Ford Raptor not just a lifted Truck!

[Leedom]

Lets see Chevy, Dodge, Toyota, or Honda put one of their trucks out there like this.

Go FORD!!!

http://www.race-dezert.com/home/ford-raptor-dakar-2011-14108.html

[enkeivette]

I think the Raptor is prettier, but I'd trust a Duramax diesel and an Allison trans in a 4x4 Silverado to go the long haul over any Ford truck, any day.

Not saying the Raptor isn't a great truck, I'm sure it is. But Chrysler and GM both make worthy trucks aswell, whether they sponsor a truck in your race league of choice or not.

[94cobra69ss396]

Ford put that new engine through a lot of performance testing along with their normal testing. I'd trust it.

[Vettezuki]

I think the Raptor is prettier, but I'd trust a Duramax diesel and an Allison trans in a 4x4 Silverado to go the long haul over any Ford truck, any day.

Not saying the Raptor isn't a great truck, I'm sure it is. But Chrysler and GM both make worthy trucks aswell, whether they sponsor a truck in your race league of choice or not.

Totally different categories. The Raptor is a "sports" truck, I mean it's dervived from racing competition, not built for working (i.e., towing, hauling.)

[Chuck]

For 50k I'd buy a silverado and put 28k on mods for it and it would be top that any day.

[Leedom]

For 50k I'd buy a silverado and put 28k on mods for it and it would be top that any day.

I am saying that no other auto manufacturer out there has a Truck that could do what the Raptor does in "stock" form. Sure buy a Silverado for $35K and drop another $10K into is to get it to be as good or possibly better than the Raptor, but you can not drive a Chevy truck off the lot drop a cage in it and do what this truck does.

[Leedom]

I think the Raptor is prettier, but I'd trust a Duramax diesel and an Allison trans in a 4x4 Silverado to go the long haul over any Ford truck, any day.

Not saying the Raptor isn't a great truck, I'm sure it is. But Chrysler and GM both make worthy trucks aswell, whether they sponsor a truck in your race league of choice or not.

So you are saying that You could drive a Chevy Duramax 4x4 off the lot drop a cage in it and compete as well as the Raptor?

[Ryridesmotox]

Well if I had that kind of money to bust a nut on a truck, sure I would buy a raptor. But it doesn't fit in the mold that I would need. I like the duramax/allison but the Raptor would kill any other stock truck off road. There was a bad ass episode of Top Gear on the history channel where Tanner Foust was killing the desert in one, I was waiting for it to break apart and it never did... props to Ford.

[jedhead]

The best off the showroom off-road truck period. I drove it over at Barrett Jackson Las Vegas. I was surprised how soft the suspension was. I guess with all that travel, the suspension does not have to be so stiff.

Bob

[enkeivette]

Sport truck? The lightning is a sport truck, the raptor isn't. Performer? Well it isn't a 2wd truck, therefore it's too heavy to be a jump worthy performer, like the trophy trucks. And as far as being a practical truck to tow and haul, well it's not a diesel. So Duramax and Cummins and Powerstrokes win. So what good is it really? It's a Glamis cruiser. What else? Name a practical purpose for it.

Once again, great truck, top of its genre sure. But what genre? And who cares about that genre? No one in here has bought one... :judge: What would you, Leedom, do with this truck personally, that your Mustang or Chuck's diesel couldn't do better?

[Vettezuki]

Sport truck? The lightning is a sport truck, the raptor isn't.

"Sport" as in "Autosports". Say, Baja racing for exmample, which has several decades of fierce . . . wait for it . . . wait for it. . . competition. The Raptor is clearly and intentionally derived from that form of AUTOSPORTS. The Lightning? Let's take the muscle car idea and put it in a truck. Fine. But calling the Raptor not a Sport Truck belies a substantial blind spot or simple bias IMO.

Performer? Well it isn't a 2wd truck, therefore it's too heavy to be a jump worthy performer, like the trophy trucks.

Fair enough observation. But as far as stock trucks go it seems to be pretty stout for very serious off roading including jumping. Clearly no competition.

And as far as being a practical truck to tow and haul, well it's not a diesel. So Duramax and Cummins and Powerstrokes win. So what good is it really? It's a Glamis cruiser. What else? Name a practical purpose for it.

It's not intended to be practical. Tell the truth and shame the Devil, how practical is a Vette in day to day life? Not much. A TINY fraction of owners ever get anywhere near a track of any kind. This is all about perceived value and "posing".

Once again, great truck, top of its genre sure. But what genre? And who cares about that genre? No one in here has bought one... :judge: What would you, Leedom, do with this truck personally, that your Mustang or Chuck's diesel couldn't do better?

