Frame Fabrication

[enkeivette]

I've always always wanted to buy a Jeep or a Ranger/ Explorer and build it up.

Anyways, I'm not really thinking about buying a truck right now. I would need to sell my Neon or my boat before I could justify another project or even a place to put it.

But I've been reading a lot about suspension geometry and welding and fab. (Trying to think of a solution to my friends problem.) Anyways, here is my thought process, (not for my friend, but just curiosity/ semi-serious future interest/ project).


When you get crazy with the rear suspension, a lot of guys back half (I think it's called) the truck, cutting the rear frame rails off behind the cab. This is pretty common actually, I was checking out a Ranger like this at the Muffler Man shop.

And, I have seen a Ranger before that cut off the frame rails from the cab forward, because he needed to weld a set more inward for his longer control arms (because the motor was moved back and not in the way). So... would it really be that difficult to redo the frame with square tubing under the cab? And just fab it all yourself? With a full cage and tubing everywhere I think it would be pretty easy to make it damn strong.

Just curious what you guys think.

[Vettezuki]

I've always always wanted to buy a Jeep or a Ranger/ Explorer and build it up.

Anyways, I'm not really thinking about buying a truck right now. I would need to sell my Neon or my boat before I could justify another project or even a place to put it.

But I've been reading a lot about suspension geometry and welding and fab. (Trying to think of a solution to my friends problem.) Anyways, here is my thought process, (not for my friend, but just curiosity/ semi-serious future interest/ project).


When you get crazy with the rear suspension, a lot of guys back half (I think it's called) the truck, cutting the rear frame rails off behind the cab. This is pretty common actually, I was checking out a Ranger like this at the Muffler Man shop.

And, I have seen a Ranger before that cut off the frame rails from the cab forward, because he needed to weld a set more inward for his longer control arms (because the motor was moved back and not in the way). So... would it really be that difficult to redo the frame with square tubing under the cab? And just fab it all yourself? With a full cage and tubing everywhere I think it would be pretty easy to make it damn strong.

Just curious what you guys think.

Hard? Well, thats relative. It's certainly done and not all that uncommon. But you've got to be mega-anal about measuring and geometry. Screw something up a little bit and you'll never be able to get the alignment right etc. Also, structural welds on box tubing need to obviously be of a consistent high quality for pentration, or they'll crack. If you use something like chromoly instead of mild steal, you'll have additional issues like annealing. Guys who do this stuff professionally spend forever setting up their jigs to hold things in precise location so they can repeatedly fab things up.

[enkeivette]

Hard? Well, thats relative. It's certainly done and not all that uncommon. But you've got to be mega-anal about measuring and geometry. Screw something up a little bit and you'll never be able to get the alignment right etc. Also, structural welds on box tubing need to obviously be of a consistent high quality for pentration, or they'll crack. If you use something like chromoly instead of mild steal, you'll have additional issues like annealing. Guys who do this stuff professionally spend forever setting up their jigs to hold things in precise location so they can repeatedly fab things up.

I think if Dodge can do it, I can do it. :nuts: But yeah, that's a good point. Not good enough of a point to stop me from trying though, haha.

[enkeivette]

I think if Dodge can do it, I can do it. :nuts: But yeah, that's a good point. Not good enough of a point to stop me from trying though, haha.

If I'm able to buy a wrecked ranger for a few hundred bucks I'm going to do it. Why not? As long as the cab is intact.

[enkeivette]

I would much rather start with an explorer, but the shell makes the rear more complicated. Although, if I'm looking to save money, a truck that comes with an 8.8LSD and a V8 already is def the way to go.

[enkeivette]

I think the steering would be the most complicated. And I hate the explorer/ ranger spindles, they ruin my life.

Maybe this would be easier with a bow tie.

[Leedom]

Either a Ranger or Explorer are great platforms to start from. The explorer would not be that much harder to make the roll cage and such. The 4.0L in the Ranger is actually not a bad platform. I think it would be easier comparatively to build a ranger and you would get more travel out of it. If you want more than 2 or 3 seats then the Explorer is the way to go.

[Vettezuki]

If I'm able to buy a wrecked ranger for a few hundred bucks I'm going to do it. Why not? As long as the cab is intact.

Just don't slap dick your way through structural welding. Snapped frames leading to firey wrecks would not be all that fun to be in.

[enkeivette]

Just don't slap dick your way through structural welding. Snapped frames leading to firey wrecks would not be all that fun to be in.

I sort of want to weld a piece of 3/16, grind it down, sand it flat, and give it to my friend who is in welding class who can put it through the bender to see if there are any hairline cracks.

[enkeivette]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/Josh4x4x/explorer/ex%20rebuild%203/P2140009.jpg

I would go a step further than this guy, I would weld the frame and the 2x6 together, grind it flat, then weld the plating on top of it. Then brace it. Everyfuckingwhere.

