RX-Snake: Transmission

[Vettezuki]

joedls, or ayone else:

What are the ratios in the Top Loader:

1st ?
2nd ?
3rd ?
4th 1:1

I have a great spreadsheet for plugging this stuff into so you know what your mph/rpm curves are. I would really like to carefully consider the whole system for optimization, from engine through trans to axle and tire size

[joedls]

joedls, or ayone else:

What are the ratios in the Top Loader:

1st ?
2nd ?
3rd ?
4th 1:1

I have a great spreadsheet for plugging this stuff into so you know what your mph/rpm curves are. I would really like to carefully consider the whole system for optimization, from engine through trans to axle and tire size


Depends on whether it's a close ratio or wide ratio. I'm not sure which one yours is.

Wide ratio: 2.78 1.93 1.36 1 2.78 reverse
Close ratio: 2.32 1.69 1.29 1 2.32 reverse

[joedls]

joedls, or ayone else:

What are the ratios in the Top Loader:

1st ?
2nd ?
3rd ?
4th 1:1

I have a great spreadsheet for plugging this stuff into so you know what your mph/rpm curves are. I would really like to carefully consider the whole system for optimization, from engine through trans to axle and tire size

Here is a link to help you id the tranny to determine if it is a close or wide ratio: http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/idchart1.htm

[Vettezuki]

Depends on whether it's a close ratio or wide ratio. I'm not sure which one yours is.

Wide ratio: 2.78 1.93 1.36 1 2.78 reverse
Close ratio: 2.32 1.69 1.29 1 2.32 reverse

Here's what the trans mission is identified as:
HEH-P 01526
1964 Mustang 289 wide ratio 25-spline
8/20/64 to 12/30/64

[BRUTAL64]

Here's what the trans mission is identified as:
HEH-P 01526
1964 Mustang 289 wide ratio 25-spline
8/20/64 to 12/30/64


I've always prefered Wide rations over Close for the street. Now, on a Drag car the % of drop between gears should be ABOUT 19% per gear ( if my brain is working right ). Now that is what we used in the Seventies.

What is the current diff gear ration on the RX?

The Wide Ratio will be fine in most cases. We can make it work. We can not do better --as far as strenght for a 4 speed-- than that Top Loader.:thumbs_up:

Some poor anal restoration guy is looking for that trans for his 64 Mustang.:smack:

[Vettezuki]

I've always prefered Wide rations over Close for the street. Now, on a Drag car the % of drop between gears should be ABOUT 19% per gear ( if my brain is working right ). Now that is what we used in the Seventies.

What is the current diff gear ration on the RX?

The Wide Ratio will be fine in most cases. We can make it work. We can not do better --as far as strenght for a 4 speed-- than that Top Loader.:thumbs_up:

Some poor anal restoration guy is looking for that trans for his 64 Mustang.:smack:


Yeah, and he might be willing to pay a stupid price for it. Though I don't know about the 289 model. It's the 427s that go for big bucks.

According to JOe the ratios are:
Wide ratio: 2.78 1.93 1.36 1 2.78 reverse

See the engine thread. I posted a graph of mph:rpm assuming this gear box, 255/60x15 tires and a 3.73 rear end, which I *think* is what's in there now, but I need to check.

[joedls]

Yeah, and he might be willing to pay a stupid price for it. Though I don't know about the 289 model. It's the 427s that go for big bucks.

According to JOe the ratios are:
Wide ratio: 2.78 1.93 1.36 1 2.78 reverse

See the engine thread. I posted a graph of mph:rpm assuming this gear box, 255/60x15 tires and a 3.73 rear end, which I *think* is what's in there now, but I need to check.


I was offered $800 for that tranny from a guy that just wanted a toploader. It would be worth more to a guy that is looking for a correct date coded tranny.

[BRUTAL64]

I was offered $800 for that tranny from a guy that just wanted a toploader. It would be worth more to a guy that is looking for a correct date coded tranny.

