Questions.

[silvertermi04]

Ok i think this is where the thread should go if not sorry. My dad and I have a 1972 mustang Mach1 that came with the 302 instead of the better 351W or351C. Well we had it sitting for a while because of problems with the tranny plus since we both got New cars (used 01 expediton super clean and low millage that i got at work. Me and my dad bought for my mom as mothers day present, and i bought the cobra) we were short on the money for fixing it and add-ons. Well as of now we changed the carb as well as the intake, put a AOD tranny (i wanted to to a 5 speed conversion but since my dad will drive it way more than i will the auto stayed.) Long tube headers and new carpet. The next thing will be trying to clean up the wiring as well as some Flowmaster mufflers. The question is How do carb engines react to premium gasoline or even some race gas. It runs good and somewhat smooth. The engine is a tired 302 so hopefully later on i can throw in a roller 302 from a 5.0 Mustang. Does the carb have ro be upfited with better seals for the race gas or higher premium fuel. Im hopping that putting a couple gallons of 100 and the rest 91 on it will smooth the iddle a bit more. Thanks.

[Vettezuki]

Ok i think this is where the thread should go if not sorry. My dad and I have a 1972 mustang Mach1 that came with the 302 instead of the better 351W or351C. Well we had it sitting for a while because of problems with the tranny plus since we both got New cars (used 01 expediton super clean and low millage that i got at work. Me and my dad bought for my mom as mothers day present, and i bought the cobra) we were short on the money for fixing it and add-ons. Well as of now we changed the carb as well as the intake, put a AOD tranny (i wanted to to a 5 speed conversion but since my dad will drive it way more than i will the auto stayed.) Long tube headers and new carpet. The next thing will be trying to clean up the wiring as well as some Flowmaster mufflers. The question is How do carb engines react to premium gasoline or even some race gas. It runs good and somewhat smooth. The engine is a tired 302 so hopefully later on i can throw in a roller 302 from a 5.0 Mustang. Does the carb have ro be upfited with better seals for the race gas or higher premium fuel. Im hopping that putting a couple gallons of 100 and the rest 91 on it will smooth the iddle a bit more. Thanks.

You'll probably get a more detailed answer from BRUTAL64 later, but here's my 2 cents.

Your idle quality has nothing to do with the octane rating of the gas you're running. (With the possible exception of very low octane on a very high compression engine, but that's a different story with much bigger potential problems.) Is that gas that's in there "fresh" or has it been sitting in the tank for a year or more? If it has, it may have begun to separate, or there might be a lot of water in it, etc., which would certainly could effect how smoothly the engine is running. Assuming the gas is fresh, the idle quality has to do with the engine and most likely the carb itself.

The only reason to run higher octane fuel is because of higher compression, more boost, and/or more timing. The octane is simply a resistance of the fuel igniting. For example, low octane fuel is dangerous (won't really work) in a high compression engine because it will knock, or possibly pre-detonate, potentially damaging or even destroying the engine. A higher octane will allow the air/fuel mixture to be compressed without spontaneously igniting.

[joedls]

You'll probably get a more detailed answer from BRUTAL64 later, but here's my 2 cents.

Your idle quality has nothing to do with the octane rating of the gas you're running. (With the possible exception of very low octane on a very high compression engine, but that's a different story with much bigger potential problems.) Is that gas that's in there "fresh" or has it been sitting in the tank for a year or more? If it has, it may have begun to separate, or there might be a lot of water in it, etc., which would certainly could effect how smoothly the engine is running. Assuming the gas is fresh, the idle quality has to do with the engine and most likely the carb itself.

The only reason to run higher octane fuel is because of higher compression, more boost, and/or more timing. The octane is simply a resistance of the fuel igniting. For example, low octane fuel is dangerous (won't really work) in a high compression engine because it will knock, or possibly pre-detonate, potentially damaging or even destroying the engine. A higher octane will allow the air/fuel mixture to be compressed without spontaneously igniting.


What he said. And to add a little, your car will not run any better without some tuning for high octane fuel. Simply adding the fuel without tuning for it will net you nothing.

