all the spark plug wires. The final thing we did was measure the harmonic balancer and spacer. I pulled the spacer so Andy can check to see what length the ones for the later engines are. From what I could find online it looks like Ford used a shorter one on the later engines so that is most likely our issue.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130506_100327.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130506_100333.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130506_100357.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130505_160215.jpg

[Vettezuki]

Look'n good!

[BRUTAL64]

Hyfire----much better than that piece of crap MSD 6a.

Yes, looking good.:judge:

Oh yea, the upper rad hose clamps are very interesting......

[94cobra69ss396]

Andy ordered those through Mustang Depot I think. Those clamps are stapled onto the hose to keep them in place.

[Leedom]

I wish we had taken some before pictures of the mess of wires that were there before with the old engines ignition and starter system. I made all new wires and ran everything through wire loom to keep it clean.

I also made all the spark plug wires.

Not the best pic but you can see the wiring. I think when we brought it out to you Ron the little bit of loom that was on the wires had disintegrated and we probably just removed it. That arcing issue we had was probably a little our fault. Looking good!!

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Enige-Bay-Left.jpg

New Engine Bay
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130505_160215.jpg

Old Engine Bay
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Engine-Bay.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

Not the best pic but you can see the wiring. I think when we brought it out to you Ron the little bit of loom that was on the wires had disintegrated and we probably just removed it. That arcing issue we had was probably a little our fault. Looking good!!

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Enige-Bay-Left.jpg

New Engine Bay
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130505_160215.jpg

Old Engine Bay
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/595/72-Engine-Bay.jpg

Looks a little better......:rolling:.....actually it looks great:judge:


But ...no fan shroud???? Not good for idle temps.:(

[94cobra69ss396]

But ...no fan shroud???? Not good for idle temps.:(

We haven't installed the radiator and hoses yet. I just set the radiator and hose in there so that I could see where the hose ran so I could route the spark plug wires and fuel line where they would clear everything and look good. We'll install them next weekend and see if the fan shroud clears or if he needs a different one for the big block.

[Mach1Daddy]

Running down the correct crank spacer, some heater hose fittings, and a short belt so that we can bypass the A/C compressor.(still no resolution from March). The new throttle cable should be arriving this week. I think we should be able to light it up this coming weekend. As you can tell, Ron does great work. The car is really looking good.

[94cobra69ss396]

Thank you for being patient with my perfectionism.

[BRUTAL64]

Thank you for being patient with my perfectionism.

Anal???:sm_laughing::judge::rolling:

No, I really did not mean that.

I wish I had your attention to detail when I was your age...last century ago.:)

[94cobra69ss396]

I'm not all that young, I'm 42.

[BRUTAL64]

I'm not all that young, I'm 42.

It still would be last century...:sm_laughing:

[enkeivette]

Damn those pulleys are really holding you guys back. It's got to be a dampener issue.

Two thoughts, first, having a little girl torque down the intake is kind of genius. It won't get overtightened in any one spot, then warp and leak.

Second, Glenn, ditching the C3 fan shroud was a fantastic choice for me. That thing was more of a pain in the ass to get out than my heater core and brake pedal. Aluminum radiator with two electric fans mounted right to it, no shroud, car stays at 180 all day long.

[Leedom]

Update... not good.

I spoke with my dad last night and there was a problem. They are not totally sure what happened but water started boiling over and they shut it down and one of the cylinders failed a leak down test. The motor was running strong for a while and sounded awesome according to my dad. More than likely the motor is going to have to be pulled depending on what we see after we pull the heads. My family just does not have great future with doing motor work.

[Vettezuki]

Update... not good.

I spoke with my dad last night and there was a problem. They are not totally sure what happened but water started boiling over and they shut it down and one of the cylinders failed a leak down test. The motor was running strong for a while and sounded awesome according to my dad. More than likely the motor is going to have to be pulled depending on what we see after we pull the heads. My family just does not have great future with doing motor work.

You guys didn't install the pistons yourselves right? You just got the motor as is?

[enkeivette]

Eek, Im assuming Ron adjusted the valves so there's no chance one is stuck open?

Hopefully it's the head gasket. Otherwise you guys bought yourselves a cracked motor or head. Milkshakey oil?

[enkeivette]

Well despite what your engine company may tell you, ALL goods have a 30 day warranty of merchantability under the UCC. So don't sit on this, send them an EMAIL immediately describing the failure.

[BRUTAL64]

Sorry to hear of the problems.....

Usually with a failed head gasket two cylinders show low compression. If one cylinder shows low compression it is usually a cracked head or block ( with water temp issues ). But this is not 100%. If it is either they can be repaired.
I have had many blocks welded, sleeved and heads (cast iron) welded also. All these repairs lasted as long as an unpaired part.

If it is a failed head gasket....well I know Ron will know what to do. If I didn't build my own engines...I would feel just fine letting Ron build me one. That is the best compliment I can ever say for a person.


I know when stuff like this happens to me....I want to kill someone. :bang:

If it is a bad head I might have a source for less expensive Alum heads.....If you need a price let me know.

[Vettezuki]

Sorry to hear of the problems.....

Usually with a failed head gasket two cylinders show low compression. If one cylinder shows low compression it is usually a cracked head or block ( with water temp issues ). But this is not 100%. If it is either they can be repaired.
I have had many blocks welded, sleeved and heads (cast iron) welded also. All these repairs lasted as long as an unpaired part.

If it is a failed head gasket....well I know Ron will know what to do. If I didn't build my own engines...I would feel just fine letting Ron build me one. That is the best compliment I can ever say for a person.


I know when stuff like this happens to me....I want to kill someone. :bang:

If it is a bad head I might have a source for less expensive Alum heads.....If you need a price let me know.