But I don't see much of a point having the frame rails that far apart. If you're not doing center mount equal length control arms, why cut it at all?

I would want most of the motor in the cab, tie the frame in with a horizontal bar, extend two rails out from close in the center, just in front of the motor.

[enkeivette]

That would be a major SOB to do spark plugs though. I think you would need to bolt in the new firewall section. Maybe make an access panel for the oil fill. Then again, platinum plugs last 100K miles.

I really don't think this is so far fetched. Just the steering would take some time and patience and trial and error. Rack and pinion would be the only way to do it. Keep it simple.

[enkeivette]

I guess looking at this I see the appeal of a stock frame under the cab, every bend in the 2x6 steel would need to be welded, ground down, plated and braced. Keeping stock frame wherever possible is that much less to worry about.

[94cobra69ss396]

Are you looking at building a prerunner? Do you want 4WD or 2WD. If you want an Explorer get a 91-94. If it's 2WD it will have I beams and 4WD will have TTB. You can get a lot of travel with them. The rear suspension will be your main hurdle. If you keep the leaf spring setup you will be limited on the amount of travel but with a 63 inch Deaver or National spring you can still cycle 18 inches. You will have to come through the floor for the upper shock mount though. If you want more travel than that you will have to link the rear. If that's what you want then get a Ranger instead.

The reason Ranger guys back half is so they can get more compression travel while maintaining a low stance for better center of gravity. Some notch the frame instead. There's no reason to go through all that. You can get a lot of travel using the stock frame.

Also, cost will be a factor. If you keep it simple with coil/leaf springs it will cost a whole lot less than if you build a link system and use coilovers front and rear. I’d like to coilover the front of my Explorer one day but that won’t be for a very long time.

[enkeivette]

A-arms are a must. Moving the engine back half way into the cab is a must. And cutting the front frame just in front of the newly setback engine for center mount arms with coil overs is also a must.

I know I beams are the way to go if you plan to keep stock geometry for the most part, but this would only be fun for me if I built most of it myself. And I do it the way I have it in my head.


Also I've seen way too many Explorers and Rangers land on the front end and break shit. If I'm going to build a jumper, engine will need to go 12-24 inches back.

I should have enough money to get this started if I sell my boat. Not just for money but for garage space. But I like my boat, it's a dilemma. I could replace the neon with the ranger, but then I won't have a DD to work on while I'm building the truck. So I don't know. I need more garage space and more money.

[enkeivette]

Realistically too I would need a pipe bender. And I'm afraid to ask how much those cost.

[enkeivette]

And 2wd. I want to build something that has a sandrail like suspension up front, except plated for strength for the added weight. I see rod/ rod ends and lots of plating on the bottom arm in my head.

[enkeivette]

I think I'm done with the Vette for awhile. Just going to install the Holley pump when I get a chance, and some drag radials on the rear when my tires are bald. There's no reason to intercool that thing. It already makes too much power for the diff/ traction it has.

And I don't feel the need to spend thousands of dollars and years of time dialing in the rear end right now.

[Vettezuki]

Realistically too I would need a pipe bender. And I'm afraid to ask how much those cost.

You can get a basic manual one in the hundreds range. Nice hydraulic ones start in the low thousands. You'd also probably want a cold cut saw and pipe notcher (or mill). All things I want too. :)

[94cobra69ss396]

Realistically too I would need a pipe bender. And I'm afraid to ask how much those cost.

It's tubing, not pipe.

So let me prepare you for some of the costs you are going to be looking at. First off, heims. You will need 8 just for the inside mounting points of the upper and lower arms. They run around $100 each for good ones in the size you will want. Then you need 4 uniballs at about $150 each. So you have now spent about $1600 with tax and you haven't even started to fabricate anything yet. Now for the chromoly tubing. Well that's around $120 for a 20ft. section. You probably need about 100ft to do the front with an engine cage so there's another $1200. Then you'll want to get a set of coilovers. I'd go with a set of 2.5 Kings. So that's about $700 each without hardware. So add another $100-$150 for harware and then another $150 for dual rate springs. So that's around $2000 for the front coilovers. But then you'll want to have a bypass shock to tune the front. I'd use a 3 inch bypass with at least a 3 tube design for tuning. so there's another $2000 for two of them.

Get my point? Keep the boat and enjoy it. Wait to build an allout desert truck after you're making bank.

[enkeivette]

Point taken, but $800 for heims? Why not just use fatty rod ends and rod? The fat ass rod ends are like $20 a pop.

