Best Inexpensive, Safe, Reliable, Smallish 4x4

[Vettezuki]

There's a moderate chance I'll be buying a family compound with a half mile of moderately rough road (dirt, broken pavement) that when it rains may get a little precarious. Presently my wife drives the Hello Kitty Miata. It would be fine when the road is dry and she drives slow (dificult!), but likely impassible or miserable during the rainy season.

Priorities are:
Safety
Reliability
Size (small)
Cost

If a Suzuki Samurai wasn't a death trap it might be great. I'm thinking used RAV4? Whatta ya'lls think?

[Vettezuki]

Doesn't actually have to be 4x4 really. I just meant to emphasize there is an offload component.

[Ryridesmotox]

I would get a blazer (S-10 style mini one not the K-5). Get the 4.3L V6 and the 4 speed auto. Its reliable and you can pick em up pretty cheap. Does this decision to move to a family compound have anything to do with the election last night?

[blackax]

First gen troopers can be had really cheap, They are easy to work on (just like most trucks) but most of mine have no problems.

2ng Gen troopers are a little upper class on the inside. They are a little more money but are a better bang for the buck.

[Shaolin Crane]

Jeep with V8
Explorer with V8
Turbo Diesel Van

[Vettezuki]

Let me rephrase smallish -> small.

[Shaolin Crane]

Explorer is smallish

[Chuck]

The blazer idea is a good one that 4.3 V6 motor is bullet proof. I had that motor in a Sonoma and that thing ran like a top to this day I kinda wish I still had it. But it didn't fair well in the sand due to it not having powered front wheels.

[Vettezuki]

. . . Its reliable and you can pick em up pretty cheap. Does this decision to move to a family compound have anything to do with the election last night?

Tangentially I suppose, but it wouldn't have mattered who won. . .

[Vettezuki]

The blazer idea is a good one that 4.3 V6 motor is bullet proof. I had that motor in a Sonoma and that thing ran like a top to this day I kinda wish I still had it. But it didn't fair well in the sand due to it not having powered front wheels.

Are there particular years that are better than others?

[Vettezuki]

Actually a "rally car" like an Imprezza might be the best choice. Small functional car that'll do just peachy on broken, dirt, gravel roads.. . . mmm.

[Damian]

Are there particular years that are better than others?

95 and newer. A Bravada would be good too since its AWD, same years.

[Shaolin Crane]

Wouldn't a subie be kinda expensive?
Perfect option
Diesel, Mid sized, has a bed, dead fucking reliable
http://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/3380623700.html

[Vettezuki]

It's for my 5' tall, 100 pound Japanese wife who presently drives the Hello Kitty themed Miata. She also enjoys speeding tickets (this might help that at least!) and hitting things. . .

Though the idea of her driving a diesel truck is amusing. Maybe if I paint it pink and put some sunflower hub caps on.

Also, if this project pans out, might get into making some biodiesel for shits and giggles since I have easy access to lots of fry oil for free, and that would drop incremental fuel costs by about 75%. (And my mom has a Cummins diesel truck and at some point would probably get a diesel tractor.)

[Shaolin Crane]

It's for my 5' tall, 100 pound Japanese wife who presently drives the Hello Kitty themed Miata. She also enjoys speeding tickets (this might help that at least!) and hitting things. . .

Though the idea of her driving a diesel truck is amusing. Maybe if I paint it pink and put some sunflower hub caps on.

Also, if this project pans out, might get into making some biodiesel for shits and giggles since I have easy access to lots of fry oil for free, and that would drop incremental fuel costs by about 75%. (And my mom has a Cummins diesel truck and at some point would probably get a diesel tractor.)

Vanessa drove my dually just fine on more then a few injured occasions. Plus if bio diesel is your thing the older 7.3l truck are ready to convert, no injector or fuel system changes needed, just a tank heater and you're done.

That layout of truck isnt all that large, i'd say about as big or slightly bigger as your tree sap danger truck.

[heypal]

Wj body jeep.

[Vettezuki]

Can't do anything at the moment as I'm in the middle of financing, but this looks interesting. Given the resources of MG, I'm guessing whatever the issue is would not be too difficult to figure out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-chevrolet-blazer-s-10-4x4-red-strong-engine-but-needs-mechanical-work-/251181209517?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a7b9117ad

[Shaolin Crane]

http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc322/ShaolinCrane/stangfan_zpsecc1894a.jpg

[Vettezuki]

:clapping:

[Small White Car]

http://amceaglenest.com/images/1986AMCEagleLimitedstationwagon.jpg

Might find one or two that haven't returned to their base minerals yet...

