Mustang 331/327 build

[eric97srad]

Alright, this build is finally underway.

Ron (94cobra69ss396) and I pulled the motor out today and tomorrow I will start disassembly and some cleaning of the parts that will be reused.

The plan (as of now, subject to change, void where prohibited, etc etc) is to check the cylinders to see if they are out of round - if they are, the block will be bored .030" over and will be 331ci with either the CHP street fighter or pro street (depending on $$) stroker kit. If the cylinders are still in good shape, I'm going to go with a 327ci with the pro street kit.

As a few of you guys already know, we came up on a killer deal on a Paxton Novi 2000 blower, so that'll be going on. I've already purchased new 180cc aluminum heads, but I'm still on the lookout for an intake manifold and have to purchase a new cam and a few odds and ends before it can be finished.

I don't really have a timeline on this right now because fall semester starts in 2 weeks, but I'm hoping for the car to be on the road again by November or so...:drink:

[SeanPlunk]

That thing is going to be a monster. I need to get the whipple on the Cobra ASAP.

[SeanPlunk]

Oh, and a friend is looking into doing a giant dyno day on November 20th. Kind of a domestic muscle car shootout. Try to have it ready by then :)

[Leedom]

That thing is going to be a monster. I need to get the whipple on the Cobra ASAP.

Don't bother Sean. You will still be slower than everyone else the way you drive.

Good luck Eric, I look forward to seeing and hearing this monster!

[eric97srad]

Here are the pictures from the first day.

http://a.imageshack.us/img44/3473/1001037a.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img694/331/1001038r.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img10/2820/1001040h.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img823/3032/1001041.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img192/8318/1001052y.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img831/7665/1001056x.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img831/2571/1001063x.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img842/6204/1001064b.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img818/2155/1001066.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img842/7728/1001073u.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img842/7014/1001077j.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img833/995/1001086.jpg

[Vettezuki]

Awesome. :drink:

[blackax]

Looks like you got a nice start on it.

[SeanPlunk]

Ron, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the stock block only good for 500whp or so (not the bottom end, but the actual block)? Eric's car should be well over that I'd imagine...

[94cobra69ss396]

Ron, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the stock block only good for 500whp or so (not the bottom end, but the actual block)? Eric's car should be well over that I'd imagine...

That's what people say but the ones that break the block are the ones revving them high. We're building this simular to the 302 in my Cobra and are going to keep the RPMS at no higher than 6000 and only 10 PSI of boost. I figure with the 331, a little larger heads and a better cam that that he will probably make somewhere around 470-480 at the wheels on pump gas and 510-520 rwhp on race fuel.

Even at that his car will be faster than my Cobra because it will have more power and is a little lighter.

[joedls]

This one was running fine on 12 PSI with water-meth injection. I added the water-meth injection after melting a piston, but the block was fine. I also kept it under 6000 RPMs.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/th_1377.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/?action=view&current=1377.mp4)

[94cobra69ss396]

What did it make with the roots blower? I'm making 436rwhp on pump gas and 471 on VP110.

[SeanPlunk]

What kind of compression are you going to set the new motor up at? Something in the 9-9.5 to 1 area?

[94cobra69ss396]

What kind of compression are you going to set the new motor up at? Something in the 9-9.5 to 1 area?

CHP shows the compression at 9.2:1 with the 58cc heads and a 4.030 bore. However, I don't think the block is going to need to be bored. I think we'll be able to just do a hone on it but Eric will have Speed-O-Motive confirm that when he drops off the block. I'm kind of hoping it doesn't need the bore so that the cylinder walls will be thicker for a little more strength.

[joedls]

What did it make with the roots blower? I'm making 436rwhp on pump gas and 471 on VP110.


On that engine dyno, it made 556 HP with 8 PSI of boost. I never put it on a chassis dyno. After running it for a bit, I slapped on a smaller pulley and melted a piston when I tried to tune it on the street (should have gone to a dyno tuner). I was able to hone the cylinder and replace the piston. So I installed the water-meth kit. I took the car to a dyno-tuner and couldn't get it to work. He kept telling me I was having spark blow-out. I left in frustration and figured out I had installed the injector nozzle backwards. So I tuned it myself on the street and was able to run 26* of timing.

So, I guess the answer to your question is, I don't know. I would guess somewhere ~500 to the wheels. I know it was a monster!!

[94cobra69ss396]

Wow, that's alot of timing with boost. I only have 16* at 6000 on the pump gas tune. That thing must have had a ton of torque with the 427 and a roots.