Fair enough. I wonder what the real vs. projected sales are?

[enkeivette]

"Sport" as in "Autosports". Say, Baja racing for exmample, which has several decades of fierce . . . wait for it . . . wait for it. . . competition. The Raptor is clearly and intentionally derived from that form of AUTOSPORTS. The Lightning? Let's take the muscle car idea and put it in a truck. Fine. But calling the Raptor not a Sport Truck belies a substantial blind spot or simple bias IMO.



Fair enough observation. But as far as stock trucks go it seems to be pretty stout for very serious off roading including jumping. Clearly no competition.



It's not intended to be practical. Tell the truth and shame the Devil, how practical is a Vette in day to day life? Not much. A TINY fraction of owners ever get anywhere near a track of any kind. This is all about perceived value and "posing".

Baja racing is not an argument, that is exactly why I brought up the AWD vs 2 wheel drive thing. Anyone seriously interested in owning a dezert race worthy truck following that genre of racing will go 2 wheel drive.

Notice anything missing? You just can't get enough travel out of a 4 wheel drive setup, it's too heavy, and for that sport, it is unnecessary.

http://image.off-roadweb.com/f/9400827+w750+st0/0707or_13_z+class_8_baja_ford_race_truck+trail_act ion.jpg

Way better platform than the raptor for the genre you are talking about:
http://image.automotive.com/f/features/9748758+pheader/0804or_07_z+boneyard_2007_chevy_long_travel_suspen sion+exterior_side_view.gif



Fair enough. I wonder what the real vs. projected sales are?

Not even a theoretical response to that one? :) :judge: As far at the vette being practical, well um, have you even heard of a Motorgen cruise? Piston aside, I could go drive my vette right now down the canyon and enjoy it. Chuck can tow my boat and do some four wheeling in the housing development tracts when it rains (don't ask how I got that idea). What can the raptor do right now? Drive 4 hours out to Glamis and cruise around quickly? Not as quickly as a 2 wheel drive truck bought for the same purpose.

[enkeivette]

I've given this issue a lot of thought. Before I bought the Jeep I was trying to decide whether I should pick up an AWD one or a 2 wheel drive one (which would have had less miles). With the two wheel drive one, I could build some extended arms, an engine cage and get some coilovers for it and be able to race it offroad. But I thought about it, thinking realistically, how often am I going to be able to jump it? Not very. And Glamis is no longer a regular thing for me. But offroading and towing a boat up a wet ramp would be. So the decision was clear AWD. So now that were looking at an AWD work truck, well maybe the Raptor is better than my Jeep (probably not because I doubt it has 4 low and a LSD front and center diff also), but Chucks diesel is certainly, without question better.

Additionally, if we're talking about 4 wheeling, the Jeep Wrangler is a better platform than the Raptor. So I ask again: Of what use is the Raptor? In what practical field is it the best? Or is it a sideways hat bro truck for Glamis cruising?

[enkeivette]

I want to emphasize one more time, the Raptor is a bad ass truck, and I would be proud to own one. But it is top of nothing, and it CERTAINLY has worthy competition from GM and Chrysler in all genres.

Ford is great at building awesome dual purpose cruiser vehicles. Look at the Mustang, a better race car than the Vette? Obviously not. But the Vette can't hold your whole family. Is the Raptor better than the Wrangler for four wheeling? No, but it's better for jumping. Is the Raptor better than a 2wd F150 with a factory lift for jumping? No, but it won't get stuck! It may be the best all around, but it doesn't take the cake anywhere.

What Ford should really do is build a lighter 2wd Raptor for the Baja crowd. I would give it the edge in that genre for a factory vehicle.

[Vettezuki]

It's painful to say this. But you're basically right. :(

[enkeivette]

It's painful to say this. But you're basically right. :(

What the fuck? :boggled: Am I still sleeping?

[Vettezuki]

What the fuck? :boggled: Am I still sleeping?


I was gonna get picky on several details but it would have been more arguing semantics and nuance rather than fundamentals and I'm just not in the mood; so you get off easy . . . this time.

[94cobra69ss396]

Adam's not right. If you think a stock 2wd F150 with it's 6 inches of suspension travel can come any where near a Raptor with it's 11.2 inches of front suspension travel and 13.4 inches of rear suspension travel you're crazy. The truck was specifically designed for running across the desert fast. Ford spent a lot of time working with companies like Fox Racing Shox to develop and tune the suspension to handle woops and jumps. There is not another factory truck on the market that can touch it in the area it was designed for.

