New tuning on the cobalt ss/turbo

[Ryridesmotox]

Well, as most of you already know I have a 2010 Chevy Cobalt SS turbo. I started doing E85 tuning on my cobalt. Because of the direct injection system it is necessary for me to run a mix of E85 and 91 octane in a 50/50 ratio. 5 gallons of each at fill up. The mix is not 100% ideal but i still get most of the benefits of E85... I can run higher boost, ethanol has O2 molecules in the molecular chain, this allows me to run richer, which allows the engine to run more spark advance, which takes advantage of the slower burning ethanol, which gives more volume to the expanding gases helping my turbo work more efficiently, so yea I am stoked. Should be right around 370whp and 420lbs/torque when I get it dynoed next month. Not bad for a more or less stock 4 banger that weighs less than 3000lbs with me in it.

I am running HP tuners, 24 lbs of boost with a Treadstone Stage 3 bolt on system. I am still using the stock turbo. I just got an exedy hypersingle clutch installed as well to handle the power.

[Shaolin Crane]

I forsee a box a tranny parts in your future

[SkunkLookingCar]

Hows the torque steer with that much power? My friend with a Mazdaspeed 3 with intake, downpipe, test pipe, exhaust and a tune gets violent torque steer if there are any surface irregularities under hard acceleration.

[enkeivette]

That is intense. I want a ride in this thing! Ya my mom gets some torque steer in her SRT4 and she makes about 150 less hp than you. Haha.

Torque steer isn't all bad though. Can make driving more interesting. Is that thing limited slip at least???

[Damian]

I will be running 50/50 here soon too. I love E85.

That is quite a bit of power for a little car like that.

[SeanPlunk]

Where are you guys getting E85 from? I'd love to switch the Cobra over eventually, but the closest station I've found is Pomona which is too far away.

[mustangray]

The Cobalt sounds like fun, my buddy has a HHR SS with a procharger on the 2.0 running 25psi (stock motor) it's pulling over 320hp and has massive torque steer

[enkeivette]

I'd never supercharge a 4 cylinder. I knew this guy who Supercharged his Focus. I think he made 178 wheel horsepower.

Blowers just take too much power to drive to run one on a 4 cylinder, especially with low boost.

[Vettezuki]

I'd never supercharge a 4 cylinder. I knew this guy who Supercharged his Focus. I think he made 178 wheel horsepower.

Blowers just take too much power to drive to run one on a 4 cylinder, especially with low boost.

There's always exceptions, some of the insane Group B Rally cars from the 80s were supercharged.

[enkeivette]

I have a big nasty NA cam, and I blow a lot of my boost out the exhaust because my LSA is all wrong for a blower motor. But obviously it still makes power.

I didn't say you can't make power. I just wouldn't do it personally, there are much better ways.

[89StangGuy]

I'd never supercharge a 4 cylinder. I knew this guy who Supercharged his Focus. I think he made 178 wheel horsepower.

Blowers just take too much power to drive to run one on a 4 cylinder, especially with low boost.

+1 A friend of mine has a 92 Integra with a b18 and Jackson Racing supercharger and some bolt ons. I beat him with my mostly stock SVO running 12psi of boost.

[Ryridesmotox]

OK so yea torque steer makes this thing quite interesting haha... If you aren't paying attention it will pull you into the other lane of a drag strip or into a wall. I do have limited slip from the factory. As far as E85d goes I have a solution for you all... http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/ethanol_locations.html shows all of the E85 stations in America.

The HHR SS comes with a 2.0 turbo. With just a tune and a K&n drop in air filter that thing will make 320whp. I am helping a guy near me with tuning on his HHR SS. The thing is pretty fast, it will melt tires to second gear which is cool since its an automatic. I don't know why someone would take the turbo off to supercharge it but I have heard of weirder things. The old SS cobalt was supercharged with a Eaton M62. If you turbo swap it and run E with bigger injectors 500whp is easily achievable. Blowers take too much power on anything but a V-8 has the balls to overcome that.

Anyone that wants a ride in it is welcome to hop in for a bit before or after the next meet I attend... But I tend to drive rather ummmm aggressively so maybe bring an extra pair of undies.

Just to give you an idea of how fast it is, while tuning on HP tuners it shows that I am running 60-100 mph in as low as 4.8 seconds... the tune isn't done yet either so it will get close to 4.5 or quicker.