I think Eric's engine is going to be real fun in his car. I see third gear burnouts in it's future! Or maybe a broken T5.

[SeanPlunk]

Wow, that's alot of timing with boost. I only have 16* at 6000 on the pump gas tune. That thing must have had a ton of torque with the 427 and a roots.

I think Eric's engine is going to be real fun in his car. I see third gear burnouts in it's future! Or maybe a broken T5.

As long as he doesn't put sticky tires on, I think he'll be fine. If he does put sticky tires on though, then I see a broken T5 :judge:

[SeanPlunk]

Ron, what's the curb weight on that thing, like 3000lbs? It's going to be a beast when you're done...

[94cobra69ss396]

I'm not sure. I know that the LX is supposed to be the lightest body style next to the LX notch back.

[Shaolin Crane]

me likey foxes

[eric97srad]

Ron, what's the curb weight on that thing, like 3000lbs? It's going to be a beast when you're done...

I'm pretty sure it's about 2900.

Power to weight ratio is lookin pretty good :drive:

[94cobra69ss396]

I looked it up the curb weight online and it comes up as 3300. We'll have to weigh it once it's done.

[joedls]

Wow, that's alot of timing with boost. I only have 16* at 6000 on the pump gas tune.


Yeah, that's the beauty of water-meth. I melted the piston at 22* without it.

That thing must have had a ton of torque with the 427 and a roots.


Actually, it was a 347 and it definitely had plenty of torque.

[94cobra69ss396]

Sorry, that was a typo. I knew it was a 347. My fingers just naturally type in big block.

[Shaolin Crane]

I'm pretty sure it's about 2900.

Power to weight ratio is lookin pretty good :drive:

Coupes are barely that light, i think they are around 3000-3100lbs

[eric97srad]

Coupes are barely that light, i think they are around 3000-3100lbs

4cyl coupes are 2750, GT verts are 3300... mine is somewhwere in the middle

[94cobra69ss396]

Where's the update from today and yesterday?

[eric97srad]

I'm on the freeway - it's difficult to update from here.. I'll upload new pictures tonight and do an update.

[SeanPlunk]

Waiting (semi)patiently for an update :)

[94cobra69ss396]

Wow, that's some traffic.

[SeanPlunk]

Wow, that's some traffic.

:thumbs_up:

[eric97srad]

Let's just say I'm prepared to start a rant about the freeway problem in the BS Lounge right now...

So quick update and then pics when I have a chance...

Yesterday morning (aka noonish) I started disassembly of the engine... and got it down to how it sits right now - block w/crank, rods, pistons, cam still in and oil pan still on...

I had Ron look at the upper portions of the cylinder walls to see what he thought, and we came to the determination that the block is still in pretty good shape for 200,000 miles and I might be able to get away with the 327.

Today, I called Speedomotive only to find they are extremely arrogant and don't want to deal with the low budget diy-er... I was looking at about $2700 when all was said and done to walk out with my short block assembled as a 331. They told me they will not let a factory Ford block leave their shop without being bored because they have yet to find one which matches the original block blue prints. So 327 is out as of now...
So my alternative option was to call Rancho Engine Machine and get a quote for just the machining and do the rest of the work myself... They quoted me about $300 for a hot tank, bore and hone, cam bearing install, freeze plugs installed and pistons pressed onto the rods. Adding in the cost of the Coast High Performance kit with a girdle kit, flywheel and the current offer of free balancing - I'm looking at a total of about $1500 to have an assembled 331 block, plus the reward of doing it myself.
So that's the story - I'm pulling the trigger on that one. Everything should come together relatively quickly this fall and hopefully in time for the next Dyno pull that you mentioned, Sean

[SeanPlunk]

That sounds awesome. I can't wait to see the finished product :)

[94cobra69ss396]

That sounds awesome. I can't wait to see the finished product :)

He's coming over this morning to pull the rest of the short block apart so that he can drop the block off at Rancho Engine & Machine.

[enkeivette]

Try- Larry's Performance / Track Pro -in Bellflower. He gives amazing deals on shortblocks, and will work with you.

Do your own compression calculations though. :leaving: I'll bet he would get you out of there for less than $2K.

[94cobra69ss396]

Try- Larry's Performance / Track Pro -in Bellflower. He gives amazing deals on shortblocks, and will work with you.

Do your own compression calculations though. :leaving: I'll bet he would get you out of there for less than $2K.

Eric already dropped the block off at Rancho Engine and Machine to have it bored over. We are going to do all the assembly at my house so we'll check everything then.

[enkeivette]

Cool, I have piston ring pliers and an adjustable pushrod if you guys need either.

