the Buick Breakdown

[bgn8711]

Hey you guys this weekend is round 1 of the ripping apart of the Buick and thought I would let you guys know what the plans are....

new bearings
oil pan gasket
oil pump
rear main seal
head gaskets
timing chain set
head bolts
2800 stall speed torque converter
driver's side motor mount

This is assuming everything looks good when we rip it apart if the cam or cylinder walls look suspy the plan could get revamped considerably...am hoping it doesn't come to that though. Should take 2 weekends one apart and one back together is the plan as of now. I'll let you guys know how it comes along but should be a very busy 2 weekends but I think I'm going to learn an invaluable amount of information working alongside Neal. Hopefully I'll have it all back together to hit the track and lay down some decent #'s.

[Vettezuki]

Good luck. Take pictures. I would HIGHLY recommend new rings if you're going to have it this far apart and push ever higher boost. To leave in the old stock rings seems like asking for trouble to me. :huh:

[enkeivette]

Good luck. Take pictures. I would HIGHLY recommend new rings if you're going to have it this far apart and push ever higher boost. To leave in the old stock rings seems like asking for trouble to me. :huh:

I'm with Ben, new rings for sure.

And run a thicker head gasket to drop your compression down so you can X that alcohol system and run as much boost as you want! You should be able to drop it a full point with just a thicker head gasket. 91 is all your car should need. Run a Cometic head gasket! If you don't I'm going to laugh at you when you blow another one.

[Vettezuki]

I'm with Ben, new rings for sure.

And run a thicker head gasket to drop your compression down so you can X that alcohol system and run as much boost as you want! You should be able to drop it a full point with just a thicker head gasket. 91 is all your car should need. Run a Cometic head gasket! If you don't I'm going to laugh at you when you blow another one.

You think a gasket will drop a full point of compression? Anywho, I think Brian wants to run meth, which will let him boost into oblivion.

[enkeivette]

You think a gasket will drop a full point of compression? Anywho, I think Brian wants to run meth, which will let him boost into oblivion.

I know it can, when I spoke with a Cometic tech over the phone they recommended one that would for my engine.

[bgn8711]

Neal posed the piston rings idea to me like this...if it needs rings its cuz the cylinder walls are fucked...if they are than we might as well re-build the whole motor. He says upon inspection he should know if they are good or not and if they are it should be fine. He's never had a ring problem..Morgan's car has 210k with no problems.... Neal knows his shite so I'm going with him on this one...

[enkeivette]

Neal posed the piston rings idea to me like this...if it needs rings its cuz the cylinder walls are fucked...if they are than we might as well re-build the whole motor. He says upon inspection he should know if they are good or not and if they are it should be fine. He's never had a ring problem..Morgan's car has 210k with no problems.... Neal knows his shite so I'm going with him on this one...

Was it Neal or Morgan that blew a head gasket last time I was at the track?

[gunfish]

Brian me bucko.............RINGS!

[bgn8711]

Was it Neal or Morgan that blew a head gasket last time I was at the track?

Neal was the one who broke but it wasn't a HG. The idiots at the machine shops f'ed up the valves and one was stuck open...still went 10.80 haha. I know the rings the rings but If I do that I may as well re do the whole damn thing and I need a car it's my DD.

[enkeivette]

Neal was the one who broke but it wasn't a HG. The idiots at the machine shops f'ed up the valves and one was stuck open...still went 10.80 haha. I know the rings the rings but If I do that I may as well re do the whole damn thing and I need a car it's my DD.

If you're doing all the bearings you are doing the whole damn thing. What head gasket are you using?!

[Vettezuki]

If you're doing all the bearings you are doing the whole damn thing. What head gasket are you using?!

I was going to say, at that point it isn't exactly a ton of extra work to fit new rings and hone the cylinders. But if that isn't "necessary" I guess why bother . .

[enkeivette]

I was going to say, at that point it isn't exactly a ton of extra work to fit new rings and hone the cylinders. But if that isn't "necessary" I guess why bother . .