$800.00??????? Damn, you must really LOVE Ben and the boys.:hail:

[joedls]

$800.00??????? Damn, you must really LOVE Ben and the boys.:hail:


Nah, they're too damn ugly for me. I just wanna drive the car and I couldn't let them put a SBC in that car. :rolling:

[BRUTAL64]

Nah, they're too damn ugly for me. I just wanna drive the car and I couldn't let them put a SBC in that car. :rolling:

Works for me. You going to be there Sat at Ricks????

[joedls]

Works for me. You going to be there Sat at Ricks????

Not sure yet. I'd like to go if I can get away. If I do, I'll drive my 07. Too cold for the convertible.

[Vettezuki]

So, this trans which was for a 289, is going to hold up to repeated 400HP+ sticky tire launches? I'm not going to feel bad when the Mazda rear end goes boom, but I'd feel a little bad to grenade a vintage part.

[joedls]

So, this trans which was for a 289, is going to hold up to repeated 400HP+ sticky tire launches? I'm not going to feel bad when the Mazda rear end goes boom, but I'd feel a little bad to grenade a vintage part.


Probably the weakest link is the output shaft. If it hasn't been converted to a 28 spline, then it probably should. Other than that, I don't think you can hurt it. And if you do, they're supposedly pretty easy to work on. I have never done transmission work myself, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge.

[Vettezuki]

Probably the weakest link is the output shaft. . . .

Oh, I know about that. :sm_up_there:

[joedls]

This is a little history of the Toploader from David Kee's website:



The Ford Toploader Transmission was introduced in 1964 to replace the Borg Warner T-10. This is the super-tough transmission built by Ford Engineers to stand up to just about anything demanded from it.

Internal parts of the Toploader are assembled through the top of the case instead of through a side cover, thus the name "Toploader." This design is actually stronger than a 4-speed box with a side cover. The shifter rails are mounted in bosses that are cast into the box itself, leaving the only function for the top cover to keep the lube inside.

The Toploader 4-speed transmission is of the fully synchronized type with all gears except the reverse sliding gear being in constant mesh. All forward-speed changes are accomplished with synchronizer sleeves instead of sliding gears. The synchronizers will enable quicker shifts, greatly reduce gear clash, and permit down-shifting into any forward-speed gear while the car is moving. All forward-speed gears in the transmission are the helical-type; however, the reverse sliding gear and the exterior of the first and second-speed synchronizer sleeve are spur-type gears.

The Toploader was used in production from 1964 to 1973 in almost every model Ford car and a few foreign cars.

A 1-1/16" input shaft was used in motors from the 200 c.i. to the 390 c.i. while the 427, 428 and 429 were available only with close ratio gears. The 1-1/16" input transmissions are available in both close and wide gear ratios.

The gear box was built in 3 case lengths. The 1964-65 Fairlane, T.V.R., Griffith, and Sunbeam Tiger case is 25-1/2" long. The AC Cobra with 427 and 428, all Mustangs, Falcons, Mavericks, Cougars, 1966-67 Fairlanes and Comets use 24 " transmissions, while all full size cars and the 428, 429 Cyclone and Torino use the 27" box. The 1964 Toploader used a small 4 hole maincase with the small O.D. bearing retainer. All 1965-73 cases were wide 8 hole cases with the large O.D. bearing retainer.

In 1964 and early 1965 a few transmissions used a 25 spline output shaft which proved to be defective. These were quickly dropped from production. Normally all motors 200 c.i. to 390 c.i. use the 28 spline output shaft. All 427, 428 and 429 motors use the 31 spline output shaft. There are a few exceptions to the above information. The toploader was produced in 133 different models.

[Vettezuki]

. . .

In 1964 and early 1965 a few transmissions used a 25 spline output shaft which proved to be defective. These were quickly dropped from production. Normally all motors 200 c.i. to 390 c.i. use the 28 spline output shaft. All 427, 428 and 429 motors use the 31 spline output shaft. . .

We have the 28 spline.