[silvertermi04]

OK thanks guys, the fuel in there was old so we drained it, I figured we had to play with the carb a little since its an aftermarket one and we just slaped it on there. My question was more toward if adding higher octane towards a carbed car if there would be any problems. Also was if there is any setbacks towars adding a couple gallons of race fuel to every tank. I think when we do the rewiring im going to ask my dad if we could just do an aftermarket ignitions with wires better spark plugs and cap and rotor.
Do u guys think its worth it getting an aftermarket ignition system like MSD for a mostly stock engine.

[silvertermi04]

By the way thanks for the rest of the answers they answerd, i know the carb needs playing around with as well as finding the best timing for the car and like i said maybe adding the aftermarket wires, plugs, cap, rotor and that thing that bolst to the inner fender well that i just forgot the name of lol

[Vettezuki]

. . . My question was more toward if adding higher octane towards a carbed car if there would be any problems. Also was if there is any setbacks towars adding a couple gallons of race fuel to every tank. I think when we do the rewiring im going to ask my dad if we could just do an aftermarket ignitions with wires better spark plugs and cap and rotor. . .

Basically no, no real set back. Simply there's no reason to do it. The energy content of the higher octane gas is not higher, only its resistance to igniting. However, if you have a higher compression motor (I don't know what that one is), the higher octane would let you go for a more agressive tune and make more power, namely with advanced timing. I guess my point is, there's not really any harm in running higher octane fuel on a stock engine, but unless it's combined with agressive tuning, etc., there's no point either. Some might even say that running premium in an engine designed for regular may actually reduce power, mostly because of the way the fuel ignites and the timing curve, but I've never seen any scientific study.

Conclusion. Sure you can put it in there, but unless you do something to take advantage of the higher octane fuel, there's no inherent advantage to putting that gas in.

As for ignition, I'll leave that to the other guys who know way more about that old school stuff. :smack: I only know that some serious guys I know seem to prefer Mallory over MSD, but there's certainly plenty of people running MSD. :huh:

[BRUTAL64]

I'm not a fan (at all) of MSD!!!!!!!!!:suicide:

There are some good answeres here. YOU guys are smart.:drink:

[silvertermi04]

Thanks to vettezuki, joedls and brutal64. I guess then will keep the 87 fuel on the car. As far as ignition goes then i might look into the Mallory ones. Should i do all the stuff i posted earlier or just wires ????????

[BRUTAL64]

Thanks to vettezuki, joedls and brutal64. I guess then will keep the 87 fuel on the car. As far as ignition goes then i might look into the Mallory ones. Should i do all the stuff i posted earlier or just wires ????????

The Ready to Run MSD Dizzies are pretty good. I really like the Accel Multi spark box. I use Accel stuff most of the time.

We sell the Accel Multi spark stuff here. I use the 8 mil Super Stock Spiral wrap wires. The Accel Caps are the way to go.:drink:

[silvertermi04]

The Ready to Run MSD Dizzies are pretty good. I really like the Accel Multi spark box. I use Accel stuff most of the time.

We sell the Accel Multi spark stuff here. I use the 8 mil Super Stock Spiral wrap wires. The Accel Caps are the way to go.:drink:

Ok so cap and rotor from Accel and wires as well, what about that things thats mounted in the engine bay usually by the passanger fender.

[Vettezuki]

The Ready to Run MSD Dizzies are pretty good. I really like the Accel Multi spark box. I use Accel stuff most of the time.

We sell the Accel Multi spark stuff here. I use the 8 mil Super Stock Spiral wrap wires. The Accel Caps are the way to go.:drink:

So you generally don't like MSD, except for their drop in Dizzies?

[silvertermi04]

Dizzies ??????? what is that.

[Vettezuki]

Dizzies ??????? what is that.

Dizzy = Distributor. You know, because distributor takes too long to say and someone might know what you're talking about. :smack:

[silvertermi04]

:nutkick:

[joedls]

I think when we do the rewiring im going to ask my dad if we could just do an aftermarket ignitions with wires better spark plugs and cap and rotor.
Do u guys think its worth it getting an aftermarket ignition system like MSD for a mostly stock engine.

For your application, I would just get a good coil and a pertronix electronic ignition module to put in a stock distributor. Also get some good wires, a good cap, and plugs and you're good to go without spending a whole lot of cash.