[94cobra69ss396]

Cool, I have piston ring pliers and an adjustable pushrod if you guys need either.

I have a ring compressor so we're good there and I think we'll be be able to use the stock length push rods. He bought heads that use the stock pedestal mount rockers and the cam is about the same size that I used in the Cobra. If anything we'll only need to re-shim the rockers like I did on the Cobra but I'll let you know if we need to borrow your adjustable push rod. Thanks for the offer.

[enkeivette]

I have a ring compressor so we're good there and I think we'll be be able to use the stock length push rods. He bought heads that use the stock pedestal mount rockers and the cam is about the same size that I used in the Cobra. If anything we'll only need to re-shim the rockers like I did on the Cobra but I'll let you know if we need to borrow your adjustable push rod. Thanks for the offer.

You have the piston ring compressor but do you have piston ring pliers? I have snapped a few old piston rings trying to take them off without the pliers, I would hate to see it happen to a new set going on.

[94cobra69ss396]

I've never used pliers before. I've always just installed them using my thumbs.

[enkeivette]

I've never used pliers before. I've always just installed them using my thumbs.

Maybe you've done it enough times where it doesn't matter. I have trouble doing that. These make it pretty easy.

http://www.international-tool.com/images/70.jpg

[enkeivette]

What sort of compressor do you use? I bought a Craftsman one and it was a piece of shit. Broke after 6 pistons. Next time I'm going to buy a solid one from Jegs for the correct size.

[94cobra69ss396]

What sort of compressor do you use? I bought a Craftsman one and it was a piece of shit. Broke after 6 pistons. Next time I'm going to buy a solid one from Jegs for the correct size.

I have a Craftman one too. Mine slips a little sometimes but I've learned to work with it.

[BRUTAL64]

I've never used pliers before. I've always just installed them using my thumbs.

Been putting on ring with my thumbs for.............years. Still the best way.:thumbs_up:

[94cobra69ss396]

Ben's an expert at it now.

[eric97srad]

Alright, I've been slacking on this a bit... got a little busy with school.

So I think tomorrow I'm going to pick up the block from the shop - it's already been bored and honed, I'm hoping he's also already installed the cam bearings and freeze plugs.

I'll start assembling it this weekend, but I still have to buy some more parts so it might still be a little while before it's done.

in the meantime here are the pictures I was supposed to post 2 and a half months ago...

http://imgur.com/TAa94.jpg
http://imgur.com/K3G74.jpg
http://imgur.com/Zatbe.jpg
http://imgur.com/m5EpT.jpg
http://imgur.com/vM9ua.jpg
http://imgur.com/8Umu3.jpg


there was just a bit of grime on the engine... just a bit... but it's all fresh and clean now. Can't wait to drive the car again!

[SeanPlunk]

Awesome. I can't wait to see the finished project :)

[eric97srad]

HA, you said that in this thread once already... sorry Sean, you're gunna have to wait a little while - I'm broke! lol

[94cobra69ss396]

We should just build it NA so I can buy the Novi 2000 off you.

[eric97srad]

Didn't pick up the block today - have to have the hone redone to .005" I initially had him do it at .003" but probe recommends more clearance for forced induction... I guess I'm going to pick it up next week now. :bang:

[SeanPlunk]

Didn't pick up the block today - have to have the hone redone to .005" I initially had him do it at .003" but probe recommends more clearance for forced induction... I guess I'm going to pick it up next week now. :bang:

That sucks, but I definitely think it's the right decision in the long run.

[94cobra69ss396]

Eric and I started assembling his engine last night. We started by removing the sharp edges on the pistons.

Before:
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/100_12301.JPG
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/100_12311.JPG

After:
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/100_12331.JPG
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/100_12341.JPG

Then we checked the piston to wall clearance on each cylinder using the piston that was going into that cylinder. All were a very tight .005.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/100_12351.JPG

We then installed the main bearing and plastigaged the crank mains. All were around .0025. Next we installed a rod and piston and checked the block clearance for the stroker crank. The tightest clearance was .107 so we didn't need to clearance the block at all. We then took it back apart and cleaned everything with soap and warm water and then installed the crank.

Today we are going to plastigage the rod bearings and then assemble the pistons and rods, install the piston rings, and install the pistons. Eric will post up more pictures later.

[jedhead]

Will removing the material from the pistons require re-balancing?

Bob

[94cobra69ss396]

Will removing the material from the pistons require re-balancing?

Bob

We didn't remove enough to make a difference in the weight. If we had removed a lot of material then I would have it rebalanced but not with the little we did.