And if you need welding, I think Jeff's (big2bird) buddy can handle it. He welded the blower back together and did a fine job.

[Leedom]

The motor has been sitting in my dad's garage for a few years now so there is no warranty on that. I just talked to my dad and he said Ron tested the thermostat and the thing did not open until 200 degrees. Don't know if that caused the problem or if that was just one thing in a list of things that might have gone wrong. We will have to do some more investigating next weekend.

[enkeivette]

Never reuse a thermostat, after theyve been hot and wet, once they hit the air they have a much higher tendency to oxidize and seize up.

But motors dont crack at 200 degrees, they crack at 300 degrees. It was prob a bad motor going in.

[Vettezuki]

Sadly, but all is not lost if it's just a simple crack, as BRUTAL says. PITA, yes, catastrophe, no.

[Leedom]

Never reuse a thermostat, after theyve been hot and wet, once they hit the air they have a much higher tendency to oxidize and seize up.

But motors dont crack at 200 degrees, they crack at 300 degrees. It was prob a bad motor going in.

The thermostat was new.

[BRUTAL64]

The thermostat was new.

Sadly...NEW...doesn't always mean good..:bang:

[94cobra69ss396]

If I didn't build my own engines...I would feel just fine letting Ron build me one. That is the best compliment I can ever say for a person.

That means a lot to me, thank you for the compliment.

Like Adam said, the thermostat was a new 180 unit. After Andy left I decided to pull it and test it to see if it was the cause of the over heating. I put it in a pan of water and put it on the stove. It did open but not until 200 degrees. However, it did open so that shouldn't have been the issue unless it didn't open when it was in the car.

We didn't fire the engine until about 8pm because we ran into more issues that delayed us. We started the day with reinstalling the crank spacer that Andy had 5/16 taken off of. That's how much we needed it to move in for the pulleys to line up. Next I installed the balancer, crank pulley and belts and everything lined up perfect (except for the AC which we bypassed).

Next I checked to see if the old fan and fan shroud were going to fit and of course they didn't. The old fan used a 2 inch spacer to place the fan properly inside the fan shroud. The fan shoud protrudes 5 inches from the radiator. However, there is only 3.5 inches between the radiator and accessories. Even without the spacer the fan would hit the accessories. I had a dual fan setup off a Ford Taurus that would fit in the space so I spent the rest of the afternoon making brackets and wiring the fans up to a controller that I also had. They pull a ton of air so they should have been enough to keep the engine cool for the 15 minutes that it was running. I know they pull more air than the single fan I have on the Chevelle and it doesn't get hot. So hopefully that isn't our issue either.

After that I filled up the primary fuel bowl and poured a little gas down the carb and had Andy fire it. The engine fired right away and we were running it at around 2000 rpms to break in the cam. Everything sounded good and there were a couple of little leaks that I took care of while it was running. After about 15 minutes I saw blowby at the breather and imidiately had Andy shut it down. As soon as he did the radiator started spewing water.

We let it cool down for about 15 minutes while we put all the tools away and then I pulled the spark plug looms, valve covers and spark plugs to do a compression test. All cylinder were in the 150-160 range except 7 which had 140 and 4 which had 120. I connected the air hose up to 4 and listened and the air is passing past the rings into the crankcase which makes me think the cylinder wall may be scored. Hopefully it's not but that'smy guess.

We did fire the engine up before I pulled everything back apart after letting it cool just to see if there was still blowby and there was. I think what I'm going to next is gut the thermostat and reinstall it, the spark plugs and valve covers and fire it back up. I want to make sure that the water pump is circulating water through the radiator before I start tearing it down to inspect it.

Oh, there is also no water in the oil or oil in the water and the oil is not burnt and looks good.

[BRUTAL64]

That means a lot to me, thank you for the compliment.

Like Adam said, the thermostat was a new 180 unit. After Andy left I decided to pull it and test it to see if it was the cause of the over heating. I put it in a pan of water and put it on the stove. It did open but not until 200 degrees. However, it did open so that shouldn't have been the issue unless it didn't open when it was in the car.

We didn't fire the engine until about 8pm because we ran into more issues that delayed us. We started the day with reinstalling the crank spacer that Andy had 5/16 taken off of. That's how much we needed it to move in for the pulleys to line up. Next I installed the balancer, crank pulley and belts and everything lined up perfect (except for the AC which we bypassed).

Next I checked to see if the old fan and fan shroud were going to fit and of course they didn't. The old fan used a 2 inch spacer to place the fan properly inside the fan shroud. The fan shoud protrudes 5 inches from the radiator. However, there is only 3.5 inches between the radiator and accessories. Even without the spacer the fan would hit the accessories. I had a dual fan setup off a Ford Taurus that would fit in the space so I spent the rest of the afternoon making brackets and wiring the fans up to a controller that I also had. They pull a ton of air so they should have been enough to keep the engine cool for the 15 minutes that it was running. I know they pull more air than the single fan I have on the Chevelle and it doesn't get hot. So hopefully that isn't our issue either.

After that I filled up the primary fuel bowl and poured a little gas down the carb and had Andy fire it. The engine fired right away and we were running it at around 2000 rpms to break in the cam. Everything sounded good and there were a couple of little leaks that I took care of while it was running. After about 15 minutes I saw blowby at the breather and imidiately had Andy shut it down. As soon as he did the radiator started spewing water.

We let it cool down for about 15 minutes while we put all the tools away and then I pulled the spark plug looms, valve covers and spark plugs to do a compression test. All cylinder were in the 150-160 range except 7 which had 140 and 4 which had 120. I connected the air hose up to 4 and listened and the air is passing past the rings into the crankcase which makes me think the cylinder wall may be scored. Hopefully it's not but that'smy guess.