[94cobra69ss396]

You'll want ones like these that will last.

http://www.offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1/9/sfID2/298/sfID3/664/productID/37805

[enkeivette]

$110?! I think I'll stick with Coleman racing. How's about $16. There's another canadian co that sells bigger ones for a bit more.

http://colemanracing.com/store/shopexd.asp?id=7394

[94cobra69ss396]

Those are only 5/8 rods ends. They're tiny. Even the ones I'm using for my steering are 3/4. You will need to use 1.25 for the arms and at least 3/4 for the steering ends.

[BRUTAL64]

You need to talk to my friend Will. He designs and builds custom truck suspensions.

I know he is working on a number of fab kits for trucks.

[94cobra69ss396]

Who does Will work for?

[enkeivette]

1.25! Crazy, I think that is overkill. Especially for the uppers. I could see doing it for the lowers. Guaranteed I can still find them for less than half that.

Half of that stuff I would find used or online cheap. I'm not paying $2K for coilovers. That's when you go to the Pomona swap meet and pick up a set off the guy parting out his long travel Silverado to pay off his bail money. But yeah, I think I'll hang on to my boat for now.

[enkeivette]

Did you forget how much I paid for my boat?! My dirtbike? My Vette? It only gets better.

[enkeivette]

Yeah that took me all of 30 seconds to find. 1.25" $47, speedway motors. That was the other place I was thinking about. TT from CF buys stuff from there.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/X-Series-Moly-Heim-1-1-4-Inch-Male-RH-Thread,9380.html

[Vettezuki]

1.25! Crazy, I think that is overkill. Especially for the uppers. I could see doing it for the lowers.

That's an engineering question. If you go slamming around in the desert you're talking about some extraordinary forces. I'm not in the habit of guessing about things when it comes to structural engineering. These are well understood problems. If you don't buy it, have an engineer do a SolidWorks mock-up and plug in the pieces and model the forces at work. Bet you'll be surprised.

Half of that stuff I would find used or online cheap. I'm not paying $2K for coilovers. That's when you go to the Pomona swap meet and pick up a set off the guy parting out his long travel Silverado to pay off his bail money. But yeah, I think I'll hang on to my boat for now.

I salute your resourcefulness. If you ain't go the cash, time and effort can bridge quite a gap.

[enkeivette]

If only two of my best friends were engineer I would have access to that info... Haha. I would go stout on the lowers, but think about it, how much force it really on the uppers in comparison? The weight of the vehicle plus all of its inertia is pushing down on the control arm between the spring mount and the spindle, but the only force I can think of on the upper arm is the top of the spindle tending to pull it out, that can't be all that much force. The upper arm seems to be more of a geometry guide than anything.

[enkeivette]

Ron, I did understand what those guys were saying btw. An aftermarket control arm won't fix the problem at droop, I get that. But the reality is, as you pointed out, those springs are so insanely stiff, if he is able to back that spindle off the frame 3/8 of an inch (which an aftermarket control arm, lowering the BJ location, thereby slightly correcting the camber, moving the top of the spindle out as the control arm goes up the camber arc and consequently away from the frame... by juuust a bit) should be enough to fix my friends problem. Because like you realize, that thing isn't going to compress much anyways. And realistically he doesn't even offroad it. Train tracks will be his biggest obstacle.

But I don't feel like explaining all of that on dezertrangers. I'm so bored with those guys. Such a mistake not to post in the fab section. 95% of that thread is bullshit, and it's 3 fucking pages. Like I don't have better things to do with my time.

[enkeivette]

And you're welcome for the speedway motors link! I'm sure that will be saving you some money.

[enkeivette]

Btw, the real solution to my friends problem (and it is fucking hilarious to me that not one person on dezertrangers suggested it) would be to buy the old style camburg spindles. They are much taller than stock, utilize the stock style BJ, and being so much taller, would move the arms waaayyy back up the camber arc... moving the spindle back away from the frame.

The fagtech spindles don't do that, and the new camburg spindles utilize that heim joint which would require a new upper arm too. Which is another, much much more expensive alternative.

[enkeivette]

This is the newer arm, but still, look at the spindle height and the consequent angle of the arm and how far it pushes the top of the spindle away from the frame.

This is the answer.

http://www.modbargains.com/zoom_img/Camburg_Ranger_2wd_MW_1206615588.jpg

[94cobra69ss396]

Even if you would have put it in the fab section the same jerks would have replied. The whole site is like that. There are a lot of folks on there that are experts and know what they are doing but there are also a lot of kids on there who dads race or have friends that race so they think they know everything. I find it amusing when I go to the profile for some of the people who give advice and find that they have a stock truck with bigger tires and have never built anything. You just have to get use to it. They are trying to prove that they are men but do it by acting like they are 15 years old.

[enkeivette]

And thank you for sticking up for me about my car. I can't believe the nerve of some of them to diss my sports car when they have enough trouble understanding their own truck world.