You keep comparing it to a Wrangler but they are designed for different things. Have you ever gone out to the desert to prerun? Try taking a Wrangler out to Lucerne to prerun. They handle like crap over woops because of the limited suspension travel and short wheelbase. They're close in wheelbase to my brothers FJ and my Explorer leaves his FJ in the dust over the woops with only 10 inches of front travel and 11.5 rear travel and crappy shocks that fade after about 10-15 minutes. A stock Raptor would leave me in the dust.

Now even though it's designed for running fast over woops it's still a capable 4x4. It has 4.10 gears, electronic rear locker and a 2.64:1 low range along with the already mentioned suspension travel. It won't do as well in the rocks or tight trails as a Wrangler will but it will do fine on most of the trails that you would run a stock Wrangler through hear in So Cal.

Oh, and it also has a tow rating of 6000lbs and a tow mode for the transmission. Granted, that's not much but it's better than your Neon and enough to tow your boat.

I'd be more than happy if my Explorer would wheel like it does now and handle like a Raptor through the woops and jumps.

[Vettezuki]

Adam's not right. If you think a stock 2wd F150 with it's 6 inches of suspension travel can come any where near a Raptor with it's 11.2 inches of front suspension travel and 13.4 inches of rear suspension travel you're crazy. . .

I don't think he ever said stock to stock. He said platform and concept, and design consistency to that concept. The Raptor is a mix of ideas in this regards on this I think he's basically right. Nor did he ever say it was a POS. But if a desert racer, tower, or wheeler is what you're after, $50k and a different starting point is a better choice. If what want a factory blend of the things a Raptor offers, there's nothing like it; that's clear. I've seen a grand total of one on the road, so I wonder if they missed the mark with demographic targeting. :huh:

[94cobra69ss396]

Is the Raptor better than the Wrangler for four wheeling? No, but it's better for jumping. Is the Raptor better than a 2wd F150 with a factory lift for jumping? No, but it won't get stuck!

Yes he did. I think you guys are missing the point. It's like someone saying why would you spend $150,000 on a Ferrari when you can make a Vette do the same thing for less money. Maybe they don't want to take the time it takes to design and build a prerunner. Take that picture of the truck Adam posted. Do you really think that truck has less than $50,000 in it?

Also, I've seen probably 10-15 of them running around so I think Ford hit their mark.

[Vettezuki]

Yes he did. I think you guys are missing the point. It's like someone saying why would you spend $150,000 on a Ferrari when you can make a Vette do the same thing for less money.

Also, I've seen probably 10-15 of them running around so I think Ford hit their mark.

Fair enough. Ron, Adam, have at it. :)

[enkeivette]

I said factory lift option, much more than 6" of travel, and I also said platform to platform. You can buy a factory lifted F150 with a warranty that will out jump a Raptor. Adam is right.

[Vettezuki]

Also, according to this source, sales are just peachy (http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/01/ford-f-150-svt-raptor-sales-take-off-in-first-year.html).

[enkeivette]

You didn't read my post carefully enough. I said that Wranglers are better for 4 wheeling (rock crawling) but Raptors are better for jumping (and woops)!

[Shaolin Crane]

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2008/163_news081125_race_prepped_2010_ford_f150_raptor_ r_finishes_baja_1000_takes_third_in_class/index.html
Doesnt take the cake for anything?
3rd in the pro offroad truck class, off the lot save for required class modifications like lights, window nets, spare tire etc, no touches to the suspension or drivetrain, pretty fuckin impressive to me

[Vettezuki]

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2008/163_news081125_race_prepped_2010_ford_f150_raptor_ r_finishes_baja_1000_takes_third_in_class/index.html
Doesnt take the cake for anything?
3rd in the pro offroad truck class, off the lot save for required class modifications like lights, window nets, spare tire etc, no touches to the suspension or drivetrain, pretty fuckin impressive to me

Yeah, that's impressive. Ok, I've changed my mind, let's pile on eneki! :lmfao:

[Chuck]

25k for a brand new not loaded silverado or f150 25k in suspension and supercharger = better truck any day. Okay off the lot 50k it is a great truck and Tanner drove the shit out of it and it was pretty bad ass also that was the Hennessey version (Velociraptor). I will give it credit for off road off the lot but dollar for dollar it is not the best option.

[94cobra69ss396]

I said factory lift option, much more than 6" of travel, and I also said platform to platform. You can buy a factory lifted F150 with a warranty that will out jump a Raptor. Adam is right.