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx

[BRUTAL64]

For your application, I would just get a good coil and a pertronix electronic ignition module to put in a stock distributor. Also get some good wires, a good cap, and plugs and you're good to go without spending a whole lot of cash.

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx

That's actually what I did. I used the Pertronix Ingitor one first then went to the Pertronix Ingitor II with the variable dwell. But you need a .6 coil with the II. :motorsmile:

Accel stuff I have used lasted many many years. Remember I've had the Vette since 72 and have only bought three Accel caps. You can not go wrong with Accel Ingition parts. I have one Super Stock coil that I put on in 72 and finally took it off last year for .6 coil. It still works. I got a NEW MSD coil and it lasted only a month. Finally went to a Pertronix .6 coil last year and it is still working. :bigthumbsup:


"Dizzy" is used by people who KNOW what's happening.:judge::rolling:

[BRUTAL64]

So you generally don't like MSD, except for their drop in Dizzies?

Yes, the Ready to Runs MSDs Dizzy seem to hold up ok. It's their damn 5 and 6a type boxes that are crap. Before you say "mine works fine". I've been dealing with the MSD crap since 78. I've had to save DOZENS of people when thier boxes just quit. I have 6 of my own in a box somewhere. They all quit at the worst possible times. No more for me.:rant:

[94cobra69ss396]

Basically no, no real set back. Simply there's no reason to do it. The energy content of the higher octane gas is not higher, only its resistance to igniting. However, if you have a higher compression motor (I don't know what that one is), the higher octane would let you go for a more agressive tune and make more power, namely with advanced timing. I guess my point is, there's not really any harm in running higher octane fuel on a stock engine, but unless it's combined with agressive tuning, etc., there's no point either. Some might even say that running premium in an engine designed for regular may actually reduce power, mostly because of the way the fuel ignites and the timing curve, but I've never seen any scientific study.

Conclusion. Sure you can put it in there, but unless you do something to take advantage of the higher octane fuel, there's no inherent advantage to putting that gas in.

As for ignition, I'll leave that to the other guys who know way more about that old school stuff. :smack: I only know that some serious guys I know seem to prefer Mallory over MSD, but there's certainly plenty of people running MSD. :huh:


Popular Hot Rodding did a test on a 400hp 10:1 compression 355 Chevy on race fuel vs pump gas. They ran 91, 100 and 118. This was their conclusion "Filling your tank with high-octane fuel, when your engine runs fine with 91 octane, is a waste of money. In this engine's case, minimal gains were achieved after a dozen tests were made, and would be too small to notice at the track. The higher 118-octane fuel made less power than both 100 and 91 octane."

I'm with Glen on the MSD stuff even though that's what I'm running on both the Chevelle and the Cobra. I use to have Mallory stuff on the Chevelle but the distributor broke after 14 years of racing on it and it was almost $400 for the same one now. I only paid $159 from Super Shops back when I bought it in 1993.

Anyhow, I don't know if it's because I added a timing retard to the system or if it just isn't as strong of a spark but I have to run 43 degrees of timing to run the same mph as I did with 36 degrees with the Mallory stuff.

Also, Taylor makes a good wire and are reasonably priced. I've run MSD, Ford Racing and Taylor wires on the Cobra and both the MSD and Ford Racing wires burnt through near the header. The Taylor wires haven't and they have been on there at least a year. The Ford Racing wires were the worst and only lasted about a month before they burt through.

[TimAT]

I put a MSD Pro-Billet distributor in Ol' Red. The factory TI distributor had some issues with the lower bushing- after 38 years of running a factory HV oil pump it was worn out. The instructions that came with it (the MSD), said "must be used with an MSD 6, 6AL, or 7AL ignition box". I checked the output of both the factory TI and the MSD- factory dizzy output was .08 volts and the MSD was .05 volts. And that's just turning it by hand. My reasoning is that since the factory dizzy has a higher output it should trigger anything the MSD will. So I'm using a Summit branded Mallory box and it works great.
Just because the manufacturer says you need to use their whole system is not always a true statement. They want to sell their parts.
And I sure like being able to change the advance curve on the MSD. I had changed the curve on the TI dizzy, but the MSD is lots easier to change.