:p

[C5Natie]

It's for my 5' tall, 100 pound Japanese wife who presently drives the Hello Kitty themed Miata. She also enjoys speeding tickets (this might help that at least!) and hitting things. . .

Though the idea of her driving a diesel truck is amusing. Maybe if I paint it pink and put some sunflower hub caps on.

Also, if this project pans out, might get into making some biodiesel for shits and giggles since I have easy access to lots of fry oil for free, and that would drop incremental fuel costs by about 75%. (And my mom has a Cummins diesel truck and at some point would probably get a diesel tractor.)

You dont live near Glendora do you? Saw an asian girl getting out of a Hello Kitty decked out miata at the gym. Lol. I think it was blue but she looked a little taller then 5ft.

[C5Natie]

She will fit better in this...lol
http://www.joelfeder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/IMG_3632.jpg

[Vettezuki]

You dont live near Glendora do you? Saw an asian girl getting out of a Hello Kitty decked out miata at the gym. Lol. I think it was blue but she looked a little taller then 5ft.

Ha! Maybe her Doppelgänger. Anyway, figuring out what we're going to do with this side issue. The Miata is still marginally valuable and all things considered, for her, the commute, and the road a Nissan Juke is looking like a good option. Another possibility, since if I do this I don't have to keep the one buck truck, is to sell it and get something else, like the S10 Blazer, which she could drive on bad weather days.

[Vettezuki]

Zeroing in on a 2003 S10 Blazer. Prefer 4d 4x4 if possible. Budget around $6k lets say. The reason for the 2003 is that there is a Baytech CNG conversion that is CARB legal. Me mum and I work fairly close to one another and we can carpool when weather is good (most of the time, reducing commute costs to minor) and my wife can keep her Hello Kitty Miata. When weather is bad, she can take over the Blazer, I can take my Wrangler and me mum her Cummins Diesel.

[enkeivette]

You need to convince your wife to get an STI or an Evo. Its AWD so she wont get stuck, and powerful enough to get her unstuck out of the mud, or to get her away from thugs if they try to chase her down.

So ya, get an STI or an Evo, unless you dont care about your wifes safety.

[Vettezuki]

You need to convince your wife to get an STI or an Evo. Its AWD so she wont get stuck, and powerful enough to get her unstuck out of the mud, or to get her away from thugs if they try to chase her down.

So ya, get an STI or an Evo, unless you dont care about your wifes safety.

My wife holds the world record for most speeding tickets in Hyndai Accent. She approaches the gas pedal as something more like a switch. At least she's not as bad as her mother who learned to drive from a Tokyo cab driver . . you really are only ever stopped, accelerating or decelerating and as long as there is a milometer of separation you're good . . . at speed.

Probably she'll keep the Miata for dry weather and I'm thinking to get the Blazer, possibly with a CNG conversion and carpool with my mom most of the time, Then when it's nasty, the wife takes the Blazer and we take the Wrangler or Cummins.

[enkeivette]

You have a cummins now?

[Vettezuki]

You have a cummins now?

My folks do. The property I'm talking about is combining my wife and I with my folks. Hence the carpooling idea. We'll be living at the same address and commuting into the OC relatively close to each other.

The tough bit for me is I'd be fairly radically shifting my lifestyle schedule towards earlier morning. Ick. But, change itself is good sometimes.

[Shaolin Crane]

I've been seeing a ton of CNG vehicles on CL lately. Fucking cheap too.

[Vettezuki]

I've been seeing a ton of CNG vehicles on CL lately. Fucking cheap too.

It's almost entirely Civics, Crown Vics and commercial it seems.

[Shaolin Crane]

It's almost entirely Civics, Crown Vics and commercial it seems.

I've seen a few f150's some jeeps, 4x4 vans and even a c4 vette.

[Vettezuki]

I've seen a few f150's some jeeps, 4x4 vans and even a c4 vette.

Well, if you cross a Jeep or other SMALLER SUV/CUV, let me know, could be interesting. Don't go out of your way, just if you stumble on it.

[Shaolin Crane]

Well, if you cross a Jeep or other SMALLER SUV/CUV, let me know, could be interesting. Don't go out of your way, just if you stumble on it.