[BRUTAL64]

"as far as strenght for a 4 speed-- you can not do better than that Top Loader".

That's what I said the other day.:sm_up_there:

[joedls]

We have the 28 spline.

Great news!!! I'd run it the way it is. I had no problems shifting that tranny before I pulled it from my convertible.

[Vettezuki]

Say Joe, you wouldn't happen to have the shifter for this ting would ya?

[joedls]

Say Joe, you wouldn't happen to have the shifter for this ting would ya?


Nope. Long gone.

[Vettezuki]

Oky doky, this is the kind of thing where some extra dough from the outside (http://motorgen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1493) would make something at a higher level possible.

If we buy a new, basic Hurst shifter and install kit, it's about $300. However, there is a pretty slick sequential shifter setup for the Top Loader. Guess what? It's more. Like $700. But banging through gears sequentially with just a push or pull would be pretty awesome. Pretty much like this guy. :drive:

Check it out:
http://www.renagate.com/

http://www.renagate.com/images/shifters1_01.gif
http://www.renagate.com/images/shifters1_02.gif
http://www.renagate.com/images/shifters1_03.gif

[Vettezuki]

It looks like we're going to have a sponsorship that will allow us to use this shifter. Details to come shortly once worked out. :getdown:

[BRUTAL64]

It looks like we're going to have a sponsorship that will allow us to use this shifter. Details to come shortly once worked out. :getdown:

So, you're going BIG TIME?:rolleyes:

[Vettezuki]

So, you're going BIG TIME?:rolleyes:

In a very small way. :laugh:

[BRUTAL64]

In a very small way. :laugh:

Tiny steps.;)

[94cobra69ss396]

I got the trans cross member done tonight but I hope it will work. Joe, can you tell me if this is how the trans lines up with the shifter hole on your Mustang? I bolted the engine and trans together and set them in the car then tried to line them up using the SBC/T5 cross members as a guide. I set the engine as far back as I could so hopefully it will all work well.

This is a picture looking down through the shifter hole in the floor.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0217.JPG

Rear view of the cross member.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0218.JPG

Another angle.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0219.JPG

Passenger side of cross member.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0220.JPG

Drivers side.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0221.JPG

Tailshaft looking up.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0222.JPG

Drivers side of trans.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0225.JPG

Drivers side of engine.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0227.JPG

Passenger side of engine.
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0231.JPG

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0228.JPG
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0229.JPG
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0230.JPG
http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0232.JPG

[Vettezuki]

. . .

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0217.JPG

http://www.motorgen.com/pic/data/500/medium/100_0222.JPG



Looking at the way these shifter attach to that plate, the stick ain't coming up through the hole. But never fear, we have hole expanding technology!

[94cobra69ss396]

Looking at the way these shifter attach to that plate, the stick ain't coming up through the hole. But never fear, we have hole expanding technology!

I centered the trans in the transmission tunnel. If the trans were a T5 the shifter bolt to the top of the trans. Do we know if the shift is off to the side on the Top Loader or does it bolt to the side and end up above the trans center on top? I can offset the trans to the passenger side but I would also have to offset the engine as well.

[joedls]

I got the trans cross member done tonight but I hope it will work. Joe, can you tell me if this is how the trans lines up with the shifter hole on your Mustang? I bolted the engine and trans together and set them in the car then tried to line them up using the SBC/T5 cross members as a guide. I set the engine as far back as I could so hopefully it will all work well.




I have a T5 in my 65 Mustang and an automatic in the 68. To tell you the truth, I can't remember how the toploader lined up. It was too long ago, but I'm pretty sure it is centered in the tunnel. And actually that hole doesn't appear to be that far off. I think you'd have to open it up a little, but not much. Here's a pic of a shifter for a toploader on a 66 Mustang.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/joedls/la6.jpg

[Vettezuki]

I centered the trans in the transmission tunnel. If the trans were a T5 the shifter bolt to the top of the trans. Do we know if the shift is off to the side on the Top Loader or does it bolt to the side and end up above the trans center on top? I can offset the trans to the passenger side but I would also have to offset the engine as well.