[BRUTAL64]

I put a MSD Pro-Billet distributor in Ol' Red. The factory TI distributor had some issues with the lower bushing- after 38 years of running a factory HV oil pump it was worn out. The instructions that came with it (the MSD), said "must be used with an MSD 6, 6AL, or 7AL ignition box". I checked the output of both the factory TI and the MSD- factory dizzy output was .08 volts and the MSD was .05 volts. And that's just turning it by hand. My reasoning is that since the factory dizzy has a higher output it should trigger anything the MSD will. So I'm using a Summit branded Mallory box and it works great.
Just because the manufacturer says you need to use their whole system is not always a true statement. They want to sell their parts.
And I sure like being able to change the advance curve on the MSD. I had changed the curve on the TI dizzy, but the MSD is lots easier to change.


Tim:
How about a diagram of how you wired the MSD dizzy to the Mallory box?

The Mallory box is a much better box than the any of the 6xx MSD boxes.

[TimAT]

I just hooked the two wires from the MSD dizzy to the two pickup wires on the box. Everything else was the same. I haven't tried the tach output from the box, Ol' Red's tach is mechanical, but that's the only thing I don't know about with the Mallory box.

[BRUTAL64]

I just hooked the two wires from the MSD dizzy to the two pickup wires on the box. Everything else was the same. I haven't tried the tach output from the box, Ol' Red's tach is mechanical, but that's the only thing I don't know about with the Mallory box.

The reason I wanted the diagram was to share it with other people. Since you had the dizzy and the box I thought you might want to share. But, that's OK.:rolleyes:







:sm_laughing:

[TimAT]

Here is a pair of pictures on hooking a Summit branded Mallory ignition box to an MSD distributor. Or, at least how I did it, and it worked for me.'

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/TimAT_vette/Dizzycopy.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/TimAT_vette/MSDtoMallory1copy.jpg

I mounted the box behind the left front inner fender- gets lots of air, and the leads were all long enough to reach where I needed them to go. The white and yellow wires I just did a coil and stow. Didn't cut them off just put some heat shrink over the ends, coiled them up and tied them off. MSD makes a harness that plugs into their distributor and will get the leads to where you may need them.

[BRUTAL64]

Here is a pair of pictures on hooking a Summit branded Mallory ignition box to an MSD distributor. Or, at least how I did it, and it worked for me.'

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/TimAT_vette/Dizzycopy.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/TimAT_vette/MSDtoMallory1copy.jpg

I mounted the box behind the left front inner fender- gets lots of air, and the leads were all long enough to reach where I needed them to go. The white and yellow wires I just did a coil and stow. Didn't cut them off just put some heat shrink over the ends, coiled them up and tied them off. MSD makes a harness that plugs into their distributor and will get the leads to where you may need them.



Thanks for that. Now, I'll look good because of all the work you have done.

Actually great work. This will help many people use a good box instead of the MSD 6xx crap.

Before you die hard MSD 6xx box fans tell me I'm wrong. I started using MSD in 78 and used them untill the early 90's. I have seen dozens of those crap boxes go bad. 6 of them went bad on me. Only one while sitting on the drive way. Save your self a lot of problems and use the Accel or Mallory multi spark boxes. :judge:


Does the LS7 idle any better?

Again great job on this.

[TimAT]

As long as I can keep the 1 and 3 plug wires off the header tubes it's fine. When those plug boots get cooked it gets a little snotty at idle. I had the Mallory box running on the 1st Bird run. That's where we found the lower bushing was dead. I put the MSD dizzy in after I got home.

[kwplot34]

I am running the Mallory ign box with my MSD dizzy and it wires up the same as the MSD 6a box that i use to have in the system. I am also using the Tach lead from the box,and as far as i can tell it's accurate,checked it against the digital read out on my timing light and the RPM's were the same.

Plug wires are Taylor :bigthumbsup: my ign system literally fried the Accell wires in a very short time :(

[BRUTAL64]

I am running the Mallory ign box with my MSD dizzy and it wires up the same as the MSD 6a box that i use to have in the system. I am also using the Tach lead from the box,and as far as i can tell it's accurate,checked it against the digital read out on my timing light and the RPM's were the same.

Plug wires are Taylor :bigthumbsup: my ign system literally fried the Accell wires in a very short time :(

As far as I have seen over the years, the MSD dizzys are really good. What you have is a very strong ign system. :bigthumbsup: