Ready for Boost... or is it?

[ZexGX]

For those of you that may or may not remember me (it's been a while), here's a pic of my car (before LED daytime running lights!)
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8140/p1040907cp.jpg

My flexplate broke when cruising out to SEMA (at the speed limit, I swear... 24 MPG FTL) and sheared off some bolts inside of the shortblock, and cracked the rear engine cover. The engine had to be pulled to go to the machine shop. So while it was pulled I decided to do a teardown to check the condition. Seemed ok aside from some "normal" very light scoring on the cylinder walls. So I decided that it was a good time for a rebuild. So if I was going to rebuild, then why don't I do it right and do a forged rebuild? And if I am forging a motor, why not build it for boost/NA and use ARP studs everywhere? With the right piston dish, all it would take to go from NA to FI configuration on the shortblock would be a change of heads/headgaskets. Oh, and since I had gone through all the trouble to make it a smog legal swap, I should try to keep it smog legal by being able to pass the sniffer by choosing a small cam which should also work for nitrous/boost.
:ugh:

Why did it take so long (it's been down since SEMA)? Well, the only place I could tow it to within my 200 mile tow range was my parents house in the desert. Their house is 100 miles from my apartment in Burbank. To work on the car I have to drive my gas-guzzling 4x4 Jeep 200 miles a weekend, which equates to $120+ in gas over a weekend (depending on how much weight I have in the back of the Jeep, like a longblock, for example).

So, this is what I have sitting in my car right now, waiting for stuff to be bolted back together (not much). Needs intake manifold-up bolted on, a couple of accessories-forward bolted on, shorty headers and cats bolted on, misc. (like Lowes catch-can, sensors), and fluids/bleeding. Hoping to get it started on Sunday.

People with nearly identical shortblocks have reported around 750RWHP @ 15PSI on dynos.

2001 LS1 (346ci) block
Honed to a 347ci (3.905" bore)
Clevite S & P series bearings throughought
ARP head studs & ARP main studs
Stock 3.622" iron crank (micro-polished & balanced)
Lunati LAE1 connecting rods
Diamond Racing -8.6cc pistons. Coated tops w/heat rejection coating, coated skirts with antifriction coating.
Stock 241 heads milled 0.045" (59cc?)
0.051" compressed MLS headgaskets
Patriot .660" lift dual springs
Stock rocker arms with COMP trunion bearing upgrade
Degreed cam on install
Custom grind 218/230 .605/.605 115+2 cam with COMP XFI lobes
SLP oil pump/SLP double roller timing set
42# Lucas/Delphi injectors
LS6 intake manifold
LS6 PCV system
P&P stock throttle body
Stock MAF
JBA shorty headers
2.5" Bassani true duals

Driveline:
Stock 4L60E
BDR 2200ish stall 12" torque converter
OEM aluminum driveshaft
Stock 3 channel 10 bolt with 3.42 gears/torsen carrier

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4255/forged.jpg

WIP shot:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9007/forgedls1shortblock.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9422/20110423090821894.jpg

[SeanPlunk]

Congrats Lee, that'll be awesome. What power adder are you leaning towards?

[Vettezuki]

I'm tentatively calling BS on the reported 750 RWHP with 1 bar psi on a 347. But it's going to be great anyway.

[Kozak]

What do you people do for a living? I can barely afford gas in mine, let alone go fast parts:hail:

[Shaolin Crane]

What do you people do for a living? I can barely afford gas in mine, let alone go fast parts:hail:

Top ramen and pb&j

[Chuck]

I Hustle!!

YouTube - ‪KATT WILLIAMS: Every Day I'm Hustlin'‬‏

[94cobra69ss396]

How far down in the hole are the pistons and what is the current compression?

[blackax]

700 hp will be a little much with a stock ls1 displacement and 15 PSI

I would peg it more to about 650

[ZexGX]

For shits n giggles, a Photoshopped pic of my car:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4663/dualfmic.jpg

Congrats Lee, that'll be awesome. What power adder are you leaning towards?
I am thinking a pullied Vortech G-trim, air-air intercooler[s], and methanol. Hoping for 500-650rwhp. It should also be able to handle a 200-250 shot of nitrous if I couldn't pull off a centrifugal.