There is no such thing as a factory lift kit. Sure, there are dealer installed lift kits but those consist of drop brackets for the front and lift blocks for the rear. Go ahead and buy a new Silverado here's one http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=n&car_id=287450630&dealer_id=563901&car_year=2011&doors=&systime=&model=CHEVC25&search_lang=en&start_year=2010&body_style=TRUCKS&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&scarid=289738557&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=new&distance=100&min_price=&drive=&rdm=1294806543308&marketZipError=false&advanced=&fuel=&keywords_display=&lastBeginningStartYear=2008&end_year=2012&showZipError=y&make2=&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=32&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=&address=92336&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=&awsp=false&make=CHEV&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=9&standard=false. Oh wait, that's $51,514 and you haven't even had the dealer add the lift kit. Well, then you'll need new rims and tires to go with it because those stock ones will just look silly. Now you've spent $60,000 just to have a lifted truck with the same 6 inches of travel. Why do you think I did a solid axle swap on the Explorer. I didn't just want the truck higher, I wanted more suspension travel.

You didn't read my post carefully enough. I said that Wranglers are better for 4 wheeling (rock crawling) but Raptors are better for jumping (and woops)!

Who says 4 wheeling has to be in the rocks. I'd say 75% of the wheeling I do isn't rock crawling. Go back and watch the video of the Motorgen offroad run and let me know how much time we spent rock crawling. Maybe I just don't really go 4 wheeling. A Raptor would be a great truck for that 75% of the time.

[Chuck]

I am thinking something like this (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=n&car_id=292300899&dealer_id=1237038&car_year=2011&model=CHEV150&pager.offset=450&search_lang=en&start_year=2010&body_style=TRUCKS&scarid=292116502&search_type=new&distance=100&rdm=1294808293120&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&lastBeginningStartYear=2008&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&body_code=32&first_record=451&default_sort=newonlysortbyprice_DESC&address=92336&sort_type=priceDESC&awsp=false&make=CHEV&num_records=25&seller_type=b&cardist=73&standard=false) with the difference in upgrades.

[94cobra69ss396]

I am thinking something like this (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=n&car_id=292300899&dealer_id=1237038&car_year=2011&model=CHEV150&pager.offset=450&search_lang=en&start_year=2010&body_style=TRUCKS&scarid=292116502&search_type=new&distance=100&rdm=1294808293120&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&lastBeginningStartYear=2008&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&body_code=32&first_record=451&default_sort=newonlysortbyprice_DESC&address=92336&sort_type=priceDESC&awsp=false&make=CHEV&num_records=25&seller_type=b&cardist=73&standard=false) with the difference in upgrades.

Now go ahead and find a suspension system for it that you think can compete with the Raptor's in the desert. Then go ahead and try to get the power the Raptor has out of that 6 cylinder.

[Chuck]

I'd buy this Long Travel Kit (http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Camburg-99-06-Chevy-Silverado-2wd-Long-Travel-Kit-p-21246.html) and this truck (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=287699238&dealer_id=9018392&car_year=2006&model=CHEV150&pager.offset=250&search_lang=en&start_year=2005&body_style=TRUCKS&search_type=both&distance=100&rdm=1294809504905&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=586852&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2006&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&body_code=32&first_record=251&default_sort=newonlysortbyprice_DESC&address=92336&sort_type=priceDESC&awsp=false&make=CHEV&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=35&standard=false) and 7k on a supercharger, rebuild motor and trans and still have 25k in my pocket for body paint cage wheels etc.

[Chuck]

or this truck (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=292720069&dealer_id=64507845&car_year=2006&model=CHEV150&pager.offset=250&search_lang=en&start_year=2005&body_style=TRUCKS&search_type=both&distance=100&rdm=1294809504905&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=586852&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2006&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&body_code=32&first_record=251&ct=u&default_sort=newonlysortbyprice_DESC&address=92336&sort_type=priceDESC&awsp=false&make=CHEV&num_records=25&seller_type=b&cardist=10&standard=false) I think would be better to tear apart.

[Shaolin Crane]

Would you really put a supercharger up against the raptor for reliability in desert heat conditions? Not likely.

[Chuck]

Okay no SC, crate LS7 Done.

[Shaolin Crane]

Whats a crate LS7, transmission, wiring assembly, rear end, swap parts going to cost?

[Vettezuki]

Whats a crate LS7, transmission, wiring assembly, rear end, swap parts going to cost?

Easy $20k I'd guess.

You could do a home brew H&C LS3 for easily that much power (more really) for a hell of a lot less money though.

[Vettezuki]

FTR, except just for fun, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense comparing stock to non-stock. You just end up with an endless stream of "but then you could spend X for YZ." It's a game we've all played (and play) but at that point we're sort of dancing in circles.