We did fire the engine up before I pulled everything back apart after letting it cool just to see if there was still blowby and there was. I think what I'm going to next is gut the thermostat and reinstall it, the spark plugs and valve covers and fire it back up. I want to make sure that the water pump is circulating water through the radiator before I start tearing it down to inspect it.

Oh, there is also no water in the oil or oil in the water and the oil is not burnt and looks good.

With water pumps the only way it could not move water is if the shaft to impellers is broken.

From the information I have seen here...I see no reason to believe there are any cracks----low compression in the two cylinders can not be the usual head gasket problems since they are not next to each other.

Again going from what is stated here...thinking ring problems or broken ring lands...down to cracked pistons to poorly seating rings (but not leaning this way).

But this is not absolute.

[94cobra69ss396]

I did a compression test on cylinder 4 to see if it was still low after cooling down and it registered 130. So I pulled the head so I could take a look at the cylinder wall. It actually doesn't look all that bad however, I pulled the whole engine and I'm going to check the rings to make sure none are broke. I'm also going to pick up Phil's bore gauge to make sure the cylinders are not out of round.

After I pulled the heads I checked to make sure all the valves were sealing and every single one of them leaks. I don't know who did the valve job on them but there is just no way that the overheating caused all of them to leak. I'll have to pull all the valves and lap them.

Here's how the car looks now.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130514_182546.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130514_182530.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130514_182608.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

I'm thinking..if it was mine...do the WHOLE engine over ....new bearings, rings and mic everything.

You did not let the cam idle at all ----right?

The condition of the bores and pistons should be good...?

[enkeivette]

That sucks

[94cobra69ss396]

I'm thinking..if it was mine...do the WHOLE engine over ....new bearings, rings and mic everything.

You did not let the cam idle at all ----right?

The condition of the bores and pistons should be good...?

I never let it idle, as soon as it fired I brought it up to 2000 rpms to break in the cam and I set the idle screw there to hold it while I looked for leaks. It ran for about 15 minutes and I usually run it there for 20 to 25 minutes. Do you think 15 minutes is enough to break the cam in or do you think we should still break in the cam the next time we fire it up?

The pistons all look good and so do the cylinder walls but I'm waiting to hear back from my brother about his bore gauge to check the shape. I'm not going to work on it today but I'll probably take a look at the bearings tomorrow as well as the rings on cylinder 4 and give you guys an update on it.

[BRUTAL64]

I never let it idle, as soon as it fired I brought it up to 2000 rpms to break in the cam and I set the idle screw there to hold it while I looked for leaks. It ran for about 15 minutes and I usually run it there for 20 to 25 minutes. Do you think 15 minutes is enough to break the cam in or do you think we should still break in the cam the next time we fire it up?

The pistons all look good and so do the cylinder walls but I'm waiting to hear back from my brother about his bore gauge to check the shape. I'm not going to work on it today but I'll probably take a look at the bearings tomorrow as well as the rings on cylinder 4 and give you guys an update on it.

An investment of around $150 will get him new GOOD rings and VERY GOOD bearings. Just a thought.


Yes....do treat the cam as needing to be broke in....You need lots of oil on the cam at start up...just to be safe...15 minute break in is usually OK..but with the way things have been going ....better to be safe than sorry.

I know you know this..oil with ZINC.



At least when you guys have the engine back together...you will know it is good.:judge:

[94cobra69ss396]

We added a bottle of Comp ZDDP oil additive.

[Shaolin Crane]

Good bearings cost a hell of a lot more than $150. The bearings in the race motor were about $200 per set. Rings weren't cheap either.

[94cobra69ss396]

I'm going to take a look at them and see how they look.

[BRUTAL64]

Good bearings cost a hell of a lot more than $150. The bearings in the race motor were about $200 per set. Rings weren't cheap either.

Clevite 77 and Single Molly rings come to about 150....depends on the place you get them from ...yes you can spend more but not always needed.:judge:

[BRUTAL64]

I'm going to take a look at them and see how they look.

You probably know this already..but just for shits and giggles...check to make sure the bearings are steel backed and not alum back cheap asses.:p

[Shaolin Crane]

Clevite 77 and Single Molly rings come to about 150....depends on the place you get them from ...yes you can spend more but not always needed.:judge:

Those are standard bearings. I wouldn't even consider anything less.

[BRUTAL64]

Those are standard bearings. I wouldn't even consider anything less.

Clevite 77 are standard bearings...????:smack:

[94cobra69ss396]

So I pulled the pan and found bearing material in it. I then pulled all the pistons and the rod bearings (Clevite 77) looked good on all except one that had the bearing material go through it. I then removed the mains and crank and found the back side of the thrust bearing worn and burnt.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130516_131546.jpg

This is the front side and what the back side should look like.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130516_131536.jpg

I know what caused this but didn't know it was an issue. When we were lining up the trans and engine I had a hard time getting them to go together. I finally was able to push them together enough that both dowel pins were in. Adam was helping and said that they had the same issue with the 351 and had to use the bolts to pull it together so we did the same. Once we got the bolts in I was able to shake the engine and trans together some more so I didn't think anything of it. However, after seeing the crank it was obviously a clearance issue. So I measured everything and found that the pilot bearing is about 1/8 inch too far out. I did some research and found that this is an issue when using a 400 bell housing with a 429. I don't know what the bell housing came off of but Andy said something about it being from a Bronco. In my research I found that the Bronco came with a 400 and I assume that's what this is from. I also found that there are two different pilot bearings and again I'm assuming but the other one which is smaller goes further into the crank must be what we need.

I'm waiting to hear back from Andy to see what he wants to do but I think the crank is wasted but he'll need to take it to a machine shop to have it checked out. This really sucks!