I'll do my thang. But seriously a 92-96 f150 xcsb isnt all that much larger then some of the vehicles you listed. Just sayin. Hell that's my idea of small. A normal SUV, to me, would be an Excursion :p

[enkeivette]

Id rather be Cummins than Stroke'n!

[blackax]

Id rather be Cummins than Stroke'n!

#1 Duramax
#2 Cummins (very close to my #1)
#3 Powerstroke

[Shaolin Crane]

#1 Duramax
#2 Cummins (very close to my #1)
#3 Powerstroke

Powerstroke
Coummins
Mercedes
Isuzu
Duramax

[blackax]

Powerstroke
Coummins
Mercedes
Isuzu
Duramax


Duramax=Isuzu
Coummins
Powerstroke
Mercedes

[Vettezuki]

I was going to ask about the Mercedes unit that's in the Jeeps. I thought it was supposed to be an excellent smaller diesel engine. :huh:

[enkeivette]

I was going to ask about the Mercedes unit that's in the Jeeps. I thought it was supposed to be an excellent smaller diesel engine. :huh:

It is, I towed a car no problem but its not duramax giant. Im not towing any mobile homes in the near future

[Vettezuki]

It is, I towed a car no problem but its not duramax giant. Im not towing any mobile homes in the near future

I'm thinking more like life cycle. Will it, with proper oil changes, etc., last say 500k plus miles. I've heard people with the Volkswagen TDI (Jetta) going well beyond 500k. Certainly people are up there with the Cummins as that's really just about a commercial engine. But since I'm targeting something smaller like a Liberty sized vehicle, they do (I think) have the Merc diesel motor like your Cherokee.


I'm toying with the idea of one since I have access to lots of fry oil and making biodiesel. Apparently this can get down to way under $1 gal if you get into it. We'll have the Cummins already, so that would be two vehicles that could use it.

[Vettezuki]

Oh hell, I didn't realize there was a diesel Isuzu trooper! John, please advise. Were these engines any good?

[blackax]

Oh hell, I didn't realize there was a diesel Isuzu trooper! John, please advise. Were these engines any good?

You can only get the first half of the 1st gen in a diesel so up to 1986. They last forever but they make next to no power, something like 80HP and 99 Lb-Ft and they are loud.

They get like 30 MPG so much better then the 2.3 that would of came in those years.


You might be able to find people that have swaped in a 3.1 diesel from the over sea's trooper.

[Vettezuki]

You can only get the first half of the 1st gen in a diesel so up to 1986. They last forever but they make next to no power, something like 80HP and 99 Lb-Ft and they are loud.

They get like 30 MPG so much better then the 2.3 that would of came in those years.


You might be able to find people that have swaped in a 3.1 diesel from the over sea's trooper.

Thanks for the input. If I go diesel, looking like a Liberty with Merc diesel, unless someone has another idea for a small disel powered SUV. Looks like there are some good examples of the S10 blazer for rather less, but I can't get a definitive answer on CNG conversion, they're listed as certified but I can't seem to find anyone who does it (and it has to be done by a certified shop for that mod.)

And no Guy, an F150 is not about the same size, it's literally feet longer than a Rav4 or Liberty. :smack:

[Shaolin Crane]

Thanks for the input. If I go diesel, looking like a Liberty with Merc diesel, unless someone has another idea for a small disel powered SUV. Looks like there are some good examples of the S10 blazer for rather less, but I can't get a definitive answer on CNG conversion, they're listed as certified but I can't seem to find anyone who does it (and it has to be done by a certified shop for that mod.)

And no Guy, an F150 is not about the same size, it's literally feet longer than a Rav4 or Liberty. :smack:

No its not. A regular cab short bed is just as short as any other compact 4x4. They're extremely light and scoot because they are that way.

[Shaolin Crane]

I'm thinking more like life cycle. Will it, with proper oil changes, etc., last say 500k plus miles. I've heard people with the Volkswagen TDI (Jetta) going well beyond 500k. Certainly people are up there with the Cummins as that's really just about a commercial engine. But since I'm targeting something smaller like a Liberty sized vehicle, they do (I think) have the Merc diesel motor like your Cherokee.


I'm toying with the idea of one since I have access to lots of fry oil and making biodiesel. Apparently this can get down to way under $1 gal if you get into it. We'll have the Cummins already, so that would be two vehicles that could use it.

They have a single cab shortbed f250 with a 7.3l not un common to get a million miles out of a 7.3l

[Vettezuki]

No its not. A regular cab short bed is just as short as any other compact 4x4. They're extremely light and scoot because they are that way.