[Leedom]

Wow. I did not see this thread blowing up like this. When I started this thread evidential I should have put more perimeters on the statement.

I was not saying that you could not buy a piece of shit truck and drop $30K into it and spank a Raptor. I was referring to the fact that someone drove a STOCK truck off a lot and dropped the safety equipment in it that was required and basically racing it in a competition and can hang in there. Name a truck right now from the mainstream auto manufacturers that can do this.

I want to emphasize one more time, the Raptor is a bad ass truck, and I would be proud to own one. But it is top of nothing, and it CERTAINLY has worthy competition from GM and Chrysler in all genres.


I am not saying break down every singular aspect of this truck and say well this can do this one thing better. That is a bullshit argument for what I posted and what the article was about. You are ignoring that.

I know I could go buy a Duramax and out tow that thing. No shit. That is what the Diesel it made for. Yes Chuck could take his Truck out to Glamis and have fun, hell I could take my truck out there too but that does not say it compares to the Raptor's off-road abilities.

I said factory lift option, much more than 6" of travel, and I also said platform to platform. You can buy a factory lifted F150 with a warranty that will out jump a Raptor. Adam is right.

No it won't. Try that "Lift kit" and see how long it would last and how your body would feel after a day in the jumps compared to the raptor. I will supply the ice packs for you.

The thought that nobody would drive that thing out in the desert because it is a 4WD is ridiculous. Can you get more travel out of a 2WD? Yes, but come on... find a stock truck that pulls more travel.

The Raptor is a truck that can be driven daily on the street and be comfortable to do so. At the same time is can handle the monthly trips for Joe Smith to home depot like a normal truck. It can town the quads, dirt bikes, sand rails out to Glamis just like other trucks. The big difference is that this truck will beat the living crap out of any other truck in the desert stock for stock. This truck was not built to be a trail rig, though I am sure it is more than capable for that type of fun as well. It was built to blast out in the desert and I have not seen an article that says it can not do that and do that is can not do it better than any other stock truck out there.

There is no truck out there on the market now that is stock (ie: without a aftermarket lift kit) that even comes close the this trucks abilities as a whole.

[Leedom]

FTR, except just for fun, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense comparing stock to non-stock. You just end up with an endless stream of "but then you could spend X for YZ." It's a game we've all played (and play) but at that point we're sort of dancing in circles.

This is a great point. If memory serves me correctly, and it hardly ever does, Adam called me out when I said I would take the new mustang over the M3 and just invest that money I saved buying the Stang to make it faster than the M3 stating that was not a fair comparison.

[Leedom]

I'd buy this Long Travel Kit (http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Camburg-99-06-Chevy-Silverado-2wd-Long-Travel-Kit-p-21246.html) and this truck (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=287699238&dealer_id=9018392&car_year=2006&model=CHEV150&pager.offset=250&search_lang=en&start_year=2005&body_style=TRUCKS&search_type=both&distance=100&rdm=1294809504905&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=586852&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2006&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&body_code=32&first_record=251&default_sort=newonlysortbyprice_DESC&address=92336&sort_type=priceDESC&awsp=false&make=CHEV&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=35&standard=false) and 7k on a supercharger, rebuild motor and trans and still have 25k in my pocket for body paint cage wheels etc.

Chuck, you buy a comparably equipped NEW Silverado and slap your Long Travel kit on it, good luck finding one and if you have one specially made your will probably be spending about $8-10K doing so, then add your new rims and tires, fiberglass fenders and engine power adders (to com up to the 411hp and 435lb the Raptor 6.2 has) and let me know what your final tally would be. Oh and then tell me how long you think your truck would last before you have to take it to the dealer for repairs on all that stuff that they do not cover.

[Shaolin Crane]

Also have to factor in that WE as gear heads could perform this work, but 80% of the people that will buy this truck new off the lot dont have the space, time, tools and know how to swap an LS7 crate engine into a older silverado/f150, figure what a shop would charge for all the hours of work we have put into our vehicles, you say you can build the same truck for 40K and have 10k to play with, well thats the small percentage of us, but take into acount that not everyone has loads of room and CASH to do the work the labor would easily outweigh the cost of a brand new raptor, oh and BTW colley had one on the lot with a 30k sticker on it...

Oh and for just as easily you can build a d-max you can build a powerstroke with a stronger transmission, better suspension, and more power for less :D

[enkeivette]

Ug, too much to read.