Here's the crank.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130516_131618.jpg

I guess the only good thing I have to say is that at least the block is standard bore and still has the factory pistons. Also, the crank (if it's salvageable) has never been turned.

[Shaolin Crane]

Clevite 77 are standard bearings...????:smack:

Yes

[94cobra69ss396]

I spoke to Andy and I'm going to take the crank to Rancho Engine and Machine tomorrow to see if it's salvageable and then we'll go from there.

[Leedom]

Damn, that does suck. Thank you sooo much for doing all this work Ron. All our (mt family's) projects seem to have issues. Hopefully the crank is salvageable.

[BRUTAL64]

Damn, that does suck. Thank you sooo much for doing all this work Ron. All our (mt family's) projects seem to have issues. Hopefully the crank is salvageable.

As long as the thrust on the crank is ok....the crank should be ok to be turned. Ford makes very strong cranks for the 385 series.

[BRUTAL64]

Yes

Wrong....:p

[94cobra69ss396]

I had it checked and he said it looks like it's good. He said to check the thrust clearance and if it's good that we can runn it like it is. I had Andy order some Clevite bearings and will check the crank when he get's them.

[BRUTAL64]

I had it checked and he said it looks like it's good. He said to check the thrust clearance and if it's good that we can runn it like it is. I had Andy order some Clevite bearings and will check the crank when he get's them.

What do the rings look like? Are they single molly? If it were me, I'd go with new rings also.......just to be sure of a good seal and long life....it is worth the extra $75.00.

[Shaolin Crane]

Wrong....:p

No.

[BRUTAL64]

No.

Yes...:inout:

[94cobra69ss396]

What do the rings look like? Are they single molly? If it were me, I'd go with new rings also.......just to be sure of a good seal and long life....it is worth the extra $75.00.

I agree but I haven't had him order anything yet. We going to make sure the crank is good and if it's not then he may look at building it as a 460 instead. Once we know I'll have him get whatever is needed.

[BRUTAL64]

I agree but I haven't had him order anything yet. We going to make sure the crank is good and if it's not then he may look at building it as a 460 instead. Once we know I'll have him get whatever is needed.

Ok...just to have it out there......you know you will have to change pistons and RE-balance if you go 460?
Since you have to do that why not get a stroker kit from Scat or Eagle to 502 ci?:pot_stir:

[Mach1Daddy]

I ordered the main bearings and pilot bushing. We'll see what happens when we put the crank with the new bearings in the engine. Got my fingers crossed that the guy at the machine shop was right and the crank was not killed. If that is the case then maybe the overheating was a blessing in disguise because we shut off the engine and maybe saved some more damage.

With regard to the bell housing. As Ron pointed out; while the 400(used in Broncos)and 429/460 engines have the same bolt pattern, it's possible that the housings themselves may have different dimensions(depth). I am going to call Perogie - Mustang experts and the people I bought my 4-speed conversion kit from - to see if they can give me the info on the housings.

While this is really turning into a nightmare, I'm too far into this thing to quit now.

Glen; if I wound up going the route you mentioned, what all would I have to scrap and repurchase? Seems like that could turn into a financial nightmare

Thanks to everyone for their comments..

[enkeivette]

A whole new ring set? Wasn't this a new motor?

[BRUTAL64]

I ordered the main bearings and pilot bushing. We'll see what happens when we put the crank with the new bearings in the engine. Got my fingers crossed that the guy at the machine shop was right and the crank was not killed. If that is the case then maybe the overheating was a blessing in disguise because we shut off the engine and maybe saved some more damage.

With regard to the bell housing. As Ron pointed out; while the 400(used in Broncos)and 429/460 engines have the same bolt pattern, it's possible that the housings themselves may have different dimensions(depth). I am going to call Perogie - Mustang experts and the people I bought my 4-speed conversion kit from - to see if they can give me the info on the housings.

While this is really turning into a nightmare, I'm too far into this thing to quit now.

Glen; if I wound up going the route you mentioned, what all would I have to scrap and repurchase? Seems like that could turn into a financial nightmare

Thanks to everyone for their comments..

You would lose your crank...and this is going to hurt....with the thrust damage on the crank that appeared in the photo..I feel you already did.

The other parts are the pistons.

That is it ...depending on how everything is balanced external vs internal. But you can get the stroker kits as balanced assembly.

Think of it this way.... you would be going from 429 to 502...that is a big jump.


I'm a little older than you...I'm always am thinking of what I always wish I would have done...and in the Sixties it is CUBIC inches that ruled. Here is your chance to rule the street in a FORD.

You have the second best engine builder :p around here. If he is agreeable use him to build this stomper engine.

You can use everything else you have with the 502.

Remember it is just money. Use your money to enjoy what you have to the fullest.

I re-read this.....man I sure went off on a tangent. But I'm going to leave what I wrote. :judge:

BTW
If you decide to change cams...talk to me about me buying the cam you have...just a thought.
The cam you have will work just fine with the 502....but should be a bit bigger if you want to change.

[BRUTAL64]

A whole new ring set? Wasn't this a new motor?

Yea..a whole new set..cause this engine was not put together very well.

New rings ...equal piece of mind.:judge:


Worrying about something--- if it is going to hold up or not causes BRAIN DAMAGE--I've had brain damage..it is not not fun.:bang:

[BRUTAL64]

[QUOTE=

While this is really turning into a nightmare, I'm too far into this thing to quit now.

Glen; if I wound up going the route you mentioned, what all would I have to scrap and repurchase? Seems like that could turn into a financial nightmare

..[/QUOTE]

There is one thing I could do for you ...I have a computer program... Engine Dyno... works pretty good. I could run the differences between a 429 vs 502 everything else being equal..I can do that late Saturday night or Sunday day for you.