I don't think you realize how small these little SUVs are.

Seems Regular Cab short Box F-150 is 211" total length. (Unless I'm looking at the wrong thing, or there is a major difference between some years, which I doubt)

The biggest Rav4 (early 4 door) was 163", all others 147".

Both the Jeep liberty and Chevy S10 Blazer hovers around 174"

So the range of difference is between 67" and 37", yes, between five and three feet of total vehicle length! That is ENORMOUS when parking in a crowded parking lot.

[Shaolin Crane]

Overall length is 197" for what it is. That's not terribly larger. I'd says thats in the realm of sameish.
FWIW a common s10 has the same wheel base as the 92-97 f series trucks. So maybe overall larger by a tad, but same maneuverability.

Another FWIW, the rav4 info i came across showed an overall length of 182". With a 108-114" wheel base

[Vettezuki]

Overall length is 197" for what it is. That's not terribly larger. I'd says thats in the realm of sameish.
FWIW a common s10 has the same wheel base as the 92-97 f series trucks. So maybe overall larger by a tad, but same maneuverability.

Another FWIW, the rav4 info i came across showed an overall length of 182". With a 108-114" wheel base


Still several feet in length, and in some cases 25%. Sameish? A Liberty and an S10 is Sameish, within inches. But 197" vs the below is different worlds.

Rav4
1998–2000 4-door: 4,160 mm (163.8 in)
1998–1999 2-door: 3,750 mm (147.6 in)
1994–1997 2-door: 3,740 mm (147.2 in)
1994–1997 4-door: 4,150 mm (163.8 in)

197 vs. 174~ (S10/Liberty) is still a couple feet, but maybe not the end of the world, except I'm after things like I mentioned, not a pickup.

[Shaolin Crane]

You never said no pickup. In fact I figured a pickup would be fine if you kept mentioning an s10

[Ryridesmotox]

If you want a cheap reliable diesel SUV, get an old K5 blazer with the CUCV package. Its a military grade beast with a 6.2 NA diesel. Banks sells turbo kits, or used to, or you can mod up the turbos from a 6.5 fairly easily. I loved my suburban with the 6.5, kinda gutless compared to a power stroke or a Cummins of the same years... BUT I logged 22-24mpg highway regularly albeit at 60mph, but hey its a diesel, I wasn't trying to break any land speed records.

[Vettezuki]

You never said no pickup. In fact I figured a pickup would be fine if you kept mentioning an s10

True I didn't specify SUV, just gave examples. The S10 was mentioned to me as a difference between it and the K5 Blazer, as in S10 platform, but an SUV. That's what I was referring to.

The K5 CUCV is fucking awesome, a nearly perfect prepper/survivalist vehiclefor stupid rugid simplicity. But I don't see my Hello Kitty Miata driving wife switching between that and the CUCV to park in front of our music school (if she even could manage, which is doubtful). Though the amusement factor would be pretty high!

[Ryridesmotox]

Aww she could park it. It has power steering (I think lol). I just figured I would throw it out there. Even for being a 'full size' SUV they still aren't THAT much bigger than an S-10 blazer. And the military proved that it can run on just about anything that can burn, although the injector pump may not like you for it.

[Vettezuki]

There's a reason she's in about the smallest car made . . .

I know of guys running something like 50/50 diesel used motor oil in those CUCVs. :smack:

[Vettezuki]

FINALLY got a concrete answer regarding CNG conversion in California. I'm a bit disappointed, but not terribly surrpised.

The Kit for hte conversion must be CARB certified FOR THAT MODEL. Period.
But wait, there's more. You can only convert a new car, that is you have to use a CARB kit on the current model year in the current year. If you bought a 2012 and wanted to convert it in January you couldn't get it certified and registered. If you show up for a smog test with a CNG conversion, they'll either notice the fuel system has been modified or get real curious why your engine is burning radically cleaner than normal levels, you'll likely be flagged and won't be able to register. Probably get nailed with hefty fines for modifying the fuel system.

So, now strongly leaning towards a Diesel Liberty.

Something like this.
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/3316973985.html

[Damian]

Thats whats fucking stupid with this country. If you can do something to your vehicle to burn clean as hell, cant do it without that stupid CARB sticker. Tell me CARB is for cleaner air and not the money.