See post 21 in this thread for the way the shifter will mount.

[Vettezuki]

We've concluded an agreement with Hall Fabrication and Racing (http://www.hallfabracing.com/index.htm) who will provide us with a Renagate Sequential shifter for Ford Top Loader.

[BRUTAL64]

We've concluded an agreement with Hall Fabrication and Racing (http://www.hallfabracing.com/index.htm) who will provide us with a Renagate Sequential shifter for Ford Top Loader.
:bigthumbsup:

[Vettezuki]

Renagate shifter received.

[Vettezuki]

Despite lean times I've manage to rustle up some extra side work.

I know when I bought my McLeodd clutch/flywheel assembly for the Vette it was advertised as "balanced."

Thanks to Joe, we have a clutch w/Pressure plate for the Toploader and it looks in ok condition. We don't have a flywheel. If I go into McLeodd (local) and ask for a balanced steel flywheel to the clutch bits I hand them, are they going to laugh hysterically? I don't see what exactly they would balance . . . unlike an internal rotating assembly.

[BRUTAL64]

Despite lean times I've manage to rustle up some extra side work.

I know when I bought my McLeodd clutch/flywheel assembly for the Vette it was advertised as "balanced."

Thanks to Joe, we have a clutch w/Pressure plate for the Toploader and it looks in ok condition. We don't have a flywheel. If I go into McLeodd (local) and ask for a balanced steel flywheel to the clutch bits I hand them, are they going to laugh hysterically? I don't see what exactly they would balance . . . unlike an internal rotating assembly.


If George is still there, talk to him. Great guy. I've been using Mcleod since 78. I ONCE went to another company and that will NEVER happen again. Just go to the back and ask for George.:drink:

[joedls]

Despite lean times I've manage to rustle up some extra side work.

I know when I bought my McLeodd clutch/flywheel assembly for the Vette it was advertised as "balanced."

Thanks to Joe, we have a clutch w/Pressure plate for the Toploader and it looks in ok condition. We don't have a flywheel. If I go into McLeodd (local) and ask for a balanced steel flywheel to the clutch bits I hand them, are they going to laugh hysterically? I don't see what exactly they would balance . . . unlike an internal rotating assembly.

Make sure you get a 50 oz flywheel.

[big2bird]

Make sure you get a 50 oz flywheel.

SFI approved.:thumbs_up:

[Vettezuki]

SFI approved.:thumbs_up:

We're scheduled to get this one when the dough flow opens up again

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCL-463100-50/

Don't know if its SFI approved or not, have to check.

[94cobra69ss396]

We're scheduled to get this one when the dough flow opens up again

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCL-463100-50/

Don't know if its SFI approved or not, have to check.

It is SFI 1.1 approved.

[big2bird]

It is SFI 1.1 approved.

Excellent. I like my feet.:sm_laughing:

[BRUTAL64]

Excellent. I like my feet.:sm_laughing:

Well, you do show them off to everyone.:smack:

[Vettezuki]

Picked up a clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, MC and throwout bearing from McLeod today. It's the good stuff. Once this thing is together it should work really well for a damn long time without a bunch of hassle. :thumbs_up:

[joedls]

Picked up a clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, MC and throwout bearing from McLeod today. It's the good stuff. Once this thing is together it should work really well for a damn long time without a bunch of hassle. :thumbs_up:

:thumbs_up::thumbs_up:

Tell me you got the slave cylinder, too.

[Vettezuki]

:thumbs_up::thumbs_up:

Tell me you got the slave cylinder, too.

No. It's the same setup as my Vette. There's no fork actuated by a slave cylinder but the MC connected directly to the Hydraulic throw out bearing. In a sense, the throw out bearing is the slave if that's what you mean. I'll post pics tonight. Once installed I'll have to get a hydraulic line made.