[94cobra69ss396]

My opinion is that if the crank is gone that you just pick up a cast 429 crank from Summit. They're a little over $350. If you decide to go with a stroker kit you will be into a minimum of $2000-$3000. Yes, it will make more power than the 429 but you haven't even driven it with the 429. Right now you're used to the misfiring 351C power.

[enkeivette]

I think the rings will be fine, if there's no scoring I'd run them. Youre already getting kicked in the balls having to get your crank welded up and machined back down, why kick yourself any harder?

New crank? new bearings? new cam? new rings... fuck. Take a page out of the book of Chiltons. NOTHING gets replaced unless it is out of spec. You're building a motor, not a china doll collection.

[BRUTAL64]

My opinion is that if the crank is gone that you just pick up a cast 429 crank from Summit. They're a little over $350. If you decide to go with a stroker kit you will be into a minimum of $2000-$3000. Yes, it will make more power than the 429 but you haven't even driven it with the 429. Right now you're used to the misfiring 351C power.

Yea, stroker kits are not free. A STOCK 429 in my T-bird is 360 hp and 480 ft lbs of torque. Yes, it much more than the 351 Cleveland.

Darlene says I'm 61 going on 12. So I think like a kid with a short life span.:p

It's....just 502 cubic inches of BIG BLOCK FORD...I can dream:pot_stir:



As far as the stock crank goes...I'm of this thought...if it was an auto trans vehicle than the thrust face on the crank is not as critical.

BUT...with a clutch.....you pushing a lot pressure against the clutch fingers that pushes the clutch fastened to the flywheel (bolted to the crank) that pushes against the thrust face of the crank. If that thrust face is NOT PERFECTLY smooth it will wear out the bearing adjacent to crank thrust face. This is just fact.

So looking at the thrust face on his crank....:rolleyes:


With a stroker kit you could assemble your self....460 up to 502....all you would need extra is a crank-----pistons----and a re-balance. It just has to be decided cost vs cubic inches....:pot_stir:


Yea...I know 61 going on 12.:judge:

[enkeivette]

Yea, stroker kits are not free. A STOCK 429 in my T-bird is 360 hp and 480 ft lbs of torque. Yes, it much more than the 351 Cleveland.

Darlene says I'm 61 going on 12. So I think like a kid with a short life span.:p

It's....just 502 cubic inches of BIG BLOCK FORD...I can dream:pot_stir:



As far as the stock crank goes...I'm of this thought...if it was an auto trans vehicle than the thrust face on the crank is not as critical.

BUT...with a clutch.....you pushing a lot pressure against the clutch fingers that pushes the clutch fastened to the flywheel (bolted to the crank) that pushes against the thrust face of the crank. If that thrust face is NOT PERFECTLY smooth it will wear out the bearing adjacent to crank thrust face. This is just fact.

So looking at the thrust face on his crank....:rolleyes:


With a stroker kit you could assemble your self....460 up to 502....all you would need extra is a crank-----pistons----and a re-balance. It just has to be decided cost vs cubic inches....:pot_stir:


Yea...I know 61 going on 12.:judge:

Despite my cheapness however, I would factor the cost of refurbishing the 429 crank with the cost of a comparable 460 crank. Those have got to be pretty common.

But anyways, I had to draw the line somewhere. When I was building mine I had to decide between a 383 and a 396, for $300 more. Now, yeah I want more more more, and I think it would have been cool to have built the 396.

But at the time, I just had to draw the line somewhere. Another 30hp for $300, not a bad deal. But that's the redneck in me. Did I really need that extra displacement? Haha, no. In fact! I probably should have saved even more money and gone with a 350.

[BRUTAL64]

Despite my cheapness however, I would factor the cost of refurbishing the 429 crank with the cost of a comparable 460 crank. Those have got to be pretty common.

But anyways, I had to draw the line somewhere. When I was building mine I had to decide between a 383 and a 396, for $300 more. Now, yeah I want more more more, and I think it would have been cool to have built the 396.

But at the time, I just had to draw the line somewhere. Another 30hp for $300, not a bad deal. But that's the redneck in me. Did I really need that extra displacement? Haha, no. In fact! I probably should have saved even more money and gone with a 350.

There it is....you will always want more...so why not build the more now....and save the wants and wish I dids for something else.:judge:

[BRUTAL64]

I think the rings will be fine, if there's no scoring I'd run them. Youre already getting kicked in the balls having to get your crank welded up and machined back down, why kick yourself any harder?

New crank? new bearings? new cam? new rings... fuck. Take a page out of the book of Chiltons. NOTHING gets replaced unless it is out of spec. You're building a motor, not a china doll collection.

I see you took my rebuttal for these less than true/helpful statements out...but left this........in.:judge:


I thought we were through with 1984....:rolling:

[Mach1Daddy]

Glen, I can certainly identify with a lot of what you are saying. I am probably doing today what I would like to have done when I was 19, 50 years ago and couldn't - that makes me 8 years older than you.

I think that I will stick with the 429 and forget all of the other stuff. I'm going from the 351C - approx. 240hp & 360ft/lbs of torque to probably 400+hp and 500+ft/lbs of torque. That's probably enough for an old guy to handle. No point in getting too greedy.

[BRUTAL64]

Glen, I can certainly identify with a lot of what you are saying. I am probably doing today what I would like to have done when I was 19, 50 years ago and couldn't - that makes me 8 years older than you.

I think that I will stick with the 429 and forget all of the other stuff. I'm going from the 351C - approx. 240hp & 360ft/lbs of torque to probably 400+hp and 500+ft/lbs of torque. That's probably enough for an old guy to handle. No point in getting too greedy.