If they're within acceptable tolerances, there's no need for machine work. But he should change the rings if he's going to change the bearings, I would expect the rings to wear faster than the bearings.

It seems silly to tear the engine down and not replace every ring, seal and bearing. You can do a full rebuild without doing any machine work. If it doesn't need it, it doesn't need it.

Brian, whether it be a thicker head gasket or low compression pistons I think you should get this thing ready for some serious boost. You may not be thinking about it in the near future, but you'll get there. You'll always want more, always, and you should build the motor with that in mind.

[TRacer]

All,

Neal & I helped Brian pull the motor yesterday and all reports from the subsequent teardown that took place today are that everything save for the passenger side HG looked great (mileage is over 125,000). The HG blew inward on Cylinder #4 and appeared to have had signs of scarring (please bear in mind that Brian is the 4th owner of this car, two of which we can account for.) The cross hatching on the cylinder walls looks good, the lifters are perfect,the cam is great...can't argue there.

Having driven Brian's car quite a bit, it was a very strong runner prior to the HG letting go. If this was a full-blown build-- and it isn't-- we would have pointed Brian in a direction that would have included such items as a stock stroke steel crank (I have two), steel rods, TRW or J&E forged pistons, bigger cam (probably a 218/218 so it would still pass smog), steel main caps, ported heads & intake, ARP head studs & fasteners everywhere, .020 or .030 overbore, and all that other fun stuff. However, that would have blown through a conscientious college student's budget in no time, and he has to eat & graduate. The HGs Brian will be using will be fine; they can take a lot of boost, and given Brian's ultimate goal (11.7s at 116 or so) he won't have to run a ton of boost to get there given the replacement turbo he has in mind. The 12" 2800 stall Pat's converter he's opted for is a great choice and is one that I'll be putting in my sleeper '87 Turbo Buick when it comes time to pull its tranny.

With regard to reducing compression, a stock turbo Buick V6 runs 8.0:1 compression; lowering it would result in the car not being able to spool a turbo very much at all even with a small A/R exhaust housing, plus it would be an Uber-Pig on the street. If anything, in a gonzo build it's not uncommon to use a stroker crank and up the CR to about 9.0:1 so that you don't have to run as much boost to go as fast.

Oh, and hi, I'm new to this site! :)

Cheers,
Morgan

[Vettezuki]

All,

Neal & I helped Brian pull the motor yesterday and all reports from the subsequent teardown that took place today are that everything save for the passenger side HG looked great . . .

Welcome aboard Captain Morgan. Bet you never heard that before. ;) Sounds like you guys are steering Brian in the right direction. enkeivette and I just love spending non-existent money; it's so gosh darn easy.

Oh and Brian,
:need_pics:

Well, it's not worthless, but would be betterer. :thumbs_up:

[SeanPlunk]

All,

Neal & I helped Brian pull the motor yesterday and all reports from the subsequent teardown that took place today are that everything save for the passenger side HG looked great (mileage is over 125,000). The HG blew inward on Cylinder #4 and appeared to have had signs of scarring (please bear in mind that Brian is the 4th owner of this car, two of which we can account for.) The cross hatching on the cylinder walls looks good, the lifters are perfect,the cam is great...can't argue there.

Having driven Brian's car quite a bit, it was a very strong runner prior to the HG letting go. If this was a full-blown build-- and it isn't-- we would have pointed Brian in a direction that would have included such items as a stock stroke steel crank (I have two), steel rods, TRW or J&E forged pistons, bigger cam (probably a 218/218 so it would still pass smog), steel main caps, ported heads & intake, ARP head studs & fasteners everywhere, .020 or .030 overbore, and all that other fun stuff. However, that would have blown through a conscientious college student's budget in no time, and he has to eat & graduate. The HGs Brian will be using will be fine; they can take a lot of boost, and given Brian's ultimate goal (11.7s at 116 or so) he won't have to run a ton of boost to get there given the replacement turbo he has in mind. The 12" 2800 stall Pat's converter he's opted for is a great choice and is one that I'll be putting in my sleeper '87 Turbo Buick when it comes time to pull its tranny.