[jedhead]

I tend to agree about the blowers and V8. Mine eats over 90hp at redline.

Bob

[SkunkLookingCar]

I tend to agree about the blowers and V8. Mine eats over 90hp at redline.

Bob

How do you know how much power your blower is taking to drive?

[Ryridesmotox]

How do you know how much power your blower is taking to drive?

Unless I am mistaken, which happens quite often, all the supercharger companies test their products to know exactly how much parasitic drag it makes at a given RPM/PSI. That is a huge selling point for superchargers, the ones that give you the most power with the least drag increase efficiency and performance. It's almost like a flow chart on a turbo housing that shows proof of effeciency levels.

[Shaolin Crane]

Go N/A or go home, wait a minute....

[jedhead]

How do you know how much power your blower is taking to drive?

GM made the claim in one of the articles in one of the many magazines I read several years ago. The 90hp figure stayed with me because it was surprising number. Here is an article about the engine in Popular Hot Rodding. The final factory hp figure was 469/443.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/cadillac/0504em_cady/index.html

I am disappointed that GM stop development on the larger displacement DOHC V8, but the LSX seems to be going well and is much more compact in size.

Bob

[jedhead]

Unless I am mistaken, which happens quite often, all the supercharger companies test their products to know exactly how much parasitic drag it makes at a given RPM/PSI. That is a huge selling point for superchargers, the ones that give you the most power with the least drag increase efficiency and performance. It's almost like a flow chart on a turbo housing that shows proof of effeciency levels.

You are correct. The system for my engine is pretty well at its limits. Spinning it fast does bring in more boost quicker, but the intake temps really jump calling for Methanol injection to help cool not only the air but the supercharger itself. The wildest set up I seen was a car like mine that that an over boost pulley Methanol injection and twin rear mount turbos that pushed more air into the supercharger. The car dynoed at 650/600 at the rear wheels.

Bob

[Damian]

The one thing I dislike about superchargers is belt slippage and belts snapping. That's the main contribution to my descision to go turbo. That and I only have 1 s/c option and that's with a Vortech blower. They are even phasing that option out and only RIPP Mods makes a "kit" for us.

This makes me really want to get mine back on the road, and update my thread here.

[SkunkLookingCar]

GM made the claim in one of the articles in one of the many magazines I read several years ago. The 90hp figure stayed with me because it was surprising number. Here is an article about the engine in Popular Hot Rodding. The final factory hp figure was 469/443.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/cadillac/0504em_cady/index.html

I am disappointed that GM stop development on the larger displacement DOHC V8, but the LSX seems to be going well and is much more compact in size.

Bob

Well, that's embarrassing. I've never even heard of the LC3. So much for considering myself a car guy.

[Ryridesmotox]

Update: Looks promising for the most part. The E85/91 blend is allowing me to run alot more advance than usual. I am running into a problem however... Apparently my car is making too much power. I have reached the limit of my fuel system. The high pressure fuel pump isn't able to keep up with fuel demands. This happens after you start making more than 410lbs of torque (more or less) at the wheels. My only options at this point are to increase the 91 octane percentage or to increase the capacity of the high pressure fuel pump.

Sooooo in an attempt to find a solution I need to locate a diesel shop that can bore out the pump and install a larger piston. If anyone knows of a good place let me know. I am searching right now.

[jedhead]

Well, that's embarrassing. I've never even heard of the LC3. So much for considering myself a car guy.

There were installed in only two cars, STS-V and XLR-V which were made from 2006 to 2009.

Bob

[Kozak]

Well, that's embarrassing. I've never even heard of the LC3. So much for considering myself a car guy.

If it makes you feel better it was basically a smaller bore, supercharged Northstar motor.

[sinaSRT-4]

Update: Looks promising for the most part. The E85/91 blend is allowing me to run alot more advance than usual. I am running into a problem however... Apparently my car is making too much power. I have reached the limit of my fuel system. The high pressure fuel pump isn't able to keep up with fuel demands. This happens after you start making more than 410lbs of torque (more or less) at the wheels. My only options at this point are to increase the 91 octane percentage or to increase the capacity of the high pressure fuel pump.