Leedom, you make some good points. And maybe my argument wasn't as directed at your statement as it should have been. It just sets me off when Ford guys talk shit on GM and vice versa. And maybe that's not what you intended to do, but that's the impression I got.

Every car manufacturer makes something good. Even Honda makes the CBR. So to claim Mustangs are crap and Camaros are where it's at, etc. sets me off.


Ron, get real. You know what every single Ford dealer has done to every single truck ever sold? A dealer is capable of installing any aftermarket lift they choose to. The lifted F150 that I saw in SD, at a dealer, that cued me in that dealers could do such a thing, had red powder coated springs. So drop brackets alone? Not the one I saw.


I stand by what I said, which was I guess the only point Leedom was trying to make. Raptor is cool all around, but it is top of nothing. Maybe top of... the dual purpose truck category???

[enkeivette]

Hahahahaha, did anyone actually read that article?! They're not using the stock suspension! And part of the suspension broke anyways!!! So... what's so great about this? I can drive my Jeep through a pro race and break shit too.

“...but we’re running a stock car... with a spring and damper kit”

"The shock mount broke due to the oversized struts that the Ford Raptor team are using, and Darren says the team has reinforced those now to cope with the extra load."

[enkeivette]

So it looks like we should allow Chuck to throw suspension money into his truck to keep up. Because... that's what Ford did in this race.

[Chuck]

Don't get me wrong the truck stock is fucking badass. All I was saying is for me I would go a different way. I go off-road a lot.

[Chuck]

I am taking donations so we can settle this once and for all. Pm me hahaha!

[Chuck]

I am maybe 19k into my truck now with truck purchase, tranny build, and programming.

[Shaolin Crane]

So it looks like we should allow Chuck to throw suspension money into his truck to keep up. Because... that's what Ford did in this race.

Did you read it? that was 2009, a year before the trucks release, when it was still in the test phase, and couldnt have been too bad a break cause they still came in 3rd

[94cobra69ss396]

Ron, get real. You know what every single Ford dealer has done to every single truck ever sold? A dealer is capable of installing any aftermarket lift they choose to. The lifted F150 that I saw in SD, at a dealer, that cued me in that dealers could do such a thing, had red powder coated springs. So drop brackets alone? Not the one I saw.

Have you forgotten that my brother has worked the service departments at Chevy dealers for the past 15 or so years? His guys were the ones installing the kits. You go ahead and find a dealer installed mid travel kit like Chuck posted that was $4,000. That was Poly's price. What do you think the dealer markup would be on it? Plus the fact that it's only for the front and requires cutting and welding to install. Then you have to do something for the rear. Dealers don't want to take that on. They use simple bolton kits that are quick to install and that they can mark up.

I am maybe 19k into my truck now with truck purchase, tranny build, and programming.

How much was your truck new from a dealer? I'm sure you bought it used and not new if you only have 19k into it. But let's take your 19k into your truck and compare it to my Explorer. I have about 12k into it including the original purchase price. So let's have a series of tests. First we'll run the Silverwood trail up to Deep Creek and through John Bull. Phil and I did it a few weeks ago in the snow and it was a blast. It's a combination of trail runs and some rock crawling. Then we can do some prerunning out in Lucerne. We can set up a course that covers say 10-15 miles and we can see who completes it quicker.

[Chuck]

Your exploder would kill my truck in any kind of trail or anything other than towing. That's not what I was saying at all. Just a joke because Adam said he would do my suspension.

[94cobra69ss396]

Your exploder would kill my truck in any kind of trail or anything other than towing. That's not what I was saying at all. Just a joke because Adam said he would do my suspension.

What, you don't think my 160hp V6 can out tow your Duramax? :lmfao:

I was just trying to make the point that yes, you can build a truck that will work better than a Raptor but you can't buy a new truck from a dealer that can. It's in a league all it's own.

[Chuck]

I was just trying to make the point that yes, you can build a truck that will work better than a Raptor but you can't buy a new truck from a dealer that can. It's in a league all it's own.

Agree!

[enkeivette]

So... it wasn't really even a Raptor then? It was a prototype with upgraded suspension? How is that better?

Still disagree, 4wd comes down on the front hard. I'd rather take the jumps in a 2wd F150 knowing that if I hit enough air, I'm not going to come down on the front and endo. You don't jump a FRONT engine 4wd truck.

[Shaolin Crane]

So... it wasn't really even a Raptor then? It was a prototype with upgraded suspension? How is that better?

Still disagree, 4wd comes down on the front hard. I'd rather take the jumps in a 2wd F150 knowing that if I hit enough air, I'm not going to come down on the front and endo. You don't jump a FRONT engine 4wd truck.

