Forced Induction vs. N/A

[SeanPlunk]

With the increasingly stringent CAFE standards, I think we're going to see an increase in smaller, forced induction engines.

Personally I like FI motors because it's so much easier to make extra power. I know the N/A guys love the more linear power delivery and better cooling characteristics of N/A engines though.

I think for a street car I prefer the smaller FI engines. After driving my grandfather's 335i on the cruise I remembered why I love that car so much. Fantastic power everywhere, little to no lag, and it gets 28-30mph on the freeway. Pretty damn impressive if you ask me :judge:

[jedhead]

I think the smaller forced induction engines will only be around for a short time, because even those will eat too much fuel to meet the future standards. We have a lot of people in our federal government who wants to do away with private ownership of any cars.

Bob

[SeanPlunk]

I think the smaller forced induction engines will only be around for a short time, because even those will eat too much fuel to meet the future standards. We have a lot of people in our federal government who wants to do away with private ownership of any cars.

Bob

How so?

[jedhead]

EPA declaring CO2 a green house gas for one. Which will eventually create problems with most any internal combustion engine using hydrocarbons.
I recall reading transcripts and seeing videos of people on the far left who would rather see all of the non ruling class be using public transportation and the end of anything using hydrocarbons for fuel.
CAFE standards will continue to be raised, now 35mpg by 2020.

Bob

[SeanPlunk]

EPA declaring CO2 a green house gas for one. Which will eventually create problems with most any internal combustion engine using hydrocarbons.
I recall reading transcripts and seeing videos of people on the far left who would rather see all of the non ruling class be using public transportation and the end of anything using hydrocarbons for fuel.
CAFE standards will continue to be raised, now 35mpg by 2020.

Bob

I don't think the end goal of CAFE is to get cars out of the hands of people though. I just think we'll see a shift to different kinds of cars. Probably a mix of electric, diesel, turbine, ICE, and hybrids.

[Vettezuki]

I don't think the end goal of CAFE is to get cars out of the hands of people though. I just think we'll see a shift to different kinds of cars. Probably a mix of electric, diesel, turbine, ICE, and hybrids.

Damnit Sean, why did you have to say something almost sensible.

Smaller FI engines are the fairly obvious interim. If we cracked petroleum like the Europeans, small turbo diesels would be obvious. Ethanol production is a total government boondoggle, so E85 will probably be around for a while longer. While it's economically dumb, the fuel has a number of advantages for FI. Longer term will be a mix of pure electrics and things like natural gas turbine powered hybrids. The longest term will be pure electrics without any onboard fuel or batteries. Yes, you heard me. There will be wireless power transmission via coupled oscilating magnetic fields. You'll just get a bill for actual energy consumption pulled straight off the grid to power production at the motors. No pesky middle man inefficiencies.

Bob,
Those people exist. I know. Trust me I know. :) But if they ever gain and use political power to that extent of collectivization that'll be the day for a new Declaration of Independence and a healthy dose of GFY. :kali:

[Shaolin Crane]

Damnit Sean, why did you have to say something almost sensible.

Smaller FI engines are the fairly obvious interim. If we cracked petroleum like the Europeans, small turbo diesels would be obvious. Ethanol production is a total government boondoggle, so E85 will probably be around for a while longer. While it's economically dumb, the fuel has a number of advantages for FI. Longer term will be a mix of pure electrics and things like natural gas turbine powered hybrids. The longest term will be pure electrics without any onboard fuel or batteries. Yes, you heard me. There will be wireless power transmission via coupled oscilating magnetic fields. You'll just get a bill for actual energy consumption pulled straight off the grid to power production at the motors. No pesky middle man inefficiencies.

Bob,
Those people exist. I know. Trust me I know. :) But if they ever gain and use political power to that extent of collectivization that'll be the day for a new Declaration of Independence and a healthy dose of GFY. :kali:
Insert 2nd/10th amendment rights here

[jedhead]

I still believe the goal is to put us who the ruling class deems unworthy into public transportation. CAFE is just one step in incrementalism tactic that is used by those who want to rule over us and truly believe that they know what is best for us.

Bob

[enkeivette]

Forced induction is better for everything except HG reliability. Linear power curve my ass.

[Vettezuki]

. . . Linear power curve my ass.

Looks pretty linear.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/515/BirdRunDyno1.jpg

[C5Natie]

Well Im at 12:1cr n/a but Ive ran with and beaten FI cars with up to 200+rwhp than me. So, idk...... Btw, new Ferraris are 12:1-3cr n/a as well. We might see more companies go with higher compressions and run their cars leaner to gain more mpg's. Thats what they do with the flex fuel cars. When filled with e85 they run scary lean but thats how they try to get better gas mileage to help you forget that you need 30% more fuel.

[SeanPlunk]

Well Im at 12:1cr n/a but Ive ran with and beaten FI cars with up to 200+rwhp than me. So, idk...... Btw, new Ferraris are 12:1-3cr n/a as well. We might see more companies go with higher compressions and run their cars leaner to gain more mpg's. Thats what they do with the flex fuel cars. When filled with e85 they run scary lean but thats how they try to get better gas mileage to help you forget that you need 30% more fuel.

That's interesting. If they have 200+rwhp more at similar weights they should walk you. Heat soak is a bitch though...

[enkeivette]

Looks pretty linear.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/515/BirdRunDyno1.jpg

Yes Ben, you have an amazing motor. I wasn't saying that sarcastically, as in, no NA motors don't make more linear power curves.

I was saying that sarcastically, as in, ya, maybe the power curves are more linear, but who really gives a shit? Who is sitting behind the wheel thinking... ah, what a nice linear pull this is. This is way more important to me than having another 40% more horsepower.


Be careful with your response Mr.Magnacharger.

[Vettezuki]

Yes Ben, you have an amazing motor. I wasn't saying that sarcastically, as in, no NA motors don't make more linear power curves.

I was saying that sarcastically, as in, ya, maybe the power curves are more linear, but who really gives a shit? Who is sitting behind the wheel thinking... ah, what a nice linear pull this is. This is way more important to me than having another 40% more horsepower.


Be careful with your response Mr.Magnacharger.

I think Sean's original post had more to do with given increasing requirements in fuel standards inevitably meaning more smaller FI engines and I think he's basically right. As for cost effective power, or shear raw power, obviously there's no comparison, FI all the way. I'm not opposed, at some point I'll definitely have an FI something. But a great NA motor is, well, something special. I for one do love the linear power band. So does Gordon Murray, which is why he hasn't used FI in his rather super super cars. Though to be fair, modern smallish turbo systems don't really have much lag and are pretty linear; in a sense, just an effective emulation of a larger displacement NA motor.

[jedhead]

It not just the FI, but combining FI with direct injection which is allowing high compression is spurring the development of these engines. The EcoBoost have 11 to 1 compression and the direct injection is cooling the pre combustion temps greatly preventing detonation.

Bob