That's a good thing. Looking forward to seeing your car again. Great numbers, btw! :D Those stock turbos that you guys are running must have some compressor wheels ranging in the 37-39 lb/per minute flow rates (comparable to a Mopar stage 3 turbo for the SRT [TD-05].

[Damian]

I didn't think a TD05 could make that much power. But, those Ecotech motors are pretty potent engines. The first time I've seen one in action (whooped me big time) was in a Saturn. I shocked the guys hand afterwards in amazement.

[sinaSRT-4]

I didn't think a TD05 could make that much power. But, those Ecotech motors are pretty potent engines. The first time I've seen one in action (whooped me big time) was in a Saturn. I shocked the guys hand afterwards in amazement.

Stock Stage 3 SRT-4 with 2.5 inch Exhaust, 100 octane fuel, and high octane mode acivated will net 370whp and about 400wtq. :) Pretty close to what the op is running. The new turbo SS Ecotecs are damn good engines though.

[Damian]

100 octane makes a huge difference though, there is no way either car could do that on CA 91, not with stock internals at least. Either way, that's still really good numbers. If I get to the point where I have to run 100 octane or E85, building my bottom end should happen first!

[Ryridesmotox]

Stock Stage 3 SRT-4 with 2.5 inch Exhaust, 100 octane fuel, and high octane mode acivated will net 370whp and about 400wtq. :) Pretty close to what the op is running. The new turbo SS Ecotecs are damn good engines though.

I think so too... Since a bone stock lower end can handle up to 500WHP... now the trans is a different story.

Another Update: My car is on the stock Kd04. It is actually running up to 41lbs/min of airflow at the MAF according to my HP tuners logs. The E85 netted me like 30hp and torque at the wheels so I would think that I am right about 425torque and 360-370whp but I have to dyno it to make sure. I may swap turbos but I would have to tune back to straight 91 octane. As it stands right now I might have to run 75% 91 octane to 25% E85 or a 60/40 mix of the two. The 50/50 is just not getting enough rail pressure right now. I am running like 950 psi at WOT through the meat of my powerband from 3500-5500rpm And that is when my computer and my foot are commanding 2200psi of rail pressure. I keep throwing low rail pressure codes. And when I do it throws me into reduced power mode. That being said I am still pulling 4.7 60-100mph runs on average. If I run more 91 I won't need to run as high of a rail pressure since I will be running more "rich" than with the higher E85 mix. But the more I lessen E85 in the mix the less timing advance I run... Right now I am about 20 degrees of advance at WOT.

[don2000]

I'd never supercharge a 4 cylinder. I knew this guy who Supercharged his Focus. I think he made 178 wheel horsepower.

Blowers just take too much power to drive to run one on a 4 cylinder, especially with low boost.

I turn 250hp out of my 2.2L 4 banger, a blower would work just fine.

[Damian]

That sucks with your fuel issues. Do you still have the stock fpr? I can't imagine a 255 not being able to keep up, I could be wrong though.

[Ryridesmotox]

That sucks with your fuel issues. Do you still have the stock fpr? I can't imagine a 255 not being able to keep up, I could be wrong though.

The tank fuel pump isn't the issue at this point in this power range, although when it does become an issue, walbro makes some bigger pumps I will have to look at. The high pressure pump isn't able to keep up with the demand at this point. The injectors are able to flow enough but there isn't enough fuel getting to them. The is just too much airflow in the midrange to keep a proper air/fuel ratio. I am at work right now but when I get to my personal computer I can post up a screen of the HP tuner log to show what I am talking about. It's crazy how low the pressure drops but I still get no knock. Thats the beauty of E85 though I guess. At this point my tuner and I are makinga few little tweaks to see if lowering the pressure slightly will assist with the issue (we believe the pump may be cavitating causing pressure fluctuation/drop).

[sinaSRT-4]

I think so too... Since a bone stock lower end can handle up to 500WHP... now the trans is a different story.