You are older than me.....I did not know that. :)

Greedy can be cool sometimes...doing what you think is right ......IS always cool:judge:

[BRUTAL64]

So...how is it going with the 429.

[Mach1Daddy]

Nothing new yet. Will not know anything till be get the main bearing.

[enkeivette]

I see you took my rebuttal for these less than true/helpful statements out...but left this........in.:judge:


I thought we were through with 1984....:rolling:

Cry? I left your opinion about the 429 here, and I left my opinion about the 429 here. Every rebuttal that came after I moved.

Here it is, for all who are curious.

Rebuilding an Engine that doesnt need a rebuild.
http://motorgen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48777


Didnt see that you need new pistons for the 460 crank. That sucks, why is that? Piston height in relation to crank stroke Im assuming? I wonder if anyone has thought of a way around that with a slightly shorter rod.

[94cobra69ss396]

The 429 and 460 share a 4.360 bore and a 6.605 rod but the 460 has a 3.85 stroke whare the 429 uses a 3.59 stroke. You are correct that the piston pin height is what's different between them.

Andy, did you have the bearings shipped directly to me? If so, I'll check the end play and then let you know. that way you don't have to drive out here for no reason.

[BRUTAL64]

The 429 and 460 share a 4.360 bore and a 6.605 rod but the 460 has a 3.85 stroke whare the 429 uses a 3.59 stroke. You are correct that the piston pin height is what's different between them.

Andy, did you have the bearings shipped directly to me? If so, I'll check the end play and then let you know. that way you don't have to drive out here for no reason.

Yes that is all correct...but you already knew that and I already knew you knew that:rolling::judge:

[94cobra69ss396]

I was just answering Adam's question about what the difference was.

So in your opinion should we skip checking this crank and just pick up a new one or have this one fixed? Rancho Engine and Machine doesn't weld cranks but has a company they use and he said it will cost around $200 to fix this crank. I tried to find a cast 3.59 stroke crank but couldn't online.

[BRUTAL64]

I was just answering Adam's question about what the difference was.

So in your opinion should we skip checking this crank and just pick up a new one or have this one fixed? Rancho Engine and Machine doesn't weld cranks but has a company they use and he said it will cost around $200 to fix this crank. I tried to find a cast 3.59 stroke crank but couldn't online.

the thrust face has to be completely smooth. Welding a CAST crank is iffy at best. Heat is not good for the crank...can lose a lot of strength. I wouldn't do it myself....but could work out good....still.

Scat has only 460 cranks and up.
Eagle has 3.85 stroke and up.

There is info that the 429 truck engines had STEEL forged cranks....never seen one though.

[94cobra69ss396]

So we are picking up a used crank (thanks Guy!) that's getting machined this week along with new bearings and rings.

[BRUTAL64]

So we are picking up a used crank (thanks Guy!) that's getting machined this week along with new bearings and rings.

Good news!:judge:

[Shaolin Crane]

He needs the casting number off the block to assure he gets you the right one.

[94cobra69ss396]

I'll call you in a few minutes with it.

[Shaolin Crane]

Text it to me cause i'll forget

[BRUTAL64]

How's things going?:huh:

[94cobra69ss396]

We're at a stand still right now until the crank is done and I have time to pick it up.

[BRUTAL64]

We're at a stand still right now until the crank is done and I have time to pick it up.

Ok, standing:D by......

[94cobra69ss396]

I went to lap the valves today and saw that the wrong valve seals were used. They're 0.070 too big. So I called Andy and let him know and I'll now be dropping the heads off at Rancho Engine and Machine to have a valve job done and new seals installed.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130526_130218.jpg

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130526_130312.jpg

[enkeivette]

Who assembled this motor??

[94cobra69ss396]

I don't know.

[BRUTAL64]

Those look like standard type umbrella seals...actually pretty effective.

[94cobra69ss396]

I've never seen them loose before. They were all at the top of the valve spring up against the retainer. I had Adam check the old ones and they appear to be Viton type seals and are .100 smaller in diameter than these are.

[BRUTAL64]

I've never seen them loose before. They were all at the top of the valve spring up against the retainer. I had Adam check the old ones and they appear to be Viton type seals and are .100 smaller in diameter than these are.

I was going by picture...if they are loose on the valve stem...they they will not do the job. But, if fitting correctly, they do a very good job controlling oil down the valve guide.

[94cobra69ss396]

They're tight on the valve stem but not on the valve guide. They're sticking to the valve up at the retainer so they move up and down with the valve.

[BRUTAL64]

They're tight on the valve stem but not on the valve guide. They're sticking to the valve up at the retainer so they move up and down with the valve.

Ok...they are suppose to move up and down with the valve....yep really.:p

[94cobra69ss396]

How does that keep the oil from going down the valve guide? If that's the case then I can just finish lapping the valves then.

[BRUTAL64]

How does that keep the oil from going down the valve guide? If that's the case then I can just finish lapping the valves then.

It's called an umbrella for that reason....It covers the stem from excessive oil....but the guide/valve clearance is also a factor here.

Ford has been using them forever...I used to use the 289 umbrella seals on SBC heads all the time. Worked the best on exhaust stems/guides. Used the Seal Power over valve stem seals starting in the eighties.

The first engine I ever worked on was in 1962 --- a FORD 312 ...first SBC in 1968...damn I'm old:rolleyes:

[94cobra69ss396]

I finished lapping the valves today so the heads are ready to be bolted back on when I finish building the engine. We should be able to pick up the crank, bearings and rings either tomorrow or Tuesday so I'll start putting the short block together at night during the week so we can drop it in the car this coming weekend.

Pictures from today.