I'm tentatively calling BS on the reported 750 RWHP with 1 bar psi on a 347. But it's going to be great anyway.
I'm sure the cam was different, and it had good heads, and a sheet metal intake (or something like that). Just going off of what I have read and what 2-3 people have told me. 15PSI is A LOT for a 347.

What do you people do for a living? I can barely afford gas in mine, let alone go fast parts:hail:
I'm in IT. :rolleyes:. My car is also paid off, so that helps. I started buying parts for this build in June of 2010 and have been shelling out $$$$ ever since. I moved in July and had to invest about $1000 into my Jeep to get it running properly just so I'd have a daily driver while my car was down. In fact, I'm replacing the water pump on the Jeep this weekend before I start working on the car. If you want to talk about barely affording gas, I'm right there with you. ;)

<CENSORED>
SHHHHHH! WE MUST NOT LET THEM KNOW OUR ANCIENT MONEY MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES! :jester:

How far down in the hole are the pistons and what is the current compression?
They should be 0.007" OUT of the hole. Current static compression should be 10.3:1. Dynamic is within safe ranges. This is with 59cc heads (assuming stock heads are 59cc when milled 0.045"). Ideal for boosted applications would be 62cc-64cc heads, or so (depending on PSI). Bottom line, it should be fine right now for NA, and I'll switch the heads/lifters/injectors when going FI (even though the lifters are brand new, it's cheap insurance).

700 hp will be a little much with a stock ls1 displacement and 15 PSI

I would peg it more to about 650
How many forged 347ci LS1s have you seen at 15 PSI? None? Neither have I. :jester:

[94cobra69ss396]

They should be 0.007" OUT of the hole. Current static compression should be 10.3:1. Dynamic is within safe ranges. This is with 59cc heads (assuming stock heads are 59cc when milled 0.045"). Ideal for boosted applications would be 62cc-64cc heads, or so (depending on PSI). Bottom line, it should be fine right now for NA, and I'll switch the heads/lifters/injectors when going FI (even though the lifters are brand new, it's cheap insurance).

I come up with 10.33 with a .044 quench which is great. The engine should run strong. However, if you do go with a blower don't drop the compression by adding a thicker head gasket. A 64cc combustion chamber will drop the compression down to about 9.75 and would keep the .044 quench. That's a little high but with an intercooler or meth injection it won't be. Better yet would be a set of AFR's with 72cc combustion chambers which would give you 8.97:1.

[ZexGX]

I come up with 10.33 with a .044 quench which is great. The engine should run strong. However, if you do go with a blower don't drop the compression by adding a thicker head gasket. A 64cc combustion chamber will drop the compression down to about 9.75 and would keep the .044 quench. That's a little high but with an intercooler or meth injection it won't be. Better yet would be a set of AFR's with 72cc combustion chambers which would give you 8.97:1.

Believe it or not, I didn't even bother to do calculations to figure out quench distance. Definitely do not want to use a headgasket thicker than 0.051" anyways. Stock cylinder heads for these are 66.67cc - and I still have the stock unmilled heads from that motor, so in theory I could port those and then mill them X amount when I go boost to get the desired chamber size, or just fork out the cash for some nice ones. Every now and then I see a halfway-decent set going for sale on 'Tech for between $500 and $1000.

[94cobra69ss396]

A stock 66.67 combustion chamber would give you 9.47 compression which is still blower friendly.

[ZexGX]

A stock 66.67 combustion chamber would give you 9.47 compression which is still blower friendly.

I think the main concern with going over 66.67cc was the dynamic compression ratio with the cam I have... Made it a ridiculously low DCR.

[SkunkLookingCar]

Congrats on getting the engine together. What alloy are the pistons. 15psi might be a bit high for 4032 (ask enkivette) but 2618 will be able to handle the cylinder pressure. The valve reliefs look like they get pretty close to the edge of the piston which can be a stress riser. The thermal coating will help quite a bit though. The coating slows the annealing process that happens to all aluminum pistons when the temperture rises. Microhardness surveys of used pistons show the area of the piston where the valve reliefs come to the edge are the first areas to soften and the coating will keep the heat out of the metal keeping the piston stronger, longer. I agree with 94cobra69ss396 statement about the compression ratio and his suggested solutions.