It was a raptor, a prototype truck with then still prototype suspension. Ford tested that truck as hard as they could before its release, saying the truck is garbage cause it broke while having experimental suspension is hardly fair. It coudnt have been too bad if they still came in third. And im sure ford has fixed the issue so that whatever broke wont on the production models. So again i say, impressive.

[Leedom]

Hahahahaha, did anyone actually read that article?! They're not using the stock suspension! And part of the suspension broke anyways!!! So... what's so great about this? I can drive my Jeep through a pro race and break shit too.

“...but we’re running a stock car... with a spring and damper kit”

"The shock mount broke due to the oversized struts that the Ford Raptor team are using, and Darren says the team has reinforced those now to cope with the extra load."

Fine, then you can throw and new shocks and coils on any other stock truck and it still would not touch the Raptor because you would really not get and more travel out of it since you are still using the stock A arms. Breaking shit is part of racing. Trophy trucks break too but I would not compare it to your Jeep.

I did not start this thread to say any other manufacturer sucks. That is not my style. I started it to say that no other manufacturer has a truck that comes even close to what this truck can do off-road.


The article I posted was from 2010/2011 so I do not see how it is a prototype.

[enkeivette]

I didn't say it was a prototype, that was Shaolin Crane. I was just saying it's not stock because it does have aftermarket suspension apparently.

So... now we're talking about the suspension geometry? That didn't seem to be a fair argument when Chuck wanted to add suspension to his truck to compare. ...I think we're rapping up here.

[Shaolin Crane]

I didn't say it was a prototype, that was Shaolin Crane. I was just saying it's not stock because it does have aftermarket suspension apparently.

So... now we're talking about the suspension geometry? That didn't seem to be a fair argument when Chuck wanted to add suspension to his truck to compare. ...I think we're rapping up here.

How could it be aftermarket if the truck was still in the design phase? It may have been an aftermarket product then to test for failures, or to improve the factory design, never less its standard now, its not aftermarket suspension if it comes standard
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/28951769+w750+st0/2011-ford-f-150-SVT-raptor-suspension.jpg
http://www.trucktrend.com/multimedia/photogallery/163_2011_ford_f_150_svt_raptor_photo_gallery/photo_01.html

[Vettezuki]

I'm all for bloodsport, but the conclusions seem to be:

1 - Raptor kicks ass in several categories stock
2 - Raptor apparently at least meeting sales expectations (market demands)
2 - Nothing like it from any competitor
3 - You could outdo any one performance category, e.g., desert racer, by starting with another platform and spending roughly equivalent money

I think we'd all agree with all these points. Where we disagree is the "why would you by that when. . . ." That's a fun conversation, but completely pointless. You cannot make interpersonal comparisons of utility . . cuz were different persons. Well, you can, there's just no basis for resolving them, hence the round and round.

With that. Please continue.

[enkeivette]

How could it be aftermarket if the truck was still in the design phase? It may have been an aftermarket product then to test for failures, or to improve the factory design, never less its standard now, its not aftermarket suspension if it comes standard
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/28951769+w750+st0/2011-ford-f-150-SVT-raptor-suspension.jpg
http://www.trucktrend.com/multimedia/photogallery/163_2011_ford_f_150_svt_raptor_photo_gallery/photo_01.html

That suspension actually does look really sweet. What you're saying seems to be just a justification of what you wish to be true without evidence to point to.

The fact remains, the article said a Raptor with a spring and damper kit and a roll cage. Obviously a roll cage is not standard, so it's an appropriate inference that the purpose of that sentence was to list things not standard on the truck.

If you disagree, quote something to counter it like I did.

[enkeivette]

Nice conclusion Ben. You forgot to add how... you suck! :P

[Shaolin Crane]

That suspension actually does look really sweet. What you're saying seems to be just a justification of what you wish to be true without evidence to point to.

The fact remains, the article said a Raptor with a spring and damper kit and a roll cage. Obviously a roll cage is not standard, so it's an appropriate inference that the purpose of that sentence was to list things not standard on the truck.

If you disagree, quote something to counter it like I did.

The truck didnt fall into the factory stock class, because well, it wasnt a factory truck, yet. So they were moved into the next class up, one that requires windows nets, a roll cage, lights, fixed back seats and a full sized spare.

Additional changes to the truck like horsepower, suspension, rims, transmission, rear end etc were not "touched" per say, but since the truck wasnt in production yet i guess it could be argued that the whole truck was aftermarket, or custom. However they used the race as a benchmark for flaws and the areas of concern were addressed and improved, then released. It wasnt anything stock then, but it is now.