[Ryridesmotox]

CARB is starting a new 'fee' (read TAX) this year from what I understand. AR32 is the name of it I think. Apparently even though they ass rape us all for our money on cars (my registration has been going up yearly) they are still in 'the red' on the books. How can you steal so much money from people and still be negative gross income at the end of the year blows my god damned mind

[Vettezuki]

CARB is starting a new 'fee' (read TAX) this year from what I understand. AR32 is the name of it I think. Apparently even though they ass rape us all for our money on cars (my registration has been going up yearly) they are still in 'the red' on the books. How can you steal so much money from people and still be negative gross income at the end of the year blows my god damned mind

Well, they have a lot of people with six figure salaries to pay for sitting around with their thumbs up their ass half the time, and ruling over the public like petulant dictators the other half. Gotta come from somewhere and that would be you, dutiful tax serf.

May get the S10 Blazer, make moonshine and run E50.

[Ryridesmotox]

Well, they have a lot of people with six figure salaries to pay for sitting around with their thumbs up their ass half the time, and ruling over the public like petulant dictators the other half. Gotta come from somewhere and that would be you, dutiful tax serf.

May get the S10 Blazer, make moonshine and run E50.

If you have enough land just start boring holes around the property and pump out your own oil. Refine it, sell it to motorgen guys tax free, and we can all put middle fingers up to the communists that are running this state to hell in a hand basket.

[Vettezuki]

Hydrocracking petroleum is a pretty intense process. :smack:

But I could do the biodiesel thing with a little scale and sell off surplus. I have considered that. Making it is perfectly legal and so is using though I *think* you're supposed to file a form for how many miles you've driven on home brew and pay some sort of a road tax. Which honestly I wouldn't really mind as it's at least something like fee for service. EXCEPT the douche bags raid that for other bullshit too. Why should I respect people who are systemically dishonorable and institutions that are corrupt?

[Vettezuki]

It just dawned on me that I have a Wrangler (that I'll never sell). Maybe just a CRD + Auto swap. I've done this shit before and it would be legal, because Wranglers of later years than mien had exactly those engines. Now, if I could just find one. Wonder what they cost?

[Ryridesmotox]

As i recall, in California the engine number has to correspond to a more recent build date that the frame of the car. If not it won't be smog legal from what I have read. That's why you can go put an LS 1 in a 66 chevelle but you can put the 66 chevelle motor in the vette you took the LS1 out of

[Vettezuki]

As i recall, in California the engine number has to correspond to a more recent build date that the frame of the car. If not it won't be smog legal from what I have read. That's why you can go put an LS 1 in a 66 chevelle but you can put the 66 chevelle motor in the vette you took the LS1 out of

I've done a swap before, I have an LS in my 82 Vette. That's sort of the starting point, but there's more to it than that and so many grey areas of referee interpretation it gets difficult. The other part is engine and chassis class. For example I can't put a Dodge Cummins I6 in my Wrangler because it never had any engine remotely like it. I could put a Hemi V8 in it, but I'm not sure if any Wrangler in the states ever had a diesel like the Jeep Liberty did and that's where it get tricky because you're basically calling the car by a new car type. For example, my Vette is now considered a 2001 F-Body, it was ok because the engine was an SBC like most Vettes and it was newer than the original.

[Ryridesmotox]

Yep, just another example of a government being over powered. It shouldn't matter what engine one has as long as it passes smog for that engine type. I hate this state more and more everyday. I want to move to Idaho or maybe back to Oregon. Put a diesel in whatever you pick and put no soot traps or mufflers. When you see a Prius with the window rolled down, or someone with an Obama sticker, or a Boxer, Einstein, or other d-bag politician; roll 10 lbs of coal into their front seat. I miss doing that with my old suburban. Those morons support the kind of communist legislation that puts the handcuffs on everyone. I should be able to do what I want, when I want on my own property as long as it doesn't negatively effect my neighbors... like making a method lab or something.

[enkeivette]

Ya well the Benz diesel is a commercial engine, comes from those fleet trucks that Fed Ex uses. Plus the mercedes turbos last forever.

Powerstroke turbos not so much.

And by mobile home I meant mobile home, not motor home. Haha, Im sure I could tow a motorhome.

[enkeivette]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gOcJmpEeqI&sns=em

[Shaolin Crane]

Ya well the Benz diesel is a commercial engine, comes from those fleet trucks that Fed Ex uses. Plus the mercedes turbos last forever.

Powerstroke turbos not so much.

And by mobile home I meant mobile home, not motor home. Haha, Im sure I could tow a motorhome.