With regard to reducing compression, a stock turbo Buick V6 runs 8.0:1 compression; lowering it would result in the car not being able to spool a turbo very much at all even with a small A/R exhaust housing, plus it would be an Uber-Pig on the street. If anything, in a gonzo build it's not uncommon to use a stroker crank and up the CR to about 9.0:1 so that you don't have to run as much boost to go as fast.

Oh, and hi, I'm new to this site! :)

Cheers,
Morgan

It sounds like everything is going fairly well. I think with the generous help you and Neal have provided, Brian's car is really going to be running pretty well here soon. How is your car? Brian told me you have the new turbo, injectors, etc. all on now. Any idea on what it'll run? Say hi to Tracer for me :)

[enkeivette]

With regard to reducing compression, a stock turbo Buick V6 runs 8.0:1 compression; lowering it would result in the car not being able to spool a turbo very much at all even with a small A/R exhaust housing, plus it would be an Uber-Pig on the street. If anything, in a gonzo build it's not uncommon to use a stroker crank and up the CR to about 9.0:1 so that you don't have to run as much boost to go as fast.

Wow, I had no idea it was already that low. Why does he need an alcohol injection system to keep up with the increased boost if the CR is so low? Is this car not intercooled?

[TRacer]

Vettezuki,

Brian has been taking pictures of this project's progress with his camera phone so I'll be sure to remind him to get 'em on here. We took a few on Saturday with the engine on the lift, a pic of the "Gee, what's wrong with this motor mount?" (that's a pretty good one) and I imagine he shot a few yesterday.

Yes, Brian's car is intercooled; in fact, all '86-'87 Turbo Regals are. At the time these vehicles were being built 92 to 94 octane non-oxygenated gas wasn't uncommon, but now we (especially in CA) have to contend with 91 octane oxygenated (read: "crap") gas which is a limiting factor. Also, the intercooler isn't very efficient by today's standards (the inlet is small, & the core isn't very thick) and the stock turbo runs out of steam at 22 psi. So, alcohol injection is a nice compromise in lieu of $8 per gallon race gas to add performance.

Although Brian put in 36 lb injectors recently, we've advised him that a set of 43 lb. injectors from a Ford Lightning will eventually be in his future to ensure that he has a "fuel cushion" to work with once he breaks the 12-second barrier. He already has a 255 lph in-tank pump in the car fed by 10 AWG wire so he is set on the tank end, a new in-line filter and AFPR, so once 43#ers are in that's all he'll need. As for a turbo, an old-school TA-49 will do the job, and a used stretch intercooler will suffice once we find one. By way of comparison, back in 1998 I ran this very same combination on my '87 GN that had over 140,000 on its unopened stock motor and tuned it into the 11.30s at 118+ with no issues. It is also the same combination I am running on my sleeper TR now, except that I was fortunate to find an even better (& bigger!) stock location stretch intercooler than the one I had on the GN.

Sean: Tracer is going to test for his Orange belt in Tae Kwon Do this week!

Cheers,
Morgan

PS: Here are a few quick pics of the sleeper TR:

[bgn8711]

Guys,

Thankfully I think Morgan addressed many of the issues already so I can keep this short :D. Things are going well Neal and I (and Morgan on saturday) are going very slow and I get explanations for any retard questions I have which is great. I have about 12 pics of my phone that I'll have to E-mail to myself and put up here eventually. We put the new timing chain and gears on and cleaned out the intercooler and about half the hardware so next weeekend will be all putting things back together. Anyway, that's kind of where we're at and I'll give you more updates as they come. Morgan are you going to be available this weekend at all?

Brian
P.S Joanna is going to turn my blown HG into a picture frame with pics of my car in it...thought that was a cool idea.