Its not uncommon for different terrains to changed out springs/dampeners, just like I will make some spring changes depending on the course conditions, the baja 1000 may have been something they didnt plan the run the projected springs rates in so they were changed, but do you think anyone will buy the truck to try and compete in the baja 1000, I dont.

[Vettezuki]

Nice conclusion Ben. You forgot to add how... you suck! :P

That goes without saying. Duh.

[enkeivette]

Why did they specifically mention that they added suspension and a rollcage if everything else was also to be used in production? Why did they single out the suspension? I'll tell you... they upgraded it.

For different terrain? Ok fine, but then it's still not a stock Raptor is it? You can't drive off any Ford lot with the truck they put in that race can you?

You haven't quoted anything to discredit what I found about them upgrading the suspension. And claiming that it was a prototype is even worse. In that case it is even further from being a stock Raptor.

[Shaolin Crane]

Why did they specifically mention that they added suspension and a rollcage if everything else was also to be used in production? Why did they single out the suspension? I'll tell you... they upgraded it.

For different terrain? Ok fine, but then it's still not a stock Raptor is it? You can't drive off any Ford lot with the truck they put in that race can you?

You haven't quoted anything to discredit what I found about them upgrading the suspension. And claiming that it was a prototype is even worse. In that case it is even further from being a stock Raptor.

Not upgraded at all, just another version of a stock raptor, a raptor R, then still a test vehicle, and something you can still order "stock"
http://www.prerunnermaniac.com/Prerunners/Prerunner-Features/Raptor-R-will-take-on-Baja-1000.php
Here is what Ford Reports:

“Prepared for racing in long-distance off-road endurance events, the Ford F-150 SVT Raptor R uses stock components of the F-150 SVT Raptor, including the transmission, brakes and axles. The frame – the part of the truck that will take the most stress – is the same proven fully boxed frame that delivers class-leading towing and hauling in the base F-150. The race truck is powered by a specially calibrated 500 horsepower, 6.2-liter V8 engine. Placing the Ford F-150 SVT Raptor R in the Baja 1000 also serves as a test bed for development of the production F-150 SVT Raptor.

Ford is bringing some of the best stock class off-road truck drivers together to drive the F-150 SVT Raptor R in the Baja 1000. The team includes driver of record Steve Oligos and co-drivers Randy Merritt, Greg Foutz and Bud Brutsman who will compete in class eight for moderately modified full-size pickup trucks.”

Happy?
So the raptor is king in two categories, just have to specify what you want.

[94cobra69ss396]

They are also testing the new Ecoboost V6 in the Baja 1000 in what looks like a Raptor. It's in the February 2011 issue of 4Wheel & Off-Road. The engine was selected randomly off the Cleveland Engine Plant line.

Ford is putting their products to the test and it shows.

[enkeivette]

Yes, still happy. First of all, the Raptor R is not actually in production is it? There are rumors of a C7 Corvette, you don't see me bragging about how it kills all other street cars.

Secondly, whether it was a Raptor R or a Raptor, the original article still states that they added a spring and damper kit, and a rollcage! So whatever they started with... they upgraded it! If those upgrades led to a prototype which may eventually become a vehicle you find on a dealership lot, then we can post about how great that truck is when that happens.

Finally, to recap. It's still 4wd. It still has heavy axles, a transfer case, and a front diff that a trophy truck should not. You can jump that thing if you want, but I'd rather not endo a brand new truck.

[enkeivette]

http://www.fordraptor.net/index_files/image6411.gif

Netted windows and a rollcage holding fog lights sticking out where the front windshield should be. Ya, I see that going into production. :rolleyes: That is quite a badass vehicle in the picture there, too bad you can't buy one like that!

[enkeivette]

PS, everything I read about the Raptor R says it "features modified components." You're really not helping the cause Shaolin.

[Shaolin Crane]

You keep ignoring the points I have already made.
Secondly, whether it was a Raptor R or a Raptor, the original article still states that they added a spring and damper kit, and a rollcage! So whatever they started with... they upgraded it! If those upgrades led to a prototype which may eventually become a vehicle you find on a dealership lot, then we can post about how great that truck is when that happens.
You're missing the part where they did lead to the production part, hence the suspension I showed you. That spring and dampener kit that was added was pre-production, that is now on production trucks, so minus the roll cage I'm not seeing your point.

[Chuck]

Its a raptor.

[enkeivette]

You're missing the part where they did lead to the production part, hence the suspension I showed you. That spring and dampener kit that was added was pre-production, that is now on production trucks, so minus the roll cage I'm not seeing your point.

Prove it.