There are a few powerstroke engines, dont forget that. My reference of powerstrokes is to the 7.3l which is the only one to have proven itself so far. My first turbo lasted 180k until I did the manual wastegate conversion and pushed it to 40psi. The acceptable range is 28-30. After blowing up the 08, i'm back to the 7.3l. For good reason too.

FWIW alot of the mercedes use garret turbos. Or rajay turbos, which are still garret. Same as the powerstrokes, and many other OE's.

[enkeivette]

Wow it looks like there were 2 pages between my response and my last read.

Guy, my turbo has a pretty lil silver star on it, and thats hard to believe.

Also, you were fantastically wrong about short F-150s being close in length to Libertys. Ben even proved you wrong with actual specs and you sill refused to admit it.

Ben, the libertys use a turbo 4cyl diesel. Different engine, but still very good. In fact I think they get close to 30mpg, and you can find those cheap since Libertys are girl cars.

I dont know much about running biodiesel. I used to run B20 in SD. I think some 2007 and later vehicles have issues with anything over B20. Youre supposed to change your fuel seals to teflon.

And I also remember reading that the Duramax diesels cant run black diesel because of a translucent sensor. But it doesnt sound like youre trying to run black diesel anyways.

[Vettezuki]

Yeah, guess the Liberty diesel is an Italian job of some sort. Anyway, there really aren't terrible modern engines, they just won't be accepted by the market.

Biodiesel has some gnarly solvent properties that just softens the shit out of everything and makes them turn to goo, but at least teflon turns this into a non-issue. Guy is right about that.

I think that road is going to be ok except for when it's really raining, and on those days I can just take my wife in the Wrangler. We'll see how it goes. If it turns into a headache, probably just sell the Miata and get a Juke! It's adorable.

I'm going to be selling my truck anyway, and if the Protege doesn't cut it I'll sell that too, then get something like a diesel Liberty (I'm a princess) or if legally possible in CA, maybe do a diesel swap to my Wrangler. But I'm not sure there were ever any diesel Wranglers in the States, so that may not fly.

[Shaolin Crane]

Wow it looks like there were 2 pages between my response and my last read.

Guy, my turbo has a pretty lil silver star on it, and thats hard to believe.

Also, you were fantastically wrong about short F-150s being close in length to Libertys. Ben even proved you wrong with actual specs and you sill refused to admit it.

Ben, the libertys use a turbo 4cyl diesel. Different engine, but still very good. In fact I think they get close to 30mpg, and you can find those cheap since Libertys are girl cars.

I dont know much about running biodiesel. I used to run B20 in SD. I think some 2007 and later vehicles have issues with anything over B20. Youre supposed to change your fuel seals to teflon.

And I also remember reading that the Duramax diesels cant run black diesel because of a translucent sensor. But it doesnt sound like youre trying to run black diesel anyways.
I don't see how i'm "fantastically" wrong when I never mentioned a liberty. I still think its in the acceptable size area. We all have different definitions of measurement. I don't think 24" overall as being a huge difference. Others might as evidence of this thread.

And you're only partially correct about your turbo, its a borg warner turbo, which is a direct clone of garret turbos. I forgot that's what they run. So 3 different brands that are all nearly identical and used on a wide array of brands, when its STILL a fact that mercedes used Garret for many years and now uses a cheaper garret clone in current applications.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yeah, guess the Liberty diesel is an Italian job of some sort. Anyway, there really aren't terrible modern engines, they just won't be accepted by the market.

Biodiesel has some gnarly solvent properties that just softens the shit out of everything and makes them turn to goo, but at least teflon turns this into a non-issue. Guy is right about that.

I think that road is going to be ok except for when it's really raining, and on those days I can just take my wife in the Wrangler. We'll see how it goes. If it turns into a headache, probably just sell the Miata and get a Juke! It's adorable.

I'm going to be selling my truck anyway, and if the Protege doesn't cut it I'll sell that too, then get something like a diesel Liberty (I'm a princess) or if legally possible in CA, maybe do a diesel swap to my Wrangler. But I'm not sure there were ever any diesel Wranglers in the States, so that may not fly.

I have a buddy with a 60's CJ with a 6.0. Fun toy to say the least.

[Vettezuki]

I have a buddy with a 60's CJ with a 6.0. Fun toy to say the least.

It'd be a hoot, but mine is a 91, so no skirting smog inspection. I thought for sure there was a diesel Wrangler in the 90s at some point, but it seems maybe not in the States, so that could be bust for a swap. :(

[enkeivette]

I don't see how i'm "fantastically" wrong when I never mentioned a liberty. I still think its in the acceptable size area. We all have different definitions of measurement. I don't think 24" overall as being a huge difference. Others might as evidence of this thread.