[Vettezuki]

Holy crap, why does it need that much of a fuel cushion? I think my stock injectors are 26lb on a 450BHP V8, and they're only running about 80% duty at WOT. Do TBs run a bit rich to help keep the charge temperature down or something:huh: Then again, LSx motors are pretty lean burning, my A/F is like 14:1.

BTW, I'm counting on you to keep Brian to no faster than 11.7; I'm targeting 11.5. :sm_laughing:

[TRacer]

Running a bigger injector won’t want tax the fuel pump as much, plus it will give Brian more room as 36’s are maxed out at 114-115 MPH. Trying to compare a N/A LSx V8 with 10.5:1 compression and two additional cylinders to a forced induction V6 isn’t an apples to apples comparison, as the compression ratios we are talking about at 1.0 bar to 2.0 bar boost on a Buick V6 are in the 18:1 range which is Dodge/Cummins turbo diesel territory. To support those kinds of cylinder pressures and airflow, you’ve got to have fuel, and enough of it. On my 10-second GN I ran a PT-70 turbo and 72 pound injectors using a modified stock ECM and stock MAF, and that car still passed the chassis-dyno smog test, and no, I do not mean the “$250 to a friend” kind (this was the car that I let Brian drive back when he had his learner’s permit.)

[SeanPlunk]

What day is Tracer doing his thing? Is it open to the public?

[Vettezuki]

I understand it's not quite apples to apples, I just always thought more in terms of potential fuel flow to "potential" power (i.e., energy -> power). In other words, the power I'd expect 40+lb injectors to support is perhaps rather higher than what I'd expect his engine to be actually making. I suppose this is where my NA perspective is screwing me up.

In Brian's near term case with the 42 pounders, new turbo etc., what kind of work (i.e., HP) is the engine doing and how much fuel does it consume to do it?

[enkeivette]

I understand it's not quite apples to apples, I just always thought more in terms of potential fuel flow to "potential" power (i.e., energy -> power). In other words, the power I'd expect 40+lb injectors to support is perhaps rather higher than what I'd expect his engine to be actually making. I suppose this is where my NA perspective is screwing me up.

In Brian's near term case with the 42 pounders, new turbo etc., what kind of work (i.e., HP) is the engine doing and how much fuel does it consume to do it?

I'm sure there are many complex reasons why Brians car uses bigger fuel injectors than your LS, higher cylinder pressure being one of them. Your engine at WOT is around 14.5:1 while his I'm guessing was tuned around 12:1. But I would attribute it mainly to his engine not being nearly as efficient as yours.

[bgn8711]

I'm sure there are many complex reasons why Brians car uses bigger fuel injectors than your LS, higher cylinder pressure being one of them. Your engine at WOT is around 14.5:1 while his I'm guessing was tuned around 12:1. But I would attribute it mainly to his engine not being nearly as efficient as yours.

depends what your definition of efficient is being able to make as much power with 119 less cubic inches doesn't seem all that inefficient but I know that's not what were talking about I just want to be a dick :D...not that I'm making quite what he is at this point in time. Anyway update the heads are on, front covers on, new rod and main bearings, motor mounts are on, oil pan gasket is on, rear main seal is in. water pump is on. trying to mount the motor saturday night and button it down sunday! Anyway, that's where I'm at I'll let you know more as it comes.


Brian

[gunfish]

Any knuckle busters yet? It doesn't count until you get some blood on it!

[Vettezuki]

depends what your definition of efficient is being able to make as much power with 119 less cubic inches doesn't seem all that inefficient but I know that's not what were talking about I just want to be a dick :D . . .