However, we did run into an issue today and I'm glad we did because I discovered I misread the plastigage yesterday. Today we started by installing the pistons on the rods. FYI, full floating pins with Spirolox are a pain the ass to install. Just ask Eric. So after that we checked the bearing clearance and discovered it only had .0015. That's when I realized I misread the Plastigage yesterday when doing the mains. On the mains we only have .0017-.0018. We double checked just to make sure. So we need to get some new bearings that are undersized .001 so that we have the proper clearances. The good news is that we should be able to get them Monday. We also checked the side clearance between the rods which is .0015 so we are good there.

[Shaolin Crane]

You think those locks are hard to install, try removing them :mad:

[94cobra69ss396]

You think those locks are hard to install, try removing them :mad:

No thanks. I'm hoping the engine will last a very long time so it will be years before we have to take them off. Eric was supposed to call CHP Monday about the bearings but he didn't have time so we're on hold right now.

[Shaolin Crane]

No thanks. I'm hoping the engine will last a very long time so it will be years before we have to take them off. Eric was supposed to call CHP Monday about the bearings but he didn't have time so we're on hold right now.

When i put together my old motor i put one of the pistons on backwards, and had a HELL of a time getting the fuckers off

[94cobra69ss396]

When we checked the piston to wall clearance we numbered each piston with the cylinder we checked it in. Then when we were installing the rods we made sure the rod and piston were facing the correct direction. We also wrote down which rod number was for which cylinder. So I know we won't have to take any apart.

Eric spoke to Coast High Performance today and the Ford engine specialist said that the clearances we had with the plastigage were fine because it isn't very accurate. He said that it usually reads on the tight side and that if we were seeing .0018 with it the clearance was most likely around .0020-.0022. He also told Eric if he was still worried about it that he should take it to a machine shop and have them measure it but that it should be fine. I think Phil has a micrometer that measures ten-thousandths so we'll probably get it from him while he's back for Thanksgiving and then measure it ourselves.

[Shaolin Crane]

Oh i did the same thing, even the rods are numbered along with the pistons. Just that one distracted moment and i realized i put the rod in the wrong piston.

[94cobra69ss396]

Well we haven't updated this in a long time. We ran the bearings as they were and have finished assembling most of the engine. Also, this engine is not going to be NA for a while and Eric is going to add the supercharger at a later time. I dropped the engine in yesterday and we are going to finish it up at the end of this week. Here's how it sits as of yesterday.

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/2011-07-10_15_23_29.jpg

[Shaolin Crane]

Im sure Eric could score a supercharger kit for cheap. They are all over the place right now, i know i scored big time but if he isnt afraid to lowball the shit out of people im sure he can too. What rockers is he running? I know most rockers dont like the stock valve covers.

[94cobra69ss396]

He already has a Paxton Novi 2000 with the bracket and idler pulley. He just needs everything else. The reason he's not going to supercharge it right now is that he is moving to FL with his girlfriend and doesn't have the extra cash to buy all the parts he needs to install it. After he gets settled in FL he'll start collecting parts to install it.

[Shaolin Crane]

Have hime check out www.superchargersonline.com they offer wholesale pricing on lots of supercharger related parts.

[94cobra69ss396]

It's finished! I didn't get any pictures yet because I've been working on it all day. It fired right up on the first try and after setting the timing at 13 degrees and the idle at 900 it sounds great with a nice little lope. Eric's on his way to FL and will be back in a week to pick it up to drive it to FL. I'm going to try and run around in it locally here for the next few days to make sure there isn't any issues. We already have one though which is a tire that won't hold air for more than about 15 minutes. I'll try to get it pulled off tomorrow and patched.

[SeanPlunk]

Awesome! Did he pick it up?

[94cobra69ss396]

No, he is still on his way to FL. They are driving out towing a trailer. He will be flying back here in a few days to pick it up.

[SeanPlunk]

Pics?

[94cobra69ss396]

Sorry but I was really busy today and didn't get a chance to take any. I'll try to tomorrow and will also try and get some good video of the sound. The idle sounds great!

[94cobra69ss396]

Here's a couple I just took. I'll get video after the battery in my camera finishes charging.

http://www.motortopia.com/files/9911/album_dezertrangers/4e386bbb2f420/2011-08-02_141258.jpg

http://www.motortopia.com/files/9911/album_dezertrangers/4e386bc7114d6/2011-08-02_141309.jpg

[94cobra69ss396]

Eric's new 331 at an idle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IW0De_9JRA

[Shaolin Crane]

I dont remember if you told me or not, but is that a performance products intake?