Prior to lapping.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_160503.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_160542.jpg

With lapping compound.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_160854.jpg

For Adam, this is the tool I use to lap valves.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_160920.jpg

You just put light pressure on it and spin it in your hands.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_160946.jpg

There shouldn't be any shinny sections after lapping it.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_161100.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130602_161214.jpg

[BRUTAL64]

nice:thumbs_up:

[94cobra69ss396]

I checked with Dick today and the rings won't be in for a few days. He told me to check back with him on Wednesday.

[BRUTAL64]

I checked with Dick today and the rings won't be in for a few days. He told me to check back with him on Wednesday.

Have you thought about taking an 1/8 dremel tool and knocking down some of the sharp edges in the chamber?

[Vettezuki]

:popcorn:

[94cobra69ss396]

No doubt they could benefit from some cleaning up but I just don't have the time. I have so many other projects of my own to complete.

[BRUTAL64]

No doubt they could benefit from some cleaning up but I just don't have the time. I have so many other projects of my own to complete.

Just trying to find more things for your to do...don't want you getting bored:pot_stir:

[94cobra69ss396]

Thanks.

[BRUTAL64]

Thanks.

Anytime...that is what friends are for.:inout:

[enkeivette]

Cool, thanks Ron.

Glug, glug, glug?

[94cobra69ss396]

Andy and I picked up the crank, bearings and rings from Pacific Engine this afternoon. I'll try to hone the block tonight and start fitting the rings.

[94cobra69ss396]

I had time last to hone the block and then test fit a top ring and 2nd ring. These Hasting rings are pregapped and the gap on the top ring was .032 as was the 2nd ring. The tapper on the cylinder is .001. I called Dick at Pacific Engine because this was way more than I thought it should be. Dick said not to worry about it that that is the way Hasting makes these for the big bore. He said he questioned it 15 years ago the first time he saw it and they have worked great like that. So I'll check them all on the cylinder they are going into and make sure they are all in the same range and thens tart assembling the short block.

By the way for Adam, the bore on the block is 4.362 and the piston as measured .500 from the bottom of the skirt is 4.358. I also measured it at the pin and it was 4.353 so your .011 as measured at the pin is about right.

Here's the deglazed cylinders. I didn't take much off because I didn't want the piston to wall clearance to be too much.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130613_151705.jpg

How does the pattern look? This is only the second block I've ever honed (I always have the machine shop do it) so be easy on me.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130613_151651.jpg

[Shaolin Crane]

Looks fine to me, i've certainly done worse on vehicles i've flipped :huh:

[BRUTAL64]

Actually that is pretty good...like I said before the second best engine builder I know:bigthumbsup:

[94cobra69ss396]

Yesterday we worked on assembling the engine. We started at 9am and I finshed up at 7pm. We started with checking the clearance on all the rings which all came in between .029 and .032 except for cylinder 5 which had .036 on the top ring, .034 on the second ring and .035 on the oil rings. All the main bearings had .0020 clearance and the rod bearings were .0016. Thrust clearance was .006.

Here are some pictures my wife took for us yesterday.

Main bearing.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130615_104827.jpg

Before dropping crank in.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130615_104848.jpg

Of course she takes a picture of the only piston we had trouble getting in.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130615_150241.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130615_150246.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130615_150300.jpg

How it looks now.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130615_192733.jpg

[Leedom]

Looking good!! I would love to come out next weekend and help finish her up but we have a wedding to attend.

[enkeivette]

Looking good!! I would love to come out next weekend and help finish her up but we have a wedding to attend.

2 day wedding? :p Haha, just breakin your balls.

Id love to come out and help, but Im just too damn lazy... haha. Keep the pics coming though!

[94cobra69ss396]

It's almost ready to drop in the car tomorrow.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130622_124800.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130622_142243.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130622_181926.jpg

[enkeivette]

Knock on wood!! Looks good man

[94cobra69ss396]

We worked on it all day today but didn't finish. I modified the new pilot bearing so that it wasn't pushing the crank forward but didn't take quite enough off. We couldn't get the bellhousing to flush up against the block but we didn't know if it was just being stuborn or if the pilot was binding. So I put a dial indicator on the crank snout and tightened up the bellhousing bolts and had Adam watch. Turns out I was off by .004. So we pulled the trans and made a spacer out of the auto trans shield that Andy brought. It was .070 thick and after we put it back together the dial indicator didn't move. I believe Adam took some pictures today so maybe he'll post them up later. Andy is coming back out tomorrow so we can hopefully finish it up.

[BRUTAL64]

Great job guys......:drink:

[Vettezuki]

Man you guys are earning this one!

[94cobra69ss396]

Well, she's done! We finished eveything up today and Andy drove it home tonight.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130624_185839.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130624_185846.jpg
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/20130624_201458.jpg

I got some video too but it's was taken with my phone and it's still uploading. I'll post it up later when it's finished.

[Vettezuki]

Major congrats you guys! Must be a sense of accomplishment and a probably little relief. :thumbs_up:

[94cobra69ss396]

Glad to have it done. Now on to the next one. Hopefully the seals will be in tomorrow so I can get the Cobra done.

[94cobra69ss396]

Here's the video.

Andy's 429 '73 Mach I - YouTube

[Leedom]

Very nice. Can not wait to see and hear this beast in person. Thank you soo much Ron for all your help. If there is anything you ever need help with give me a call.

[enkeivette]

YEEEAAAHHHH!!!! Shes angry

[Vettezuki]

Link fixed. It's something we need to update, so don't sweat it.

[BRUTAL64]

I did a 460 swap in a 73 fastback in 88....not near as nice as the one you just did...very good job:drink::drink:

[94cobra69ss396]

Thanks Glenn! So Andy, has Adam been by to take it for a drive yet?