How about having to burn 15% more fuel (chemical energy) to make the same power? That seems less effecient. :huh: I enjoy being a dick too :D

[bgn8711]

I've got the normal wear and tear scratches and bruises, Neal railed his hand pretty good and took off a big hunk of skin on his hand, luckily he had a hello Kitty bandaid to stop the bleeding :D....no I'm not kidding. I need to go to autozone today speaking of which for what I hope will be the last round of parts needed. Idk about the track weekend after next I still need a tune on the thing and I am burnt out on the car thing at the moment got up at 6 on sunday to leave for SD got home after 9 and will most likely be doing that both days this upcoming weekend. It has been damn interesting and educational though so a worthy experience to loose sleep over and my car should run as well as it ever has.

B

[TRacer]

How about having to burn 15% more fuel (chemical energy) to make the same power? That seems less effecient. :huh: I enjoy being a dick too :D

Yep, but it was doggone efficient technology 20 years ago. What were the L98 V8 motors making then? 220-230 HP? With TPI? :)

[SexyLxy]

Bri,

I'm glad that you have learned alot so your car...but you better be runnin damn good by the time you "actually" get it to the track to shut your fellow egg-er-on-ers up.

Haha! :D

Sincerely,
Your lovely sister-in-law

PS - I can't wait to see what you are running next time. :) You have put a lot of hard work into that engine.

[Vettezuki]

Yep, but it was doggone efficient technology 20 years ago. What were the L98 V8 motors making then? 220-230 HP? With TPI? :)

No question there. An 87' L98 was 240HP/345TQ.

[bgn8711]

hey sister in law, it should run real hard but I don't forsee setting any land speed records with it as the rebuild has not been focused on performance parts. I just don't have the dough to build a bad ass bitchin motor that is going to go 11's or something like that as this has already had a large impact on the wallet just replacing parts. I should have a real solid 13 second car and more imporantly an excellent starting point to go much faster. Once I'm done paying off everything from this it will be new turbo time and than things should pick up considerably. I need to find work for the summer to keep me afloat so that is #2 goal after I finish my car and get it up and running. Wish me luck this weekend guys, Morgan I know life is hectic let me know if your interested in coming down either day..I'll call you too.

Brian

[CorruptCulture]

hey sister in law, it should run real hard but I don't forsee setting any land speed records with it as the rebuild has not been focused on performance parts. I just don't have the dough to build a bad ass bitchin motor that is going to go 11's or something like that as this has already had a large impact on the wallet just replacing parts. I should have a real solid 13 second car and more imporantly an excellent starting point to go much faster. Once I'm done paying off everything from this it will be new turbo time and than things should pick up considerably. I need to find work for the summer to keep me afloat so that is #2 goal after I finish my car and get it up and running. Wish me luck this weekend guys, Morgan I know life is hectic let me know if your interested in coming down either day..I'll call you too.

Brian

Effin' a, I need a summer job too. Let's find something together.

[bgn8711]

That'd be titties dude, could we do what Mike used to do during the summer the day camp thing??

[CorruptCulture]

I kinda think that those interviews have already started or are done. If not, I'm sure you could get a job there no problem. Between my mom as a reference and your experience with kids you'd be a shoe in... I'll find out.

And go fill out an NBA bracket...

[bgn8711]

...what a shitty weekend it has been. Well had the motor all ready to go back in went to switch the torque converter and...I'm fucked. output shaft of the transmission was almost completely worn..any further and the car won't go anywhere. It gets worse that input shaft goes pretty damn deep into the tranny so it doesn't make any sense to re-do that and not do the entire tranny. so $1,000 dollars later I will now have a freshened motor and trans...Pulled the trans saturday it is going to vegas next weekend should have it back together the weekend after that. No track for me next weekend...ugh atleast it is what I was planning on doing eventually anyway...

[Vettezuki]

...what a shitty weekend it has been. Well had the motor all ready to go back in went to switch the torque converter and...I'm fucked. output shaft of the transmission was almost completely worn..any further and the car won't go anywhere. It gets worse that input shaft goes pretty damn deep into the tranny so it doesn't make any sense to re-do that and not do the entire tranny. so $1,000 dollars later I will now have a freshened motor and trans...Pulled the trans saturday it is going to vegas next weekend should have it back together the weekend after that. No track for me next weekend...ugh atleast it is what I was planning on doing eventually anyway...