Another Update: My car is on the stock Kd04. It is actually running up to 41lbs/min of airflow at the MAF according to my HP tuners logs. The E85 netted me like 30hp and torque at the wheels so I would think that I am right about 425torque and 360-370whp but I have to dyno it to make sure. I may swap turbos but I would have to tune back to straight 91 octane. As it stands right now I might have to run 75% 91 octane to 25% E85 or a 60/40 mix of the two. The 50/50 is just not getting enough rail pressure right now. I am running like 950 psi at WOT through the meat of my powerband from 3500-5500rpm And that is when my computer and my foot are commanding 2200psi of rail pressure. I keep throwing low rail pressure codes. And when I do it throws me into reduced power mode. That being said I am still pulling 4.7 60-100mph runs on average. If I run more 91 I won't need to run as high of a rail pressure since I will be running more "rich" than with the higher E85 mix. But the more I lessen E85 in the mix the less timing advance I run... Right now I am about 20 degrees of advance at WOT.

So we're looking at about 410 hp to the crank if you're flowing about 41 lbs/min (MFR). Times about 10% drivetrain loss approx: 369 whp. Not bad for a stock turbo. :D

Less E85 will mean more boost to compensate for the reduced timing. But boost is still better than adding timing in tuning terms. Good luck with the pressure issues you have going on.

[Ryridesmotox]

So we're looking at about 410 hp to the crank if you're flowing about 41 lbs/min (MFR). Times about 10% drivetrain loss approx: 369 whp. Not bad for a stock turbo. :D

Less E85 will mean more boost to compensate for the reduced timing. But boost is still better than adding timing in tuning terms. Good luck with the pressure issues you have going on.

Yea it is pretty decent for a stock turbo I suppose.

I have been running the same amount of boost on the E85/91 mix as I have on straight 91 octane. The added timing I am getting and the increased fuel volume is where I'm getting most of the power. I can run the motor more rich because of the Oxygen molecules in the E85. Even though I am running alot more fuel in the cylinders it is still at .88 lamda +/- on the wide band sensor. Here are some screenshots of the log in two different shots on the same pull. The first shot is of the MAF at peak airflow and the second is highlighting the high demanded fuel pressure VS. lower actual pressure. If you have never looked at HP tuners before it can be confusing, the actual readings are where the vertical white line is on the graph.

http://cobaltss.net/gallery/files/5/5/9/6/0/e85logpic1.png
http://cobaltss.net/gallery/files/5/5/9/6/0/e85logpic2.png

[Damian]

What FPR are you using?

[Ryridesmotox]

What FPR are you using?

The computer controls fuel pressure in the high pressure pump. The LNF motor in the cobalt ss is direct injection. There is a "lift pump" in the tank, just like a diesel, and it is regulated to like 60 psi I think. But the low pressure pump is not the problem until like 500whp.

The fuel pressure is set to a certain demand, the high pressure injector pump tries to keep up but the fuel pressure in the rail drops because the injectors are open for so long. The stock injection window opens much later in the intake cycle. It is now beginning to spray at like 320* before top dead center and sprays until it is starting the compression stroke. Since my airflow across the MAF is quite high the HP pump can't keep up with demand since the injectors are open for so long. That is why I am seeing such a drop in fuel pressure in the rail.

[Boosten ya]

Any updates?

[Ryridesmotox]

As requested...

At this point my tuner, terminator2, has me reliably running E85/91 octane blend. He has kicked down the fuel rail demand a little to compensate for the supply issue through the torque range (3500-5500rpm) which is where I normally see fuel issues. That being said I don't make quite as much power as before when my car was always running into pressure issues of 950+/- actual vs. 2200 demanded fuel PSI. I am still showing peak MAF flow of about 41 lbs/minute. I will have some dyno results soon. I am going out of town for a funeral this weekend and the week after that I might be able to squeak into a dyno real quick to get some solid numbers.

Also in case anyone cares (I know I sure don't) fuel economy on my car right now is about 22mpg. That is about 98% highway cruising at 80mph with the cruise control on. From where I live in Carlsbad to Temecula for work. I'm not running the e for fuel economy, I have other tunes for that on my computer, I am running it for the extra 30hp it gives and saving $0.40 per gallon at the pump.

[Boosten ya]

Not bad man. Hope you can get your issues solved soon. I'm having some issues of my own, only able to run 3* of timing to not get any knock. I hope its a bad knock sensor.

[Ryridesmotox]

What car do you have? With HP tuners I can do most Domestics. I haven't tried to mess with any imports.

[Kozak]

I freeway raced a friend of mine from work Friday who has one of these. All he has is downpipe, exhaust and tune...I lost, but he refuses to race me from a dig! Which is my last hope, lol

[Boosten ya]

What car do you have? With HP tuners I can do most Domestics. I haven't tried to mess with any imports.