And you're only partially correct about your turbo, its a borg warner turbo, which is a direct clone of garret turbos. I forgot that's what they run. So 3 different brands that are all nearly identical and used on a wide array of brands, when its STILL a fact that mercedes used Garret for many years and now uses a cheaper garret clone in current applications.

I think Ben said there was a 3 to 5 foot difference, and you said they were the same. I date girls that size, pretty substantial difference.

And the Tremec T56 is a clone of the Borg Warner T56, but you wouldnt correct someone who called it a Tremec 6 speed. Theres a mercedes logo on my turbo, its a mercedes turbo.

[Shaolin Crane]

I think Ben said there was a 3 to 5 foot difference, and you said they were the same. I date girls that size, pretty substantial difference.

And the Tremec T56 is a clone of the Borg Warner T56, but you wouldnt correct someone who called it a Tremec 6 speed. Theres a mercedes logo on my turbo, its a mercedes turbo.

Fine i'm wrong about the size :rolleyes: and yes I would correct someone who called it a tremec 6 speed being that the t56 isnt the only tremec six speed. Guess what, my garret turbo has a ford logo on it too. There's also a garret turbo and an allied sticker from the company who assembled the turbo. Same turbo will have an international logo on it if it came in the same truck. What's your point again?

[enkeivette]

My point is that its a Mercedes turbo, show me something other than your flapping gums to make me believe otherwise. ;)

[enkeivette]

Fine i'm wrong...

Today... is a day... that will live in infamy.

[Vettezuki]

Today... is a day... that will live in infamy.

:smack:

Though he's right about OEM processes. Tons of parts are made by parts suppliers and then "branded" for the individual makes. The Japanese went even further sharing common R&D among otherwise competing brands to drive that cost down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrett_AiResearch

By 1962, Garrett was powering the world’s first turbocharged production car, the Oldsmobile Jetfire Rocket. This was followed by several other firsts, including the first turbocharged car to win the Indianapolis 500 (1968), the first turbo for a non sports car application (1977-Saab 99), the first mass production turbo for diesel engines (1978-Mercedes 300TD), and the first turbo to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans (1978-Renault)".

So Garret/Air Research was an OEM for Mercedes at one point for sure.

[Shaolin Crane]

My point is that its a Mercedes turbo, show me something other than your flapping gums to make me believe otherwise.
How's this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-GENUINE-OEM-GARRETT-TURBOCHARGER-FOR-JEEP-LIBERTY-2-8L-TURBO-DIESEL-/300589629158?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45fc89bee6&vxp=mtr
Hmmmm.
Oh look, another
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2823
Wait, cant be.
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2823
ZOMG
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f18528e
Hello,
I have a 2005 liberty CRD and it 90,000 miles on it. recently I have experienced smoking from the exhaust at idle. I replaced the pressure relief valve for the crankcase which is connected to the intake (preturbo). That did not solve my problem. I either have a turbo with bad seals or the engine is losing ring compression. After reading your message I am leaning more towards bad turbo. I have no warranty left so have gone on line to find a replacement turbo. The turbo is made by Garrett and I found one for $795.00 exchange. this is about 1200.00 less than the list at the dealer. What I am wondering is if anyone has experienced this oil burning smoke prior to finding out the turbo is bad or if I might have a larger problem in the engine.

Seems yours was offered with both a borg warner and a garret, probably cause, I dunno, they're identical.

[enkeivette]

Sorry to break your heart lover, but thats a different vehicle with a different engine. Mines a cherokee with a Turbo 6, not a Liberty with the 4

[enkeivette]

Ya I googled pics of a Liberty turbo and it says Garret right on there. Mine doesnt. But either way its kind of a moot point that youre making.

If Garret is manufacturing turbos for Mercedes theyre making them to the Mercedes engineers specs, and if theyre manufacturing for Ford theyre following the Ford engineers specs. I know because I worked for a company that sent out designs to China and Brazil, a lot of what the Chinese manufacturer made was crap... but when they made shit to our specs and got it right after the 10th time it was good. Because it was our design.

Im sure Ben knows what Im talking about.