[Mach1Daddy]

Adam was up yesterday after work and before I got home and took it out for a spin. Complain, complain , complain. He thought the throttle was a problem and I informed him that I had to make a bracket to attach the cable. He thought the clutch needed adjusting because in engaged all at once and the pedal popped back, which again I told him needed adjusting. Then he said he couldn't hear the tires squeal because of the exhaust noise and had trouble shifting gears.

I finally told him that he just didn't know how to drive - at least my car. However, he had a big smile on his face when he talked about the power and how the tires really broke loose when you put the pedal to the metal - even though he couldn't hear them squeal.

We do have a problem. It appears that either something is draining the battery o the one wire alternator is not charging the battery. I will download the instructions and see what I can figure our.

Again Ron, thanks for all your hard work in putting everything together. I just love it when I step on the gas. I thought the Cleveland was fairly nice, but the 429 is fantastic.I need to be careful though, or I may be best friends with the local tire store manager.

[BRUTAL64]

Adam was up yesterday after work and before I got home and took it out for a spin. Complain, complain , complain. He thought the throttle was a problem and I informed him that I had to make a bracket to attach the cable. He thought the clutch needed adjusting because in engaged all at once and the pedal popped back, which again I told him needed adjusting. Then he said he couldn't hear the tires squeal because of the exhaust noise and had trouble shifting gears.

I finally told him that he just didn't know how to drive - at least my car. However, he had a big smile on his face when he talked about the power and how the tires really broke loose when you put the pedal to the metal - even though he couldn't hear them squeal.

We do have a problem. It appears that either something is draining the battery o the one wire alternator is not charging the battery. I will download the instructions and see what I can figure our.

Again Ron, thanks for all your hard work in putting everything together. I just love it when I step on the gas. I thought the Cleveland was fairly nice, but the 429 is fantastic.I need to be careful though, or I may be best friends with the local tire store manager.

Two things...most one wire alts need to be reved up over 2500 RPM { lust one time
]to engage alt charging after that it should charge as usual.....also...you can rev the engine up to 2000 rpm and pull off the neg batt cable...if the engine shuts off the alt is bad.

[94cobra69ss396]

I checked the alternator after we fired it the first time and it was putting out 14.5 volts. I didn't check it this time though. Andy, do you have a digital multi meter to check the voltage and to check the amps? If so, make sure that after you start the car that you have 14.5 volts. Then let it run for a few minutes and it should drop down to around 13.5. If it's only at 12-12.5 then the alternator isn't charging. You can try to rev the engine up and see if it starts charging then like Glenn suggested. If the alternator is good and putting out the proper voltage then test to see how many amps are being drawn without the car on. Just diconnect the negative battery cable, set the DMM to amps and then connect one lead to the negative cable and the other to the negative terminal then post up what it shows.

[enkeivette]

Prob not relevant since it's an older car, but I had an issue with an F-Body once where a missing fuse (to the voltage regulator???) was causing a slow drain/ no charge issue. Replaced the fuse and it stopped... still confuses me today.

[Leedom]

Adam was up yesterday after work and before I got home and took it out for a spin. Complain, complain , complain. He thought the throttle was a problem and I informed him that I had to make a bracket to attach the cable. He thought the clutch needed adjusting because in engaged all at once and the pedal popped back, which again I told him needed adjusting. Then he said he couldn't hear the tires squeal because of the exhaust noise and had trouble shifting gears.

I finally told him that he just didn't know how to drive - at least my car. However, he had a big smile on his face when he talked about the power and how the tires really broke loose when you put the pedal to the metal - even though he couldn't hear them squeal.

We do have a problem. It appears that either something is draining the battery o the one wire alternator is not charging the battery. I will download the instructions and see what I can figure our.

Again Ron, thanks for all your hard work in putting everything together. I just love it when I step on the gas. I thought the Cleveland was fairly nice, but the 429 is fantastic.I need to be careful though, or I may be best friends with the local tire store manager.

The power of this car is pretty awesome. The car is more brutal then refiled. Yeah the clutch needs to be adjusted and the gas pedal too, but the car is fun. Tires do not stand a chance!

[Shaolin Crane]

Prob not relevant since it's an older car, but I had an issue with an F-Body once where a missing fuse (to the voltage regulator???) was causing a slow drain/ no charge issue. Replaced the fuse and it stopped... still confuses me today.

Had the same issue with my catfish. Amongst other alt issues

[Vettezuki]

The power of this car is pretty awesome. The car is more brutal then refiled. Yeah the clutch needs to be adjusted and the gas pedal too, but the car is fun. Tires do not stand a chance!

Cars that aren't too refined are always a hoot to drive. Get some sticky rubber on there and enjoy the neck snapping. :drink:

[Mach1Daddy]

Turns out there is no problem with the alternator. When Adam said he couldn't start the Mach we assumed the battery was dead. That was not the case. I got in it over the weekend, hit the key and it clicked. I hit the key again and it started right up. Must be a connection problem some place, although it's started ok since. Will have to check it out.

[Vettezuki]

Sure you got a full charge? Also could just be a dodgy ignition switch or a combo. My vette does this frequently when the battery is a little low, but never when fully charged (right off the charger at 100%).

[94cobra69ss396]

Is it just clicking the starter like it did with the bad battery or is it doing something different?

[Mach1Daddy]

It did not have the continuous click like with the bad battery. It clicked once, I released the key, hit it again and it started right up. Have not had the problem again - so far.

[94cobra69ss396]

It could be because of the dual solenoids or that the old one is going bad. Remember that the new starter has a solenoid on it and that the instructions showed us to wire from the original to the new. If it happens again I check the old solenoid and the old wiring going to that solenoid. The wiring going from the old one to the new one shouldn't be an issue since I mounted it in the heat shield and routed it to the oil pan away from the exhaust but you can double check it as well.

[94cobra69ss396]

How's the Mach running?