2008 mazdaspeed 3. I just hope the timing isn't off.

[SkunkLookingCar]

I freeway raced a friend of mine from work Friday who has one of these. All he has is downpipe, exhaust and tune...I lost, but he refuses to race me from a dig! Which is my last hope, lol

I hate going from a dig on my 04 GTO. Too much wheel hop.

[Ryridesmotox]

2008 mazdaspeed 3. I just hope the timing isn't off.

Dang, I don't think I can help you at all.

[Ryridesmotox]

I freeway raced a friend of mine from work Friday who has one of these. All he has is downpipe, exhaust and tune...I lost, but he refuses to race me from a dig! Which is my last hope, lol

I'll run you from a dig. Peferably on a track... I dont get traction til about 65 on the street... Before that it requires alot of right foot control. I dont have that much since I like to to just jam it to the floor lol. A track will give us both better taction.

[Boosten ya]

Dang, I don't think I can help you at all.

Dang, well I'm going to change out my knock sensor on saturday. We will see what happens. I'm not looking forward to taking the intake manifold off, again. I'll PM you maybe we can just take a look at it.

[Ryridesmotox]

Dang, well I'm going to change out my knock sensor on saturday. We will see what happens. I'm not looking forward to taking the intake manifold off, again. I'll PM you maybe we can just take a look at it.

Cool dude let me know for sure. I'll help however I can. I don't think HP tuners will read the PIDs properly so I can pull data logs of what your car is doing. But since it is basically a ford motor or ford is a mazda motor, maybe I can, only one way to find out... Where are you located?

[Boosten ya]

I can datalog my car, which is how I found out that ether my sensor is bad or the timing is off. I'm located in garden grove.

[Boosten ya]

Also my crank pos sensor was off by 1/2-3/4 of a tooth so now its correct and it did seem to help a little bit but not much.

[Ryridesmotox]

Ok let me know. Unfortunately I will be in Oregon all weekend for some family stuff. The week after I have a wedding, and the week after that I will be doing a softball tourney in Escondido... This month sucks for me. If you are still having issues with it in July I will be more than happy to help you out...

I don't even have time to install the motor and trans mount on my car to help with the torque steer and wheel hop.

[Boosten ya]

Hahaha wheel hop sucks, broke my cd player once cuz of it lol but ok sounds good man. Thanks I appreciate it.

[Ryridesmotox]

Fuck the cd player... I'm worried about my axles and my trans cases hahahaha

[Boosten ya]

Hahaha I snapped a axle at irwindale like a month ago, on street tires. I was pissed

[Ryridesmotox]

damn... how much power are you throwing down?

[Boosten ya]

I was having some issues with my tune and couldn't hold 15psi. So I would say about 275ish give or take and about 300ish tq.

[Ryridesmotox]

Is that all the MS3 axles will hold?

[Boosten ya]

It wasn't a stock axle. It was a cheap pos. I need to ether get another stock axle ($400) or one that handouts more power. ($$$).

[Ryridesmotox]

That sucks... Well good luck finding a replacement. I know for mine upgrades are damn expensive.

[Boosten ya]

yes sir. I want my car running 100% before I spend the money on axles.

[Kozak]

I hate going from a dig on my 04 GTO. Too much wheel hop.

Iirc, the 04s have a little weaker rear end and also I have an auto, so less wheel hop than the manuals, assuming you have a manual that is.

[Kozak]

I'll run you from a dig. Peferably on a track... I dont get traction til about 65 on the street... Before that it requires alot of right foot control. I dont have that much since I like to to just jam it to the floor lol. A track will give us both better taction.

You're putting down much more power than he is, don't think I can take you either way, lol. But I'm game, losing just happens sometimes I guess :surrender:

[SkunkLookingCar]

Iirc, the 04s have a little weaker rear end and also I have an auto, so less wheel hop than the manuals, assuming you have a manual that is.

OFF TOPIC: You're right, I'm a manual. It's the daily driver so i don't want to do any clutch slipping shenanigans so I tread the line between bogging down or getting wheel hop. I can't remember if there is a difference in the rear ends but I do know I have the weaker clutch.

ON TOPIC: No traction til 65...nice!