[Vettezuki]

OEMs range from being given specs and even told how to make things to manufacturers using existing parts off the shelf as is. It's a full spectrum. My guess in the case of Mercedes and Garret, it's closer to the later, but with some tweaks beyond branding (maybe just specking higher grade bearings, slightly different vein geometry to match their engines more precisely, etc.). The main issue for a premium brand is creating the image of exclusivity and to a certain degree, they have to deliver on it at least a little. So how much of the turbo on the Cherokee is Mercede's and how much Garret? I don't know. It doesn't have to be 100% of one or the other. My guess though is that it's more Garret than Mercedes.

The fascinating bit is the philosophical question and how we relate, compare, and categorize differences among complex sets of variables. But that's a mighty different thread!

[enkeivette]

No one has shown that its a Garret turbo on the Cherokee. Guy was posting about a Liberty.

Btw, I like Garret turbos. Haha Turbo I6 Dan used to work for them.

[enkeivette]

And... that slightly different geometry on the Mercedes or mercedes engineered turbos, probably includes the larger oil supplys typical of a Mercedes turbo. Which would explain why their turbos last forever.

[Shaolin Crane]

Sorry to break your heart lover, but thats a different vehicle with a different engine. Mines a cherokee with a Turbo 6, not a Liberty with the 4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-300C-CRD-3-0L-Garrett-GT2056v-Turbo-charger-OM642-68037207AA-165Kw-/380346118955

[Shaolin Crane]

And... that slightly different geometry on the Mercedes or mercedes engineered turbos, probably includes the larger oil supplys typical of a Mercedes turbo. Which would explain why their turbos last forever.

That and people arent fucking with them like they are with other brands, the stock powerstroke turbos will last forever, until you try and squeeze 44lbs through them.

[enkeivette]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-300C-CRD-3-0L-Garrett-GT2056v-Turbo-charger-OM642-68037207AA-165Kw-/380346118955

It says its a direct replacement for the OEM turbo. Doesnt say its an OEM turbo. That one says Garrett on it, mine has a Mercedes logo. Close though! I was almost ready to admit defeat!! Haha

[enkeivette]

That and people arent fucking with them like they are with other brands, the stock powerstroke turbos will last forever, until you try and squeeze 44lbs through them.

Ohhh thats why youre all huffy and puffy, cuz I dissed the powerstroke turbos. Sorry guy... for what its worth I think those are bad ass engines. Id take a powerstroke over my engine just for the power any day

[Shaolin Crane]

It says its a direct replacement for the OEM turbo. Doesnt say its an OEM turbo. That one says Garrett on it, mine has a Mercedes logo. Close though! I was almost ready to admit defeat!! Haha

http://allworldautomotive.com/view_Genuine_Mercedes_Turbochargers_W211_W203_W219 _W209_A6420901480_Garrett_320_auto_part_photo_5026 3.html

The mercedes part number directly crosses to garret. Whether you refuse to accept it or not, these are take off units, straight off mercedes vehicles.

My FORD has ford logos on everything when I know international assembled and manufactured it. I can buy the same parts from an international dealer and get the same exact parts with an international logo.

My point is just because it's got a fancy start on it means nothing.

[enkeivette]

The tremec T56 is a direct replacement part number for the Borg Warner T56 son. It can become OEM even when it wasn't originally. There is a different glow plug control module available now too.

Otherwise explain my silver star logo versus that Garrett logo on the turbo in your link.

[Vettezuki]

. . . Otherwise explain my silver star logo versus that Garrett logo on the turbo in your link.

Just a side note. Otherwise identical products can be branded differently. That's common.

[enkeivette]

Can be. But I still havent seen proof of that, have you?

[enkeivette]

Haha, I think these arguments have become more me versus guy than anything car related. Its fun though since Im not working full time right now. Once I start working again Im sure I wont want to argue for free... haha

[Shaolin Crane]

I do it because it's entertaining and helps me forget my problems i'm having.

[enkeivette]

Trouble in paradise?

[Vettezuki]

Trouble in paradise?

He got another Ford.

[enkeivette]

Lol, that was below the belt.

[Shaolin Crane]

I wish that was the only problem :(
Lets say I stuck my head about as far up my ass as possible

[enkeivette]

Ya, testosterone can do that. Seems like you have a lot of it with all the fighting and smack talk. But hey, thats what girls are attracted to, and sometimes being a dick hole comes with the territory.

Just do something super romantic and silly. You make her crack a smile youve won her back.

[Shaolin Crane]

Ha, the smack talk is mostly joking. The testosterone, well, yeah there's a lot of it. Who knows, there might even be some in the protein I used.