[94cobra69ss396]

And thank you for sticking up for me about my car. I can't believe the nerve of some of them to diss my sports car when they have enough trouble understanding their own truck world.

Anytime.

[BRUTAL64]

Who does Will work for?

He doesn't work for anyone. He is free lance. Does all the welding and fab work. Showed some of his work to Ben.


His shop is one down from mine.

[enkeivette]

Ron, best guess. How far back could you set your engine before the bellhousing started to interfere with your knees?

On the less extreme side, how far till you would need to cut up the dash?



And more importantly, how far do you think it would need to go back so it was entirely behind the front axle?

[94cobra69ss396]

Not sure. What engine and what trans? What are the goals for the truck?

[enkeivette]

Not sure. What engine and what trans? What are the goals for the truck?

Your truck your engine, goal is to fly high. Haha.

[94cobra69ss396]

Alright, 95 Explorer with OHV 4.0 and 4R55E. The first thing I would do is build the cage and the front and rear suspension. Now for me that means leaf springs in the back because I still want to be able to have a back seat for my girls. Then I'd build the rear bumper with a tire mount and a gas can. Then I'd weigh the truck to see what it weighed at each corner with the engine and trans in the stock position. Once I had that I would pull the engine and trans so I could figure how far back I needed to move it to get 50/50 - 45/55 weight distribution. Now I'm just guessing that somewhere around that would be ideal, I have no experience to go off of.

[94cobra69ss396]

I posted up a new thread on DR an hour ago to see what they have to say about weight distribution. So far 9 people have viewed it but no responses. Hopefully some of the racers will reply.

[94cobra69ss396]

Alright, one reply but he just talked around my questions and didn't answer them.

[enkeivette]

Oh you have the V6? I sort of assumed it was the 8. I would want the 5L, so I could build a 347 when cash allowed.

I would think you would want the motor as far back as possible, like a sand rail. I think it would even be cool to mount it behind the rear axle, like where the spare tire cage is on trucks, and use a Mendeola transaxle just like in a sand rail. But that would be a serious cash sucking project.

Keep that front end as light as possible. Land with the nose up, that's better than nose down.

[enkeivette]

There was a Ranger on DR a few years ago that ran a V8 and set it back so that most of it was in the cab. I really want to find that post so I can see pics of how he did his front frame.

[94cobra69ss396]

So the first guy that told you change the springs was the first to answer. He said 75/25 front/rear but is the one who just talked around my questions. Then second person to answer is a guy that invited me out to the races to ride in his truck that I helped him figure out what was wrong with it the day before the race. I know he knows what he's talking about.

He said that you want to be around 50/50 to 49/51. He said that his truck is currently 51/49 and that two of his buddy's trucks are 50/50. He going to be installing a larger, heavier fuel cell and when he does he is shooting for 49/51. His truck is a Ranger with a 302 and I believe a C4 and he mounted the engine in the stock position.

So it looks like what I said before is correct. So once you have the truck set up the way you want weigh it and then set the engine where it will be 50/50 to 49/51.

[enkeivette]

A truck with a V8 in the stock location is almost 50/50?

[enkeivette]

75/25, that's retarded.

[94cobra69ss396]

A truck with a V8 in the stock location is almost 50/50?

He has as much mounted behind the rear axle as possible. Here's his truck. Also, it's 51/49 right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOsmJEkX-Q

[enkeivette]

Wow I love that truck. Watch its holes.

But after that jump it still looks like his front end is coming down. I'm just paranoid about this. I was in a lifted explorer before, we got about 5 feet of air, came down on the front and cracked the front crossmember. Steering was a lot closer to the exhaust manifold after that. Eeek.

I don't see the negative effect, other than on handling, to have more like a 60 rear, 40 front distribution. For safety in jumping alone. And I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand.


...I won't need a Neon that gets 33mpg driving back and forth to OC every weekend. So an Exploder in exchange for the Neon seems to be very plausible in the near future.

[94cobra69ss396]

Explorers are diferent than Rangers. Explorers tend to kick the rear end up where Rangers don't. I use to have a '91 Ranger with Autofab beams, Fabtech radius arms, 4 inch lift National coils and National rear leafs with the shackles flipped. It cycled around 14 front and 15-16 in the rear. I use to jump it all the time and it almost always landed on all four once I softened up the rear shocks. One time I took Amy's dad and step mom out to Barstow and we found a jump that we were taking at 70-75 mph. Amy's step mom rode first and Amy said that when we hit the jump the tires were well over her head (she's 6'2") and we cleared about 60ft.

We sold it to Eric back when we had Kylie because we needed something with more seating. He evently rolled it (good think it had a full cage and 4 point harnesses).

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1270/4901/3174950003_large.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1270/4901/3174950011_large.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1270/4901/3174950001_large.jpg