[ZexGX]

Congrats on getting the engine together. What alloy are the pistons. 15psi might be a bit high for 4032 (ask enkivette) but 2618 will be able to handle the cylinder pressure. The valve reliefs look like they get pretty close to the edge of the piston which can be a stress riser. The thermal coating will help quite a bit though. The coating slows the annealing process that happens to all aluminum pistons when the temperture rises. Microhardness surveys of used pistons show the area of the piston where the valve reliefs come to the edge are the first areas to soften and the coating will keep the heat out of the metal keeping the piston stronger, longer. I agree with 94cobra69ss396 statement about the compression ratio and his suggested solutions.

Thanks. They are 2618 aluminum alloy. I had the coatings done after-the-fact since I bought the pistons NIB from someone and saved $300 over MSRP, so I took that savings and put the $300 towards coatings from Embee Performance. Not the most well known coating facility, but they are the largest local aerospace coatings company that caters to racing teams. Apparently they do the coatings for Ross and some other piston manufacturers.

This thread is a good read when it comes to forged engine longevity: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/1371173-long-term-effects-mileage-forged-motor.html
Maybe not the best piston choice for my power level, but I care more about them not cracking than slow oil consumption increases (unless it gets BAD...).

I am not capable of assembling/balancing a SHORTblock on my own, so I just bought all the parts necessary (except for the main studs) and had JMS Racing Engines (a shop in El Monte) purchase the main studs & do the line hone/balance/assembly the shortblock. My friends and I reassembled it from the head studs up.

[SkunkLookingCar]

Thanks. They are 2618 aluminum alloy. I had the coatings done after-the-fact since I bought the pistons NIB from someone and saved $300 over MSRP, so I took that savings and put the $300 towards coatings from Embee Performance. Not the most well known coating facility, but they are the largest local aerospace coatings company that caters to racing teams. Apparently they do the coatings for Ross and some other piston manufacturers.

This thread is a good read when it comes to forged engine longevity: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/1371173-long-term-effects-mileage-forged-motor.html
Maybe not the best piston choice for my power level, but I care more about them not cracking than slow oil consumption increases (unless it gets BAD...).

I am not capable of assembling/balancing a SHORTblock on my own, so I just bought all the parts necessary (except for the main studs) and had JMS Racing Engines (a shop in El Monte) purchase the main studs & do the line hone/balance/assembly the shortblock. My friends and I reassembled it from the head studs up.

Good stuff. I'd say your bottom end is up to the task.

[enkeivette]

Centrifugal is the way to go! ATI (Procharger) has some CARB legal kits, not sure about for the F-Body... but I'm sure they do.

Don't forget to open up those ring gaps if you're planning to blow in it that hard! Also, moly rings tend to lose strength with pinging, while stainless rings don't. That's why I went with Total Seal stainless my second time around. Juuust a thought.

And yeah, 15 psi on 4032 is pushing it. You'll need to intercool without question, and pull timing. 2018 is the way to go. But if you already bought the pistons, just be sure to run it intercooled.

[ZexGX]

Got it running on Sunday. Runs very good. Tune is set to 22* of timing and pig-rich for safety. No detectable oil blowby whatsoever after the first initial startup "puff" even when following the GM factory new car engine/driveline break-in procedure. Very little to no piston slap (WAY less than a stock LS1... for now...). It's throwing two knock sensor codes and a MAF code (P0101, so it's on SD tables), regardless of the MAFs I tried (32k stock, or 92k descreened which was verified working). It's either a grounding issue or a tune issue (probably grounds/wires). Will be trying a few things tonight with the grounds. Sounds very healthy and idle vibration is way smoother than stock. Valvetrain noise stands out less than stock as well. The 42lb injectors are louder than the valvetrain. I guess that's a good thing. Rocker arms were torqued properly and 7.325" pushrods were used. Pulls just as hard as a stock LS1/T56 car through first and second. T56 car doesn't have 3rd or 4th so I couldn't do any testing through those gears.

Oh, and I got 21MPG on the drive back, that's all with a safe base tune and going WOT a few times, and speeds ranging from 65-75 for most of the way. I know it's rich because it backfires every once in a while on deceleration when holding a gear.