[94cobra69ss396]

It's a Professional Products Typhoon intake.

http://site.americanmuscle.com/yswimages/typhoon-manifold-8695-satin.jpg

I wouldn't recommend it though. The aluminum is soft and the casting isn't that great.

[89StangGuy]

That motor sounds good Ron!:drool2:

[94cobra69ss396]

Thanks. I pulls pretty good too. I originally bought the cam we installed in it for my Cobra but I was afraid it had too much lift with the 1.7 rockers and the stock pistons so I bought an E303. I kind of wish I would have installed it now.

[89StangGuy]

I bet it does. I thought that was the original plan? I remember you helped me work on my 5.0 so in return i gave you the E303 and you told me you were gonna install it on this car.

[94cobra69ss396]

Nope. I gave that E303 to someone else. This is a Lunati cam I bought about 6 or 7 years ago. It has the same duration at .050 and LSA as an E303 but it has a .514 lift instead of the .498. It also has different timing events.

[89StangGuy]

Ah i see. The E cam would have suited your build better? I like the E cam, but i drove my car with an E cam, versus a TFS cam and it pulled better for me.

[Shaolin Crane]

I need an e-cam :(

[Shaolin Crane]

Ron how much of a pita is it to get the upper off with the bolt inside the intake? I see the original eddy intakes for $250-$300 all day long but am put off by the bolts inside

[94cobra69ss396]

On my Vortech/Saleen intake it's not that bad. I have to remove the TB and TB elbow and then I can get a 1/2 wrench on the nut. The hard part is putting the nut back on because you can't get your hand in there.

[Shaolin Crane]

I thought you had a cobra intake on your car? Is the professional products/eddy intake the same difficulty? I imagine you drop the bolt and you need to take off the intake again.

[94cobra69ss396]

You are talking about bolting down the upper to the lower, correct? The Typhoon bolts are all easy to get to.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yeah, dont you have to pull the side cover to get to the 2 inner bolts? I imagine it would be a pita reaching under there

[94cobra69ss396]

The Typhoon bolts on just like the stock manifold. It has two long bolts which you can see in the pictures that bolt through it.

[Shaolin Crane]

Hmmm, i didnt notice that. The eddy version of it has 2 bolts inside the intake

[Leedom]

Good to see it up and running. I love the way old 5.0s sound. Mean as hell.

[Shaolin Crane]

Come to the dark side...

[94cobra69ss396]

Eric flew in yesterday and we took his car down to have some new tires put on. After we picked it up we headed for the freeway to see how it did against my Cobra. I'm quite impressed. On my pump gas tune I just barely pull him. Oh the advantages of a lighter car. I'd say with a good sticky tire and a 5500-6000 rpm launch he should be able to run an 11.9.

I really need to build a 331 for the Cobra.

[Shaolin Crane]

Eric flew in yesterday and we took his car down to have some new tires put on. After we picked it up we headed for the freeway to see how it did against my Cobra. I quite impressed. On my pump gas tune I just barely pull him. Oh the advantage of a lighter car. I'd say with a good sticky tire and a 5500-6000 rpm lauch he should be able to run an 11.9.

I really need to build a 331 for the Cobra.
Why cut yourself short? The 347 kits cost the same, might as well get all your rebuild is worth out of it.

[94cobra69ss396]

I just feel that a 331 will last longer. My plan eventually is the 331 with a set of AFR 205 heads and the largest cam I can run will still passing smog.

[Shaolin Crane]

I didnt think 205's had egr ports. The 347 331 debate has long been ended with the design of the new kits,, i know just as many high mileage 347s plus you'll blow that block to bits before the rotating assembly goes. Leave the heads you have now, port the ever living shit out of them, advance your cam a tad, go with a 347 and you'll make enough to ruin that engine anyhow.

[87LX]

Car looks just like mine used to. I love it.
Guy, the Eddy intake has one bolt on the inside and it is a pita. I have a ratchet that will turn the socket when I twist the handle. Only thing that makes it bearable.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yeah I doubt my bear paw hands will be ale to reach inside to get to it, but those intakes are so damn cheap :(

[87LX]

picked mine up for about 200. I know the numbers say it flows only slightly better than the gt40 but damn it pullls so much harder.

[Shaolin Crane]

Yeah ive been finding them in the 250-300 range, maybe i'll run a victor jr. style and rely on the boost :)

[87LX]

I dont want to hijack so you can text me later if you want, but what motor are you going to put this on?

[Shaolin Crane]

I dont want to hijack so you can text me later if you want, but what motor are you going to put this on?

http://www.motorgen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28546