The only minor thing I'm slightly concerned about is that when I first spec'd these parts out I think I told them the motor was an old 302, not an 80s era one, which apparently it is according to Ron. It's definitely for Ford top loader, but is the flywheel bolt pattern the same. Any reason for concern?

[joedls]

No. It's the same setup as my Vette. There's no fork actuated by a slave cylinder but the MC connected directly to the Hydraulic throw out bearing. In a sense, the throw out bearing is the slave if that's what you mean. I'll post pics tonight. Once installed I'll have to get a hydraulic line made.

The only minor thing I'm slightly concerned about is that when I first spec'd these parts out I think I told them the motor was an old 302, not an 80s era one, which apparently it is according to Ron. It's definitely for Ford top loader, but is the flywheel bolt pattern the same. Any reason for concern?

I'm pretty sure they have the same bolt pattern, just different weight imbalances.

My 07 Mustang has a throw-out bearing that is integrated into the slave cylinder. It slips over the input shaft and bolts to the transmission.

I'm not picturing what you're talking about. Maybe when I see pics.

[Vettezuki]

I'm pretty sure they have the same bolt pattern, just different weight imbalances.

As long as it fits and works so I don't have to go back and explain that I'm stupid.

My 07 Mustang has a throw-out bearing that is integrated into the slave cylinder. It slips over the input shaft and bolts to the transmission.

That's what we're talking about. MC connects to that.

[joedls]

As long as it fits and works so I don't have to go back and explain that I'm stupid.



That's what we're talking about. MC connects to that.

Does the tranny have bolt holes where they're needed to bolt the slave?

[Vettezuki]

Does the tranny have bolt holes where they're needed to bolt the slave?

Guess we're gonna find out. That unit is specifically for a Ford Top Loader (supposedly).

Now that I think about it, what about the heads. Any difference between the old 60s 289/302 and 80s era 5.0 for head bolt pattern? I think you answered this and the answer was no, just don't recall. I was under the impression this was an old block til Ron and I tore it down.

[joedls]

Guess we're gonna find out. That unit is specifically for a Ford Top Loader (supposedly).

Now that I think about it, what about the heads. Any difference between the old 60s 289/302 and 80s era 5.0 for head bolt pattern? I think you answered this and the answer was no, just don't recall. I was under the impression this was an old block til Ron and I tore it down.

No difference for head bolt pattern, either.

[joedls]

I was under the impression this was an old block til Ron and I tore it down.

What gave you that impression? Not that it makes any difference.

http://motorgen.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12031&postcount=55

[Vettezuki]

What gave you that impression? Not that it makes any difference.

http://motorgen.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12031&postcount=55

It was just somehow my original impression. That's all. As long as it don't matter, it don't matter, which works best for me, that way I can be wrong without consequences. :smack:

[Shaolin Crane]

if help is needed installing the tranny i have a tranny jack and other cool tools that make it simpler

[Vettezuki]

if help is needed installing the tranny i have a tranny jack and other cool tools that make it simpler

Noted. Thank you.

I'm from the drop engine and trans as a unit at one time school but more resources is always good to know about. :drink:

[Shaolin Crane]

Noted. Thank you.

I'm from the drop engine and trans as a unit at one time school but more resources is always good to know about. :drink:

this is a screw type jack with angled load support and straps, so if the entire engine comes down as a whole then this could be used to support the entire thing at once, and im always down to turn wrenches

[Vettezuki]

. . .and im always down to turn wrenches

Great. How's today June 15 from this late afternoon, early evening? Ever pressed out wheel bearings? I have a press and the hubs off the car, but I'm not clear how they come aapart. Bunch of other stuff to do still. Dirty for the most part.

[Vettezuki]

Here's some pics of the goodies I got today.