Changed the oil after the first ring-seating adventure. Cut open the filter with a bandsaw. Lots of metal dust but very few to no slivers or chunks. Awesome.

Centrifugal is the way to go! ATI (Procharger) has some CARB legal kits, not sure about for the F-Body... but I'm sure they do.
P1SC is the CARB legal F-body kit, D1SC is the more popular one. I'm only planning on Vortech because I may get a deal on one from a friend.


Don't forget to open up those ring gaps if you're planning to blow in it that hard! Also, moly rings tend to lose strength with pinging, while stainless rings don't. That's why I went with Total Seal stainless my second time around. Juuust a thought.
Mine are Total Seal brand, but they are not stainless steel. I figure by the time I can afford to go boost, the ring gaps will have opened up enough to handle the boost.


And yeah, 15 psi on 4032 is pushing it. You'll need to intercool without question, and pull timing. 2018 is the way to go. But if you already bought the pistons, just be sure to run it intercooled.
Already posted that they're 2618 alloy, and an intercooled setup was always the plan.

[ZexGX]

YouTube - &#x202a;It's alive!&#x202c;&rlm; gutted cats bolted on temporarily for first startup/break-in, x-pipe not hooked up for this video

[Shaolin Crane]

I like

[enkeivette]

Mine are Total Seal brand, but they are not stainless steel. I figure by the time I can afford to go boost, the ring gaps will have opened up enough to handle the boost.


I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure ring gaps don't 'open up.' What are your 1st and 2nd gaps?

[enkeivette]

YouTube - &#x202a;It's alive!&#x202c;&rlm; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6q308ImbRU) gutted cats bolted on temporarily for first startup/break-in, x-pipe not hooked up for this video

Hells yeah man, come along way since a V6.

[Vettezuki]

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure ring gaps don't 'open up.' What are your 1st and 2nd gaps?

:iagree:

[ZexGX]

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure ring gaps don't 'open up.' What are your 1st and 2nd gaps?

Oh, I was under the impression that as a motor gets more miles put on it, the ring gap starts to slowly increase as a result of the ring slowly being abraded on the cylinder wall over time... Rings do not ever wear out? Should have told that to my motor BEFORE it started drinking 1qt every 1,300 miles and smoking at WOT. Which it was like that since day 1. Hopefully that's fixed now. Stock LS1's are notorious for oil consumption and blow-by. I'll probably put on 20k-35k miles on it before it gets FI.

[SeanPlunk]

Congrats dude, looks great. Get that blower on now ;)

[enkeivette]

Oh, I was under the impression that as a motor gets more miles put on it, the ring gap starts to slowly increase as a result of the ring slowly being abraded on the cylinder wall over time... Rings do not ever wear out? Should have told that to my motor BEFORE it started drinking 1qt every 1,300 miles and smoking at WOT. Which it was like that since day 1. Hopefully that's fixed now. Stock LS1's are notorious for oil consumption and blow-by. I'll probably put on 20k-35k miles on it before it gets FI.

Yes rings wear out, but the ring gaps do not change in size smart ass. :rolleyes2::drink:

The ring gap is the measured distance between the ring ends, not the ring and the cylinder wall. As the ring heats, the ends get pushed closer together.

Boosted engines run hotter and generally require like an extra .01 or so, so that the ring ends (worn rings or not) do not meet, forcing the ring up, putting pressure on the ring land. Causing your already stressed out boosted piston to break off the ring land.

If anyone knows about destroying pistons it's me. :D

[enkeivette]

http://image.mustangmonthly.com/f/16300160/mump_0905_10_z+289_budget_build+piston_ring_end_ga p.jpg

[ZexGX]

Yeah, sorry. Long day yesterday. I got 2 hours of sleep. Got home at 4:30, slept at 4:50, woke up at 6:50. Took a 5 Hour Energy Extra about an hour ago and it didn't do anything... Still have to drive to my friends house tonight in Simi Valley, install his wideband and tuning laptop for him, and go tuning with him riding shotgun.

[enkeivette]

Since you've already got the motor in the car, I wouldn't worry too much since you're staying relatively low boost and intercooled. My first set of rings were gapped for a NA motor.