Did you check with Paul? He has 2 700R4s, one of which is practically brand new. Bet'cha he'd let one go for a good price.

[enkeivette]

Shift kit time. :D

[SexyLxy]

OMG, I thought the day would never come but the Buick was running and in our driveway tonight. Congrats Bri....What shall we name her now? A new baby has been born or did the old just get a face lift? Get some sleep dude. The project is over and done with.

[enkeivette]

That is until the computer gathers enough bad info from various sensors and starts throwing codes at you left and right. Ahahaha! Seriously though, if it throws a code, don't flip. It's normal to forget one vacuum line or not push in one electrical connector all the way.

Congrats on the rebuild! Can't wait to see the car run, still haven't seen it with the alc inj. :thumbs_up::beer:

[SeanPlunk]

I actually saw it running today - sounded good. He still has to tune, but it should be pretty awesome when done.

[bgn8711]

Thank you Alexis, Sean & Adam. No codes as of yet and I zip tied just about all the vacuum lines yesterday in the blistering hot sun. It drives great, afraid to really boost it up took it to 13 ish # very slowly since the scan tool I have updates rediculously slow. No knock and felt very solid, going to wait til I have a good scan tool in there to really see where it is at. I still have little bits and pieces to throw on it...really looking forward to see what it'll do all tuned up and ready to go. Thanks for the support from everyone..

Brian

[Vettezuki]

Thank you Alexis, Sean & Adam. No codes as of yet and I zip tied just about all the vacuum lines yesterday in the blistering hot sun. It drives great, afraid to really boost it up took it to 13 ish # very slowly since the scan tool I have updates rediculously slow. No knock and felt very solid, going to wait til I have a good scan tool in there to really see where it is at. I still have little bits and pieces to throw on it...really looking forward to see what it'll do all tuned up and ready to go. Thanks for the support from everyone..

Brian


Great. So Irwindale this Thursday?

[vonage6591]

Thank you Alexis, Sean & Adam. No codes as of yet and I zip tied just about all the vacuum lines yesterday in the blistering hot sun. It drives great, afraid to really boost it up took it to 13 ish # very slowly since the scan tool I have updates rediculously slow. No knock and felt very solid, going to wait til I have a good scan tool in there to really see where it is at. I still have little bits and pieces to throw on it...really looking forward to see what it'll do all tuned up and ready to go. Thanks for the support from everyone..

Brian

So after all that did you end up doing rings? I don't exactly know what you mean by a "freshened motor"?

[bgn8711]

no rings, everything looked fine on the cylinder walls so Neal has definitely put me at ease on that. We checked the specs on the crank and they are all within spec, and the cam is perfectly fine all the lifters look shiney and new. It has a new: rear main seal, cam bearings, main bearings, oil pump, oil pan gasket, head gaskets, head bolts, water pump, front cover gasket, intake gasket. That's aboout it. Also put in an improved 2800 torque converter and the transmission is rebuilt with shift kit modifications. So there it is, I am going to go lay down now as I am deathly ill and have been puking my brains out all night...fun. I want to go to irwindale but A I'm sick and B I can't get off work in June I am 100% down to do it if you come with me B. Again thank you for everything, B for letting me borrow your truck and everyone who's been supportive I can't wait to make a pass!

Brian

[SeanPlunk]

Brian finally got his alcohol working. It turns out one of the grounds wasn't grounded :bang: :suicide: :barf: :rolling: Now that it's fixed, Vettezuki says it pulls like a raped ape :judge:

[bgn8711]

"grounds wasn't connected"..."me fail english that umpossible". Haha, yeah it runs great except it knocks in 3rd. WTF? I'm going to pull timing and fuel and run more alocohol try n up the octane and see what that does. I gotta mess with the tune in 1st n 2nd too....Its going to be a long day.

Brian