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_02.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_01.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_03.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_06.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_05.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_04.jpg

http://motorgen.com/pic/data/771/McCleod_07.jpg

[Shaolin Crane]

Great. How's today June 15 from this late afternoon, early evening? Ever pressed out wheel bearings? I have a press and the hubs off the car, but I'm not clear how they come aapart. Bunch of other stuff to do still. Dirty for the most part.

mmm thats a little too soon of notice, generally im able when i get a 2-3 day notice, but yeah i can do all that too, and i noticed you got brake stuff, lemme know if you need brake flare tools and such

[Vettezuki]

mmm thats a little too soon of notice, generally im able when i get a 2-3 day notice, but yeah i can do all that too, and i noticed you got brake stuff, lemme know if you need brake flare tools and such

I figured as much, just thought I'd throw it out and see what happens. :smack:

[94cobra69ss396]

The old 302 uses a 28oz flywheel and balancer and the new 302 use 50oz. Do you have a part number for flywheel? I'll look it up and see what it comes up as.

[94cobra69ss396]

On a side note, write down the SFI number for the flywheel. We'll need it for the tech card once we start racing it. Same goes for anything that has an SFI number in it.

[Vettezuki]

The old 302 uses a 28oz flywheel and balancer and the new 302 use 50oz. Do you have a part number for flywheel? I'll look it up and see what it comes up as.

It's the 50oz (hence the 50):

463100-50

[Vettezuki]

On a side note, write down the SFI number for the flywheel. We'll need it for the tech card once we start racing it. Same goes for anything that has an SFI number in it.

Noted. The scatter shield had an SFI number on a majorly faded sticker. I say had, because when we didn't have any money, we did things like paint it an exquisite Ford Red.

[Shaolin Crane]

The old 302 uses a 28oz flywheel and balancer and the new 302 use 50oz. Do you have a part number for flywheel? I'll look it up and see what it comes up as.

Sure but just cause it an old block doesnt mean you cant use a 50oz flywheel, or vise versa

[Shaolin Crane]

I figured as much, just thought I'd throw it out and see what happens. :smack:

Yep, you have my cell number, give me a call whenever you plan on working on it

[joedls]

Might wanna check the balancer. I don't remember what I had on there. But I think it had a 28 oz weight on it. IIRC you could just switch out the counterweight to a 50 oz. if you needed to.

[Vettezuki]

Might wanna check the balancer. I don't remember what I had on there. But I think it had a 28 oz weight on it. IIRC you could just switch out the counterweight to a 50 oz. if you needed to.

It's already dropped off with FPS. I'm sure they'll tell me if I need to change something.

[94cobra69ss396]

Sure but just cause it an old block doesnt mean you cant use a 50oz flywheel, or vise versa

Correct but the crank makes a difference. If the crank is for 28oz we have to use 28oz balancer and flywheel.

[Vettezuki]

Correct but the crank makes a difference. If the crank is for 28oz we have to use 28oz balancer and flywheel.

Do you remember? I thought it was all 50 oz. I called the place I dropped it off at, a tech glanced and said it looked all matched up (err, don't know what that means.) At the the moment, the only thing I'm 100% sure is 50 oz is the FW. :huh:

[94cobra69ss396]

Do you remember? I thought it was all 50 oz. I called the place I dropped it off at, a tech glanced and said it looked all matched up (err, don't know what that means.) At the the moment, the only thing I'm 100% sure is 50 oz is the FW. :huh:

Unless the crank was changed from stock it should be 50oz. The machine shop will know so I wouldn't worry about it.

[94cobra69ss396]

Noted. The scatter shield had an SFI number on a majorly faded sticker. I say had, because when we didn't have any money, we did things like paint it an exquisite Ford Red.

What make is the scatter shield?

[Vettezuki]

What make is the scatter shield?

Ruh roh. Don't remember. Have to check. Hopefully I did't remove all evidence of its manufacture. Joe picked it up at a swap meet for low bucks. But it is a scatter shield (heavy as all hell) and did at one point anyway, have an SFI rating on the side.

[joedls]

Now that I think about it more, I'm sure it had a 50 oz. balancer. I remember when I took out the 289, I couldn't use the balancer or the flexplate that I had. I had to buy new ones because of the 50 oz. imbalance.